Quote Originally posted by favedave:
(If you're talking about longbows in MP, well, I have no idea what use they are since I don't play MP.)[/QUOTE]
The entire thread is about the merits of longbows IN MP. SP IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Many units that are useful against a computer are simply not useful at all against an intelligent human opponent. Don't crowd this thread about SP crap when the thread is about MP unit balance.
I think the key to improving archer units in MP is to:
a) increase unit size
b) decrease unit cost
One way of doing this, potentially, without throwing SP balance completely out of whack, is to offer a florin disocunt for the first 4 ranged units you buy (50% off or something).
Increasing size would neccessarily affect SP as well, so it's probably not as good an option.
Quote Originally posted by Soapyfrog:
I think the key to improving archer units in MP is to:
a) increase unit size
b) decrease unit cost
One way of doing this, potentially, without throwing SP balance completely out of whack, is to offer a florin disocunt for the first 4 ranged units you buy (50% off or something).
Increasing size would neccessarily affect SP as well, so it's probably not as good an option.[/QUOTE]
What about increasing the ammo capacity?
I used Longbows for the first time a couple days ago in my Danish campaign (hired mercs), and quite frankly I was shocked at how they ran out of ammo after a minute of combat. 28 rounds ONLY? Historically, that did not sound right.
So, I've been doing some research. And this is what I've found so far:
1) During Edward I's conquest of Wales, English longbowmen were issued approx. 100 arrows each (NOT 28!)
2) Crossbowmen during the same campaign were issued the same amount of bolts (~100) as well, despite having twice the cost of arrows.
3) Moving decades later to Agincourt, just to give some additional perpective: English longbowmen went into battle with two standard quivers (24 each) on their belts, for a total of 48. BUT they also resupplied during the battle, either running back to the supply train for more arrows or having runners bring up more.
4) Experts say that the English shot a total of 500,000 arrows during the battle of Agincourt. They had 7000 longbowmen present. Doing the math, that means each longbowman shot about 77 arrows each...for more than 28!
I could probably dig up a whole lot more stats if I had the time, but I think this is sufficient to show that 28 rounds per archer in MTW is woefully innaccurate.
What I propose is to give all archers and crossbowmen an even 4 quarrels (96 rounds) each. An easy mod to do I would think, by just changing the Ammo stat in the Units txt file. Skirmishers I would just give 2 quarrels, or 48 (since they are not "pure" archers, it is reasonable to surmise their ammo requirements would be less). Improves gameplay, improves realism: win-win.
Coucy
Sire de Coucy
Something concrete, at last. Thanks for the historical research, I hope it helps! And I still agree the amount of arrows should increase!
Oh dear, the poor, poor AI.
Besides which increasing ammo would not help in the slightest for MP games, for reasons covered already quite abundantly in this topic and others.
Well if it is possible to adjust the ammo count for each individual missile unit then you could always give longbowmen a healthy increase in ammunition, say double or triple the current value. This would also help justify their greater cost.
Of course if ammunition loads are global values pertaining to all units of a given type (archer, crossbow/arbalest, javelin, etc.) then you'd have to deal with the consequences of giving everyone an ammo boost.
"Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt
Idealism is masturbation, but unlike real masturbation idealism actually makes one blind. - Fragony
Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)
Quote Originally posted by Spino:
Well if it is possible to adjust the ammo count for each individual missile unit then you could always give longbowmen a healthy increase in ammunition, say double or triple the current value. This would also help justify their greater cost.
Of course if ammunition loads are global values pertaining to all units of a given type (archer, crossbow/arbalest, javelin, etc.) then you'd have to deal with the consequences of giving everyone an ammo boost.[/QUOTE]
No, it does appear to be individual rather than global. There is an individual line for each unit in the unit txt file, and each has its own "Ammo" number.
Coucy
Sire de Coucy
It might sound like an odd thing to say but maybe if it's historical accuracy you are after turning on infinite ammunition is the way to go? After all the game doesn't take into account things like supply trains, taking arrows from fallen comrades or simply advancing, digging the arrows out of the enemy and firing them again.
Well, I guess that would be significant if the amount of ammo were ACTUALLY a problem, but it's not, since you'd be hard pressed to get a unit to fire off all it's ammo in an MP game, measly 28 shots or no.
I think upping the unit size would be a better solution.
Quote Originally posted by favedave:
Longbows are an important part of a SP army.
Remember, it's combined tactics that win the day.
(If you're talking about longbows in MP, well, I have no idea what use they are since I don't play MP.)[/QUOTE]
How many friggin' times do we have to say "mp" before you figure it out?
A LOT.. let's say it again..
MP!
Since changing the way in which ranged units work in MP will almost inevitably have a knock on effect on SP then both should be discussed. Plus the thread, as started in the original post, was merely about the relative strengths of units, not the arena in which they were used. IMO certain folks should be more temperate in their posts.
------------------
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"
so, what you're telling me is that this thread is about MP only?
Silly me! How could I have missed that in the subject line?
You know, that thing at the top that says what the thread is about.....
PAF
Lional of Cornwall
proud member of the Round Table Knights
___________________________________
Death before dishonour.
"If you wish to weaken the enemy's sword, move first, fly in and cut!" - Ueshiba Morihei O-Sensei
This thread concerns MP.
Now you know, in case you missed the four million other times it was posted.
Don't mind that silly child.
Anyway, this and about a hundred other threads here just prove the point that the units need separate sp and mp stats/costs. It is truly the only way to achieve satisfactory balance/usefulness for all the units for singleplayer and multiplayer without one upsetting the other.
[This message has been edited by JRock (edited 10-18-2002).]
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