General Discussion Thread

[MountainTroll]

Hi all,
I am new to the guild, but avoided the "say hello in the entrance hall" post. I thought I'd slink around the edge of the walls, until I got to the Mead hall, and say my hellos here.
(This is me slinking = )

I have watched others play all the games since the Shogun days, but am not a gamer myself. (Were there gasps in the room at that admission?)

I am interested in writing though, and heard about Tamur's workshop. I thought I'd give it a go. I really liked Assignment 4, by the way. It was a challenge to use objects and weather in two totally different ways. It was like a puzzle. I thought it was fun.

I hope to get to know the personalities behind the avatars, and hope to improve my writing skills. Thanks for letting me hang out in the Mead Hall!

[Ironsword]

Hi Mountaintroll!

I really enjoy the writing side of things too. The two great merits of the MHWS is that you get feedback on your own prose and also get to see how others tackled the task too. So more's the better!

[Timsup2nothin]

To me 'not a gamer' isn't so much an admission as an eye opening concept, as in 'wow, what could I get done if I were not a gamer?'

Welcome to the board and MHWS!!

[Tamur]

Hello MountainTroll, and welcome! That was fairly sneaky to skip through the entrance hall -- Martok must have been dozing.

I hope you enjoy your stay, and thanks for posting for this last lesson - great writing intro too!

[MountainTroll]

So, who is Martok? Gaurdian of the Guild Gates, ready to pounce on newbies? :)

And a cheers to you as well, Ironsword
Thanks for the welcome.

And Timsup2nothin, I had to laugh at "what could I get done if I were not a gamer". I admire gamers for their loyalty to making sure there is fun and leisure consistently in their day. -I am working on being more "gamer-like". Funny how everyone tries for the perfect balance. Perhaps being a forum member will have some gaminess rub off. (But not in the smelly sense of the word!)

And Tamur, thanks for the hello! I hope to stick it out for a while anyways... if you start requiring full length novels, I might run away. :)

[Tamur]

Comments up...

I have to admire the vastly different results from this assignment, and overall very high quality. Nice work everyone!

I do hope you're all talking the chance to read over each other's writing. It's very interesting to see a couple of similarities but mostly a huge difference in the way you all handle the same problem.

edit: Martok is a Moderator here, and is very active welcoming people in the Entrance Hall. A great guy, you should say hi to him sometime

And no, no novel requirements. Yet.

To be honest, I'll be plum disappointed if one of you doesn't get a story published, some really nice writing going on.

[Monk]

edit: Martok is a Moderator here, and is very active welcoming people in the Entrance Hall. A great guy, you should say hi to him sometime

Should you smell camels while you approach him, just nod and smile. It is not the camel you see that you should fear, rather the camel that you cannot see...

Also welcome to the Mead Hall MountainTroll! Tamur has almost taken over the place as of late with his writing course, but that's fine by me, i know this place is in good hands with him. I just wish i had more time to take part in it myself.

Enjoy your stay!

[Tamur]

Just a note to everyone to say: I will be away from the keyboard and the Org through Wednesday evening next week. I was tempted to post the next assignment before I leave, but have talked myself out of that since this current assignment should be enough to worry about without more distraction.

This means that the next assignment will be up on Thursday next week, and the assignment 5 posting thread won't be locked till Wednesday evening.

Happy weekend to everyone.

[Prince Cobra]

I'm happy that this is active. I'll join again once the cursed exams are over.

[Tamur]

We'll look forward to seeing you Stephen, and best of luck with exams.

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm impressed by my inability to follow direction. In the assignment post thread Tamur clearly says 'Once you're done posting your writing, head over to the discussion thread and tell people what you thought of the assignment!' When I noticed that, which was of course long after one would expect, I edited this off the end of my post and moved it here...


This was indeed a challenging assignment. In journalism character background is a matter of sifting through a swarm of 'facts' and picking the ones that are at least marginally verifiable and support the direction you are taking. Here I think the background I came up with is horribly thin...but everything I thought to add to it would probably be better placed in backstory for additional characters. For example, I gave way more than a moments thought to names for his wife and other guys in the band, but eventually realized they would be major characters and those would be their stories, not his.

I'm left wondering if I misunderstood the entire idea, but I gave it my best shot.

[Ironsword]

^^Yes, I thought it difficult too. My effort is less factual than yours timsup2nothin, and I wonder whether my background and character disconnects are too vague.

