Playable factions

[Sheogorath]

Hey, for all we know the Indian factions have a diverse and interesting unit roster, with nothing more offensive than rocket elephants ;)

[andrewt]

* I'm not particularly eager to play my own country, but it's already confirmed as playable in the main campaign, so I might as well include it.

Ditto. The U.S. became a superpower long after the game ends. I'm not interested on playing crappy units with crappy provinces or units/provinces that are way more powerful than what they historically should be.

I always play factions with a unit roster that interests me. That and having a decent starting position. I think I'll go with one of the colonial powers, most probably Britain.

[Khazar_Dahvos]

I more than likely will probably play as the Dutch since I like the starting provinces that they start with!!!!! Or perhaps I will play as the Prussians and scrap my european provinces and sail somewhere and make a new home!!!!

[Martok]

Ditto. The U.S. became a superpower long after the game ends. I'm not interested on playing crappy units with crappy provinces or units/provinces that are way more powerful than what they historically should be..

Indeed. I just don't see the point of America being playable when it will --or at least should -- be grossly underpowered compared to the other major factions. (I don't think anyone took us seriously until the Mexican-American War at the very earliest, and most probably not til the Spanish-American War.) There's simply no way that the U.S. should be able to take on any European powers early on, and even later it should still be very difficult.

I always play factions with a unit roster that interests me. That and having a decent starting position. I think I'll go with one of the colonial powers, most probably Britain.

I'm thinking that I'll probably want to play as the British first, with Prussia, Sweden, France, and the Ottomans rounding out the top 5. I'll maybe play the U.S. when I'm bored with the rest.

[Gustav II Adolf]

I think it's fine that the US is a playable faction as long as no other important major faction is excluded. That means we need more playable factions because i don't want Portugal put behind the US. However we also need variation and different challenges. It would be a real challenge to start with a Weak US and change history by making it powerfull against all ods. I would'nt like though if it had super units of it's own.


G

[SaFe]

I think it's fine that the US is a playable faction as long as no other important major faction is excluded. That means we need more playable factions because i don't want Portugal put behind the US. However we also need variation and different challenges. It would be a real challenge to start with a Weak US and change history by making it powerfull against all ods. I would'nt like though if it had super units of it's own.


G

To be honest it seems they scrap Portugal or Austria as playable faction for the U.S.
marketing reasons, but very sad. I agree with Martok and others.
The 13 Colonies should definately be one of the 50 factions, unlockable perhaps, but definately not one of the starting 10-12 for obvious historical reasons. I'm not sure how they want to do it, but if the U.S. is playable from the start (1700) it would be laughable and if they playable from 1770 onwards it would be a bad decission to leave a important power like Austria or Portugal out for them who shaped Europe(Austria) and hold important colonies (Potugal) from the early beginning of the game.

[Sol Invictus]

I agree, while I would like to play the Thirteen Colonies in a historical context and attempt to gain idependence, I wouldn't want that opportunity to come only by excluding some of the major powers of the era; mainly Austria and Portugal. Since CA seems to be going for twelve factions now, that should leave room for everyone to be happy; both players and the marketing folks.

[Zenicetus]

Indeed. I just don't see the point of America being playable when it will --or at least should -- be grossly underpowered compared to the other major factions. (I don't think anyone took us seriously until the Mexican-American War at the very earliest, and most probably not til the Spanish-American War.) There's simply no way that the U.S. should be able to take on any European powers early on, and even later it should still be very difficult.

True, but a major strength of the U.S. faction would be (to quote a certain Python movie)... vast tracts of land! And therefore resources.

I wouldn't want to see the U.S. faction artificially overpowered at the start, but it could be interesting to play a race for resource development while holding off the established European powers with diplomacy. If you can generate enough early cash from trade, agriculture, mining, etc., then you could bribe your way to a degree of military power with alliances, until you had your own strong armies and navies (assuming diplomacy actually does work better than previous games... otherwise all bets are off). It could be the ultimate faction for people who like to turtle instead of blitzing the map.

Also, didn't I read somewhere in the previews that there might be more than just a military conquest goal for the campaign? If there's an "economic victory" condition of some kind, then the U.S. faction would be a strong contender, if it can defend its territory and maybe do just a little local expansion (Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean) instead of having to go for world domination.

[Martok]

I realize CA included the U.S. as a playable faction as a "hook" to further attract my fellow Americans to the game, but I agree that it'll be a pity if it's at the expense of a major European power not being playable. For that reason, I'm rather hoping that the U.S. is being excluded as one of the original 10-12 playable factions (since it's also one of the emerging factions).

The 13 Colonies should definately be one of the 50 factions, unlockable perhaps, but definately not one of the starting 10-12 for obvious historical reasons. I'm not sure how they want to do it, but if the U.S. is playable from the start (1700) it would be laughable

I don't think you have to worry about that at least. From what's been said so far, it sounds as if the U.S. will be an emerging faction, and will only appear under certain conditions. If they do appear, I believe you will then have the choice to either play as them or continue playing as the British.

True, but a major strength of the U.S. faction would be (to quote a certain Python movie)... vast tracts of land! And therefore resources.

