Surprisingly bad units

[QuintusSertorius]

This is the opposite to the other thread (which is again mirrored on TWC). This is dedicated to expensive, rare and supposedly "elite" units which are actually a waste of mnai. Or even more regular ones that are supposed to be good, but simply aren't. Overpriced, underpowered, and generally not worthy of their salt.

They're not elite, but Roman equites are rubbish.



Not that I have an issue with it, Roman cavalry wasn't very good historically. But they're not fast, don't have good stamina, and aren't really very good in melee either. Which makes them no good at any battlefield role, really.

I'm starting to think Thessalian Heavy Cavalry aren't worth the money either, they tire ridiculously fast and they're no good if they get caught in a melee, even with all that armour.



I get more bang for buck from medium or even light cavalry. Even on the shock charge at which they supposedly excel.

While I've had a better time with them recently using them in their proper role, Thureophoroi are quite weak considering their stats.



As flankers they're alright, but they can't hold a line. I use them because they were used historically, rather than them being a unit of choice. Though they always seem to recover a lot of their injuries after a battle.

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.



Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

What else is there that's poor value for money?

[konny]

I've heard that the Pheraspidai/Peltastai Makedonikai are supposedly elite, but aren't.



Not experienced them myself to be able to say one way or the other.

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?



Here are some that did not impress me very much:



Both might have their use when closing in on the enemy - but that would require a battlefield free of any missle units, including javelins.



Useful with long pikes and phalanx ability; without it absolutly pathetic. Always hire classical Hoplites or real Thorakitai instead.



Way to weak for their price.



The best looking mounted bodyguard ingame, but no match for their Parthian or Saka counterparts.

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't what you use these guys for, but they are meant to storm towns, kill KH family members, protect the king's bodyguard from spearmen and the like nasty swordfighters tasks. They are not meant to hold the line against cavalry, due to missing spears, and not against phalanx due to their small numbers. They are best used in a pitched fight where they can't be outmanouvered or larger enemy units cannot use their superior numbers to flank them. That would be first of all cleaning the way from the breach to the town's center. Have ever you seen what they do regular Peltasts in a situation like that?

I've never used them, so I'm not sure what people were doing with them to say that.

I did see the AI use them to force a bridge crossing (all good so far), but then charge my front line of spearmen (dumb).

I agree with you on Drapanai - scary if they can get into melee, but hit them at range and they drop like flies.

[Swordmaster]

Thureophoroi will break under pressure, that's a given. So when you make sure they don't come under pressure, they will do the job. Problem is that this makes them rather unreliable and in need of constant supervision on the battlefield.

The main prize, however, in this thread will probably go to...



...any and all elephants. Sure, they make a big impression, but losing them to a band of skirmishers usually doesn't, turning your treasury into a laughing stock. Only recruit them when you swim in money, and on the battlefield, keep them far away from your own troops, in case they run amok.

[konny]

....or artillery. I have never bothered to buy them in EB (did so once in BI) but the AI has them from time to time. It cannot keep up with the army if any kind of manouvering is required and needs constant protection from cavalry because even Hippakontistai will kill it. On the few occasions it got some shots away, the result was not as damaging as if my units had been under fire of experinced slingers.

[Tellos Athenaios]

With the exception of Ridanz (Curepos much better bang for the bucks, especially in a spear-heavy enviroment -- and both aren't elite anyways), I get to chuckle every time I see such thread. What it is you guys do to you troops I don't know; but there is something called playing to strengths.

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

Elephants can be very useful; it's a matter of timing mostly. A unit which is able to quickly decide a drawn-out fight on the flanks is always useful -- I've had units of the simpler elephant types crash into my own infantry at times (custom battles). For comparison: a unit of Triballoi was reduced within seconds to a mere 75 men on hughe, which is something not even heavy AP infantry can do.

[konny]

Which should mean a combination of Thrakioi Doryphoroi, Komatai and Falxmen + some support units will make a cheap regular army, able to stand up to much heavier counterparts and do some damage to elite ones too. Shouldn't take such an army out to the steppes, though.