[MountainTroll]

I thought this assignment (5)was initially overwhelming... but once I found a character I was interested in myself, the details started rolling. I think listing the disconnects is an interesting way to break down a story into what a character is battling. I have had trouble coming up with ones in the past, maybe this is the excercise I need to do more frequently.

Also, I had trouble knowing how much detail to put into the backstory, without actually starting to write the story. Overall though, I thought it was fun.

I got a chance to read through everyone's assignment 4's. It seemed as if people were either really good at writing depressing settings or really good at writing exuberant ones. (I think TimsuptoNothin had a great happy one with his briefcase story!) -But I didn't see any that had two strong pairings (including me!) I think overall people wrote better as depressed. Why do you think that is? Or do you disagree? Maybe people notice their surroundings and other people when they are down, but when they are happy, just zip through life not taking time to notice the details? Maybe that's why the best writers seem to stuggle with depression or whatever issues. So, maybe the trick is (if you are not a naturally down sort of person) is to become more analytical during happy moments. I'm going to try this... I don't know if it will work.
Maybe it would suck the happiness out.

If I post again sounding very depressed, you will know not to try this at home. :)

[Ironsword]

...I got a chance to read through everyone's assignment 4's. It seemed as if people were either really good at writing depressing settings...

Hah! In my case so true! I'm not really a depressed, miserable loner, but often I fall into the trap of believing that loss, pain, regret are more powerful than joy, love, excitement etc. I'm going to try and inject more of these 'happy' emotions in the upcoming assignments.

-Also, I never listed my characters disconnects/conflicts in assignment 5, rather just tried to work them into the story. They are, in my mind at least as follows;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

- No matter how good a craftsman he is, the empty shelf/lost urn, a metaphor for his family, will always remain so. Even his great skill cannot alter that.
- To keep continuing, he must sell the timeline of pots he's crafted, thus he is faced with the choice between keeping both his happy and traumatic past or the uncertain future.
- He needs closure of some sort, symbolised by the beard cutting and the repetitve nature of his days, but he feels unable to until he re-creates the urn that fills the empty shelf, which as mentioned earlier, is unattainable.
- His skill, his greatest asset has made him a recluse in his pursuit of recreating his old happiness, yet if he took a moment to look outside his workshop, he might find that which he hopes for most; The church notice, the urn and hence closure.

[Timsup2nothin]

I got a chance to read through everyone's assignment 4's. It seemed as if people were either really good at writing depressing settings or really good at writing exuberant ones. (I think TimsuptoNothin had a great happy one with his briefcase story!) -But I didn't see any that had two strong pairings (including me!) I think overall people wrote better as depressed. Why do you think that is?

Having been pointed out as the exception I think I can answer this question. The modern human is conditioned to avoid being out of the ordinary, and the ordinary is something fairly close to depressed. Since it is automatic to seek evidence for whatever we have chosen to believe we see depressing things much more clearly than other things.

As an experiment, commit for one week to answer the endless streams of 'how are you?' that we all meet with 'marvelous!' or 'excellent!' or 'terrific!'. You will stop traffic at the checkout line in the supermarket. Be prepared to be stared at. Be prepared for looks that clearly call you a liar. No one will want to believe you, because they want to believe that 'okay', or 'oh, fine I guess' is the best anyone is doing so they don't feel like they are missing out.

If you yourself can't shake the feeling that you are lying for the sake of an experiment it probably won't work. The people you say it to will be left with 'that poor soul is so miserable they have to put on a front just to get through the day'.

This is where I operate from every day. When someone says 'how are you today?' I don't take it as a request for a report on the day up to then, I take it as an opportunity to predict how the rest of my day will go. From there it is hard to ask for anything less than 'great'.

The next step is to learn that it is up to you to make your prediction true. I would say 'good luck', but luck has nothing to do with it.

[Tamur]

...the ordinary is something fairly close to depressed...

I know a lot of fairly-close-to-depressed people at work, and anti-depressant medication has been nothing short of a cultural phenomenon. So there's plenty of evidence that might point to what you're saying.

However, I respectfully disagree - I don't think it's a universal truth. There are, for example, a lot of five-year-old children playing with friends who wouldn't qualify. I don't mean that flippantly. If you've been near five-year-old children anytime recently, you know that depressed is a term that can only be applied in rare cases. What turns a playful five-year-old into a depressed sixty-year-old?

Anyone's guess is as good as another, and until I have a 10000 sample study, I'm not going to go out on any limbs! Interesting topic though.

[Ironsword]

After reading assignment 6, I think I've got too far ahead of myself in assignment 5...

Still, i'll try and figure something out!