Naked spearmen: use them for their morale effects, and the occasional javelin hurled over the battle lines. Cheap man's Gaesatae -- but 'scares enemy' is a very valuable attribute where they come from.

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Iphikratous Hoplitai: they just became more useful, just like the Sweboz Pikemen and others who had their Short-pikes removed. Exceptional anti cavalry material, very few units of their price tag are actually able to stand up against Hetairoi and the like. Guard mode is your friend, paying some notice to their formation depth when deploying them too.

The difference between Iphikratians and Germanic pikemen is that the Sweboz variant is the only decently armoured unit for a reasonable price available to this faction. That makes them so important. The Greeks have Thureophoroi, Classical Hoplites and Thorakitai that can do anything the non-phalanx Iphikratians can do, and a lot more. That is, a unit of Iphikratians against Classicals will be killed in 9 out of 10 time, the same goes for Thorakitai Phalanx vs. Thorakitai Spearmen.

No, I can't see any reason recruiting them without phalanx mode. A weaker underhand spearmen formation is definitly not needed for the Greeks.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Both units will be killed very fast by archers before they can do any damage. The flaxmen even have no shields what might provide at least some protection against anything sharp flying through the air. And that doesn't even require Skythians or the like, Toxotai or Skutjanz and the like do this easy job very well. The moral effect of naked units isn't so dramatic on fresh units, what means that they must be kept alive long enough to make "shaken" units routing.

Which is what you use Doryphoroi for. Not overly expensive troops, big shields, javelins and reasonable morale for their cost. The Falxmen shoud enjoy the protection of the Doryphoroi, and when it gets to melee it should be the other way around.

[Tyrfingr]

The scythed chariots blows big time, but then again, that is no surprise...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

[QuintusSertorius]

One has to use the units according to their supposed strengths. I do not understand QuintusSertorius.

- Hippeis Thessalikoi are one of the best cavalry units. They have a good charge and do not tire so rapidly as heavier cavalry does, and fares better in melee than Thraikioi Prodromoi (which I equally adore). Do not run your cavalry into spears, or keep them in any protracted melee. Any bugger with a knife can stab it into an unarmoured horse's belly, that's basically how it is.

I only ever charge my cavalry into the back of engaged, and tired infantry. I don't leave them in melee either. I know how to use cavalry, I get great results doing exactly that with "light" cavalry like Curepos or Illyrian Hippeis as well as mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi. They don't get tired after a couple of charges as those useless Thessalians do.

Thrakian Prodromoi are simply better value for money, and indeed better units. Lance-wise, they're identical. Thrakians have a point better sword skill, and theirs have a higher lethality. They have a point worse defense skill and armour than the Thessalians and their morale isn't as good. But the real killer is that they have ridiculously good stamina, and can full-charge again and again. None of that lumbering tired charge that hardly does anything after your second time.

- Peltastai Makedonikoi are awesome Sword-wielders. They are an assault-troop. Use your Hypaspitai to hold the line instead.

Not my personal claim, I've never used them.

- Thureophoroi are an excellent medium infantry. They are some kind of jack-of-all-trades, but don't excel in any particular role.

Perhaps Quintus should stick to his Romans, after all they mostly use one type of infantry which additionally doesn't require any kind of sophisticated maneuvering on the field. What's exactly why the Romans where so successful.

They're no good at holding a line, and make reasonable flankers. Except the best flankers are swordsmen, for getting into enemy spearmen. Peltastai are a better medium infantry bet, unless you also want to cover against enemy cavalry.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Here are some units I find a bit underpowered

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.



Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.



Thraikioi Hippeis



They have their uses, for sure, but unfortunately not in an army that is reduced to 20. The same goes for any skirmischer cavalry, except early game when you don't have anything better.



Brihentin



For a supposed shock cavalry I consider them weak. Dies quickly in melee. OK, I just stated above that cavalry is not for melee...

[jhhowell]

Not sure I'd say "bad" per se, but definitely not worth the money - Armenian cataphracts (can probably generalize to Parthians as well). They're very capable, but very expensive. And the key point is that the cataphract horse archers are available one MIC level lower, for less money, and equal charging ability. The pure cataphracts just get you a melee weapon (IIRC armor is the same, at least for Hayasdan). Add to that the widespread availability of Kinsmen who are the best non-cataphract heavy cav in the game, plenty good enough to form the cavalry wing of an eastern army, with a cost around 60% of cataphracts. Not much point other than eye candy/flavor/RP to pay for the expensive pure cataphracts.

Relatedly, the Armenian Noble Infantry. Same stats as veteran Shipri Tukul (3 chevrons, IIRC), with less convenient recruiting cities and higher cost. And the ST can be recruited as mercenaries for extra convenience.

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry - by the time the player can get these, Hayasdan will almost certainly control at least one of Kotais or Mtsheta (or however you spell that one). The latter both allow Scythian horse archers from a regional MIC1, which means all jav-cav in the realm are obsolete. A similar argument can be made against the Dahae jav-cav further east.

Velites - unless they've gotten a lethality upgrade on their melee weapon since I last looked at them, they're just understrength leves/akontistai with a couple more points of armor. Leves/akontistai are the way to go for javelin-tossing, Peltasts can fight well in melee, last I checked Velites were mediocre to poor in both roles.

[The General]

Iberian Lancearii



They tire extremely fast and do not have such an impact upon their charge as one could expect from such a heavily armoured unit.

I agree with this.

[Fondor_Yards]

Hoplitai Indohellenikoi are garbage. They can't even hold the line against other light and medium infantry, and have trouble fighting even light cavalry. Everyone who can recruit them can also get far more useful infantry instead, with a better recruitment area too, so I see zero need to ever include them in an army.

[konny]

Prodromoi



There is absolutely no need to employ them if you have ready access to their Thraikian variant, which is quite an important tad better.

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

[Swordmaster]

Having gotten my arse kicked by armoured elephants recently, I withdraw my earlier assertion. They just wouldn't die!

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Two reasons to employ them:

1. Money: You get about three units of Prodomoi for two of Thrakians. That is no point when equipping the royal army where you would go for the best there is. But when it comes to fielding all those minor armies for the Strategies "upkeep" should be an argument.

2. AOR: The Thrakians are available in 6 neighbouring provinces. The Prodomoi in 16 provinces between Italy and Baktria. That makes them strategical much more flexible than their Balkans counterpart as soon as you start campaigning outside your closer homeland-zone.

That's quite true.

After all I think there are no "bad" units, every unit has its use. Every unit mentioned in my previous post I have readily employed in my respective campaigns so far as Carthage or Makedonia. EB is best played role-played. One shouldn't go purely after stats and upkeep.

[QuintusSertorius]

Roleplaying is precisely why I do use Thureophoroi, in spite of not thinking they're brilliant.

[LorDBulA]

Surprisingly bad units

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Dropanai: This guys are awsome.
Sure they are missing armour and shield but are butchers at meal and are dirty cheep. Can butcher much more expensive and much heavier opponents.
They do die like flies under misile fire but this is not unexpected or suprising. They have no armour or shield for crying out loud.

Elephants:
This is unit of extremes. Either they will crush enemy army in no time all will fail miserebly. There is no middle ground with this unit.
I once as Epeirote conquared whole Sicily and Itally with single army with 1 unit of unarmourd elephants. Fought 4 or 5 huge battles and each time my casualties where between 1-3%.
This was only thanks to elephants, normally fighting romans in itally I was suffering 15-50% casualties.
With Elephants I didnt have to reinforce my main army (other then organising garissons for captures cities ) through whole campaign. This is huge bang for the buck if you take into account short campaign time (saves many on upkeep ), much smaller loses (saves money both on training of new troops and upkeep while you transport them to front ).
Of course elephants are not type of unit that you keep in your army all the time. You train them for specific campaign and after you destroyed enemy full stacks and there is no huge formations to fight anymore disbands at once.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

[QuintusSertorius]

How do you determin that unit is suprisingly bad?
My first question would be bad at what?