[Timsup2nothin]

I know a lot of fairly-close-to-depressed people at work, and anti-depressant medication has been nothing short of a cultural phenomenon. So there's plenty of evidence that might point to what you're saying.

However, I respectfully disagree - I don't think it's a universal truth. There are, for example, a lot of five-year-old children playing with friends who wouldn't qualify. I don't mean that flippantly. If you've been near five-year-old children anytime recently, you know that depressed is a term that can only be applied in rare cases. What turns a playful five-year-old into a depressed sixty-year-old?

Anyone's guess is as good as another, and until I have a 10000 sample study, I'm not going to go out on any limbs! Interesting topic though.

I'm willing to go out on this limb. What turns playful five year olds into average anti-depressant popping adults is a steady stream of instructions to 'grow up'. 'Growing up', they are led to believe, includes NOT being playful, NOT standing out from the crowd, Not openly asking for what they want, NOT being overtly happy, or sad for that matter. It also includes NOT going out on any limbs, by the way.

Five year old children hate to go to bed because they think they might miss something. They pop up in the morning as soon as their eyes open because they want to get on with life. Adults generally believe they get up because 'they have to'. If I ever let myself believe that again I'd just as soon die in my sleep.

[Tamur]

It also includes NOT going out on any limbs, by the way.

Ha! Touché, good point.

I think I agree with you. The social pressure for all these behaviours (more like lack of behaviours) is fairly intense. And that is interesting to think of how driven young children are to milk every last moment out of the day, and wake up as early as possible - how different from the usual office worker who can't stand the thought of the alarm clock going off.

There's a story in there somewhere - or many thousands of stories more like.

Well said, thanks for the thought food.

[Timsup2nothin]

To get back on topic here and away from my philosophy...

I just read the next assignment and I have to say I've now been pushed from moderately surprised to outright dumbfounded.

I saw this 'MHWS', and figured it would turn out as some sort of 'write a few paragraphs and pat each other on the backs' confidence builder. Not really much use to me since lack of confidence is not one of my notable weaknesses, but harmless and fun.

I was wrong. I've paid for courses that did not cut so clearly into the heart of the matter as Tamur is doing here for free. I don't know where he came from, but I for one am really glad I lucked into being here when he came along.

[Ironsword]

Seconded.

It's really given me some focus.

[Tamur]

You shall work, writing slaves!

Seriously, glad you're enjoying the ride. I perhaps should have given people more of a warning at the front end of this, that it wouldn't be a pat-on-the-back sort of experience. I do hope it's enjoyable even if it's a stretch at times.

And Ironsword, sorry I somehow missed your post a bit ago...

After reading assignment 6, I think I've got too far ahead of myself in assignment 5...

Yours was definitely a very complete backstory! Nicely done. I'll have comments up by about 06 GMT tomorrow, but yes, you went well above the call of duty In your case, I'd suggest taking a different character for assignment 6.

[Timsup2nothin]

Completely back on topic. I have a feeling that I'm on track here, but I may be just heading off into a field to become a jumble of boxcars. If so, slap me back in the right general direction please.

With this character, use each of the four numbered techniques above (summary, habit, self-portrait, physical) to introduce your character.

After much flailing, I have seized on the word 'introduce'. In introducing the character I may or may not include everything I have in his backstory. In fact, upon further flailing, I probably won't.

My purpose is to present the character in a way that doesn't conflict with the backstory, since that will eventually come out. Also, most importantly, in a way that engages a reader in the character. Probably not jumping directly into the character's conflicts before getting the reader engaged, so leave them out when introducing the character. Hmmmm. My feeling that I was on track is fading fast, but I might be getting on track now.

Sorry for blatantly brainstorming all over the place here, but I really needed that! Again, if I am completely off track please say so...

[Tamur]

Yes yes, you're perfectly correct. I'm going to edit the lesson material right now to clear that up. Thanks for pointing the muddy waters out!

When introducing a character for this exercise, don't attempt to introduce disconnects or backstory unless they fit well. Your introduction of the character can be completely separate from both disconnects and backstory, and should simply give the "flavour" of the character. It should act as a teaser, leaving your reader in a state of wishing he or she knew more.

[Tamur]

Feedback on #5 is up, only a few hours late... *cough*

Thanks to each of you who participated. It is a stretch to define a character to this level.

It was interesting to see the different styles. Ironsword's was so detailed, a story in itself, while Timsup2nothin and MountainTroll went for a more loose style. Either of these work.