I cant comment on all units that are described as suprisingly bad because I didnt use all of them anough.

Thessalian Heavy Cavalry:From my limited experiance this is very nice unit. Most deffinetly not suprisingly bad.

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Easy, look at their stats and the role they're designed for. Compare how they actually perform in that role. I've used a lot of Western cavalry units in battles now, and I've found their heavies are almost uniformly rubbish compared to mediums or even lights. Always because their stamina is crap.

Thessalians are knackered (as in Tired) after a couple of charges. Which means any subsequent ones are nowhere near as powerful as the first two. Thrakian Prodromoi on the other hand (who have identical charge stats) can charge home like that five or six times before they're tired, and they recover their "wind" a lot faster.

More charges at full impact means much better as shock cavalry.

Ah I think 'role they're designed for' might be a bit subject to personal playing styles. To me I use *no* cavalry whatsoever to repeatedly charge whatever unit; unless I am feeling otherwise really confident about it.

Instead I use my cavalry to:
1) Dispatch enemy cavalry with (one point to the Thessalians or Brihentin for that matter)
2) Dispatch lighter enemy missile troops: no point in attacking guys with pointy sticks...
3) Quickly push back some enemy units which are getting a bit too succesful for my liking You'd be amazed at what a full charge focused on the corner or a small gap of a unit can do when that unit is already in full melee.
4) Destroy routing units
5) Break shaken or wavering units; or at least speed up the process.
6) Break enemy bodyguards. Heavy cavalry with kopeis? Hell, yeah!

Seriously: units of Thessalian heavy cavalry tend to be extremly valuable when dealing with an endless steam of Ptolemaioi bodyguard cavalry... Especially if you can't afford or can't get your hands on anything better (Kinsmen or better yet, Hetairoi).
===========================================

Also someone mentioned Scythed Chariots as being bad? What has he/she been doing to those?! Best thing to break those annoying 'surprisingly good units' the enemy AI tends to field -- I mean Hoplitai Haploi, Peltastai and the like. Very useful against a lot of cavalry also.

[QuintusSertorius]

I use cavalry for the following tasks:
1) Keep other cavalry away from my skirmishers
2) Keep other cavalry away from the flanks or rear of my line troops
3) [With light cavalry] Roam about behind the enemy front line, messing with their morale and firing missiles into their backs
4) [With fast mediums like Thrakian Prodromoi] Hunt down the enemy general*
5) Whittle down numbers and reduce the morale of already engaged enemy infantry, by charging to their rear at full pelt; pull out once contact is made, repeat and rinse
6) Drive off, or even kill enemy skirmishers - especially their slingers
7) [For horse-archers] Push enemy horse archers away from effective range on my infantry, especially my slingers
8) Kill routing enemies

Number 5) is the main one I use any heavies for, once the entire enemy force is engaged fighting someone and so they can't throw infantry in the way of a charge before it reaches full speed and levelled lances. I don't leave them engaged in melee, but pull them out again if the unit hasn't broken, retreat to charging distance and go again. Units like Curepos are brilliant at this once you've used up all your javelins, they have AP lances so get a lot of kills. Because of their stamina, they can do it repeatedly too. Sure you lose two or three of them each time, but it's worth it for the result.

Indeed often just having your cavalry moving around behind the enemy will start pushing their morale in the direction of routing.

Now I didn't list dispatch enemy cavalry because often they'll come to me, and my infantry can kill them with much fewer losses. Or better yet, while they're pinned fighting my infantry in melee, I can charge them. In a recent battle I killed some of those Hellenic Cataphracts that way, they charged the Thrakian Peltasts guarding my left flank, so an FM and unit of Curepos swept out wide then charged in on them. They lost almost half their number in the first charge, and leaving the FM melee-ing with them, I pulled the Curepos out and charged again. Kataphraktoi broke, game over heavy cavalry.