Also, note the differences in time focus. MountainTroll focused on the near-present, doing a complete but sketchy coverage of the long-past and middle-past. Ironsword on the other hand had significant coverage of the long-past and the near-present but the space in the middle (between the family deaths and the near-present) is left blank.

[Ironsword]

Ironsword

Ed. 1: Some very concisely stated conflicts and problems, like "his life now for his life then" and "the self-indulgent works of a fading man". Also "he was again trying to shape the great urn" was a great way to tie it all together. This is a sobering character - one who I want to suddenly discover a reason to live and make beautiful art. But realistically that won't happen will it?

Ed. 2: This is brilliant as a character description. At the end of it I feel deeply for the fellow, and feel that I've come to know him, his challenges, and his current situation well. Using this as a springboard into the story would be a fail-safe way to bring that same feeling - lack of closure, endless days trying to find the past, the world outside blowing by without him noticing.


A couple of questions and observations:

- the man has clear dilemmas, and ones that most readers could feel well. But with so much past to uncover in the story, what will move the reader forward through the narrative?

- the resolution will need a great deal of weight to balance out the strong feeling of loss in the character and his situation, so the story will be tremendously heavy without some sort of leavening (another present-day character, or nature) --- I had to get a bread-making metaphor in here!

Thanks for the feedback Tamur (ED1?) and the enigmatic ED2. This story originally came from assignment three, I missed the deadline, but thought it applicable here. Though in assignment three, the urn was replaced by a bowl. I expanded it for this to create a backstory.

Also, I've not given up on this potter, I would possibly introduce an apprentice (One that reminds him either of Molly or Tom) so he may yet get closure.
I was trying to get a timeless feel too, but I don't know how well that came across. ie. What era did you guys picture him in?

[Timsup2nothin]

Ed. 1 This was well done. I can easily see it becoming a screenplay and a movie because the character of the band leader is very vivid. The conflicts are clear and intriguing. It's very amusing too, which makes me think the result will be a comedy.

Ed. 2 This is a great character introduction. I come away from it with a basic feel for the character, but primarily sympathy for him and his predicament. It points me towards the inevitable discovery of his bad habit, or the possible escape he makes through some major life change.
A couple of unresolved questions:

- Is he a solo robber?

- When does he do the robberies? Broad daylight when he has more chance of being caught on the run, but less chance of having to make excuses to his wife? Or night-time, when he has less chance of being caught but more need to make excuses to his wife about false gigs, etc?

- How does he deal with the robbery money? Does he hide it somewhere in his house? Deposit it overseas? Deposit in a US bank (at least) would be risky due to the treasury serial numbers. How has he been able to keep his wife from finding the stash?

I expect that in expanding Rockin' Ron into the main character of a story the bank robbery scenes will provide high action points, and they will illustrate the answers to most of the 'how to' type questions. Seeing him distribute cash to the other band members, then give his wife the check to deposit without taking any cash back will present a bit of a mystery until the first time a robbery is shown.

I'm glad he came across as likable rather than just a lazy villain. Holding that tone in the face of the obvious criminal behavior will be the biggest challenge.

[Tamur]

I've not given up on this potter

Very good to hear. I was tempted after this assignment to encourage everyone to stay with these characters and use the rest of the course to finish off a 40-page story about them. Unfortunately that doesn't work for the writers who will be joining us in July and early August, but I would very much like to see some of this great character work developed more.

What era did you guys picture him in?

I pictured the 1930s/1940s, with the whiskey and the note blowing by the window. I asked my editor friend just now and she said she had pictured as contemporary.

...Holding that tone in the face of the obvious criminal behavior will be the biggest challenge.

Yes, that will be a challenge. But I think he's in that "between a rock and hard place" spot that a lot of people could identify with, so as long as he doesn't appear to be an abusive scumbag or something repulsive, he should be a nicely flawed character to root for.

[Tamur]

Just a reminder for participants that Lesson 6 assignments are due soon. The current week's assignment deadline was extended to Thursday GMT 00.01 due to my AFK-ness last week.

I've had a couple of requests via PM to extend the deadline to Tuesday at midnight on the other side of the world (NZST or UZ11, i.e. GMT -/+12). We may start that with lesson 7.

[Timsup2nothin]

Just an observation on deadlines, and perhaps my own dysfunctionalness...

0001 deadlines have always made me crazy. I relate to the 'Wednesday' before I relate to the time, then have to figure out that I really only have until the end of the day Tuesday...then 0001 Wednesday GMT has the poor grace to fall somewhere in the middle of Tuesday so I don't really even have until the end of the day!