*Though this is often unnecessary since he suicide-charges my front line most of the time

[Irishmafia2020]

Peltastai Makedonikai - A very good unit! I love this unit and I will defend their prowess. They have won a number of battles for me against elite non-phalanx infantry and cavalry.

Thueroperoi (spelling) - their role is to be cheap, but capable soldiers, like the Hastati of Rome. Expect them to take causalities, but if they die, at least they are cheap to replace. If that is not your attitude, then this unit is very disappointing (I certainly was initially).

Successor Medium Cavalry- like Thueroperoi on horserback. Cheap and die like flies, but widely recruitable - Any other expectation will lead to disappointment.

Thessalian Heavy Cav - I agree that they are not fantastic. I tend to recruit Greek Noble Cavalry instead if I have the local option. They suffer too many causalities in contrast to Companion Cav. You might be better off throwing away Successor medium units than investing in Thessalian. On the other hand, in the west (against Rome, Greece) they are pretty strong.

My disappointing units -

Median medium Cavalry - I thought that Media was supposed to be the place where the Persian Cavalry tradition flowered. These Cav are nothing but a clone of the generic "Asian" medium Cavalry, and they are weak compared to other Eastern Cav units.

Baktrian Horse Archers (I won't try to spell their Greek name) - This is a cool unit of armored Baktrian archer cavalry that that nation developed in response to the various nomadic threats that they faced. They are expensive and, and for the cost you can recruit lots of disposable Dahae riders instead.

Dahae Skirmisher Cavalry - Virtually useless - upgrade your MIC and get the riders instead.

Tarantine Elite Cavalry - Why do these guys have "elite" in their name? Am I missing something? The Greek armored Skirmisher Cav are generally better...

Spartiates - Solid killers, but they are expensive, and you have to have a level 5 MIC in Sparta to get them. In contrast, the Level 4 elite hoplites (I forget their name) that you get from the other Greek cities are simply better. That is what makes the Spartans (slightly) disappointing.

Galatian Wild men - Like the Spartans, they are disappointing only when compared to their peers. The Geseatae (spelling) are more powerful and have better morale. I was disappointed that the Galatians were not their equal.

East Coast Levies - From Arabia - they seem to match their opponents in stats, but their morale is so low that their inevitable rout after suffering 5% casualties will probably take the rest of your army with them. Use these guys for Garrison duty where they will have to fight to the death. Never take them on an offensive campaign.

Indo-Iranian Heavy Cavalry - these guys are portrayed as being one of the great Elite cavalry units in the game. Whoever controls Gandahara in Northern India can recruit them. They are supposed to mix the Equestrian tradition of the Steppe with the superior metallurgy of India to make an UBer Heavy Cav. They are very expensive, and very hard to come by. For all of that, I came away with the impression that the Indo-Iranian Med Cavalry was generally a superior force. They are more widely available, and have excellent stats for 1/2 the price. Once again, I found myself being disappointed in an elite unit when I compared them to their local peers.

Those are some controversial choices for "bad" units, but relative to my expectations of their capabilities, I found each of these units to be disappointing.

[Beefy187]

How can you not like the Spartiates? They're Spartans!!

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

[Havok.]

My surprisingly bad unit is catapults... I just find them too expensive and too slow..

don' like catapults either, they be vereh ugly indeed, i like more the vanilla catapults, but hey, i wont argue with the EB team for that

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

As Getai I have a nice way of protecting drapnai until I can make enough money to recruit Dacian phalanxes into my field armies. I have groups of horse-archers raid enemy stacks and destroy missile units. The enemy usually never replaces them.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

[Irishmafia2020]

About wild men being weaker than gaesetae? Is the unit guide wrong? They seem identical. They're awesome as part of a Getai stack. The enemy is hacked by falxes and scared by the naked guys on methamphetimines. They once took a facefull of thorakitai javelins and beat them with their own spears. 3 casualities to 80 kills.

The wild men have 1 less defense, and 2 less morale than the Gaesetae... the difference is not very much, and they are both complete bad @sses, but I was disappointed when I found out that the Galatians were slightly weaker, hence the above post...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Threads like this make me smile.