I wouldn't want to see the U.S. faction artificially overpowered at the start, but it could be interesting to play a race for resource development while holding off the established European powers with diplomacy. If you can generate enough early cash from trade, agriculture, mining, etc., then you could bribe your way to a degree of military power with alliances, until you had your own strong armies and navies (assuming diplomacy actually does work better than previous games... otherwise all bets are off). It could be the ultimate faction for people who like to turtle instead of blitzing the map.

Also, didn't I read somewhere in the previews that there might be more than just a military conquest goal for the campaign? If there's an "economic victory" condition of some kind, then the U.S. faction would be a strong contender, if it can defend its territory and maybe do just a little local expansion (Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean) instead of having to go for world domination.

Some good points, Zenicetus. Winning via forming alliances and/or economic/prestiege victory may very well be possible. I hadn't really thought of that.

[Samurai Waki]

[QUOTE=Martok;2003937] I don't think you have to worry about that at least. From what's been said so far, it sounds as if the U.S. will be an emerging faction, and will only appear under certain conditions. If they do appear, I believe you will then have the choice to either play as them or continue playing as the British.[QUOTE]

I believe this would be the best course of action.

[andrewt]

Yeah, thinking about it, I don't think CA will make us conquer the entire map or even a huge majority of it. It'll just drag the endgame for too long, especially if they do the AI ganging up on you, brigands appearing everywhere on your territory, huge penalties for distance to capital thing they do in current released games. I wouldn't want to finish the game if that's the case. Right now, endgame just drags on too long because of all the artificial constraints meant to slow down a winning player once the player becomes too powerful.

If the victory conditions of a U.S. player, even on the long campaign, is just to conquer the lower 48 states and maybe a few more territories here and there, then that would be very reasonable. It's basically what the U.S. did in real life;the player is just attempting to finish it a few decades earlier.

[Ishmael]

i feel an obscure urge to play as portugal. However, i would also like to play as Prussia (ie: germany) and launch the first world war two and a bit centuries early.

[SaFe]

i feel an obscure urge to play as portugal. However, i would also like to play as Prussia (ie: germany) and launch the first world war two and a bit centuries early.

If you want to play a First World War during this timeframe, the 7 years war fits almost perfectly, sadly with 1 year = 1 turn it will be over too soon.
Just think of all the factions that fought against each other during this war
I really hope for a expansion set for the 7 years-war and 1 turn = 1 month or perhaps 1 turn = 3 months at the maximum.

[Dodge_272]

Does it matter if factions are 'playable' or not?

In RTW there were 3 playable factions at the start. IN M2TW there were 5 playable factions at the start.

All you have to do is edit one text file and you can, and will, have every faction playable.

[SaFe]

Does it matter if factions are 'playable' or not?

In RTW there were 3 playable factions at the start. IN M2TW there were 5 playable factions at the start.

All you have to do is edit one text file and you can, and will, have every faction playable.

Yes, it matters.
Even CA stated that the 10-12 factions are definately more detailed and fleshed out than the others, which means you'll probably have rather boring units like typical german line infantry for the austrian faction instead of specialized austrian, hungarian or balkan units for example. I think you can imagine the same for other factions.
So in my opinion it is very important if a faction is playable or not.

[adembroski]

I find it ironic that people are degrading the United States at the time as a country incapable of taking on world powers when, in fact, that's precisely what it did in gaining, and then defending, its independence.

Note that after Valley Forge, it can be easily argued that Washington's northern Army was the equal of, if not better than, the English army... conventional wisdom's greatest army at the time. And that's including it's Hessian mercs.

There is something to be said for the moral strength of a man fighting for his freedom, and it's easy to illustrate that the American colonies produced it's fair share of the world's intellectual elite at the time. Perhaps the political savvy and industriousness of the American people can be the faction's strength. The freedom of the American people allowed them to explore avenues of development other nations never even thought of once the nation recovered from the Revolution.

Much of the United State's post-Revolution weakness was its own fault. Had a slightly different form of government (such as the one later established with the Constitution) been adopted right off the bat, the United States may have very soon established itself as a world power.

In all cases, regardless of who you play in this game, you have the benefit of hindsight. This includes the United States. I will, proudly, play my own country, and it's the primary reason I am buying this game... finally, the chance to play my own in a Total War game! If it leaves me at a distinct disadvantage, so much the better.

[SaFe]

Here we go again... "proudly play my own nation".
Nobody said the 13 Colonies were not as "good" as other factions.
Luckily this thread was not known for patriotic views this far and i hope it stays this way.
Nothing against patriotism for those who gain something from it, but usually it shouldn't belong in a computer game.
Don't be insulted, cause i fear for this thread, if one person starts this thing...

So:
Let me explain, why i think the 13 Colonies should not be playable in the grand campaign.
Others including me just said that there were definately more important factions concerning the relative power in the world during this time. And...more important, the real irony would be, if CA make the the Colonies playable from 1700. On the other side, if the Colonies are only playable from 1770 onwards it would be a lost spot for a other faction for the first 70-75 turns.

[adembroski]

Here we go again... "proudly play my own nation".

Oh dear, god forbid!

Nobody said the 13 Colonies were not as "good" as other factions.

Yes, they did. Repeatedly.

Luckily this thread was not known for patriotic views this far and i hope it stays this way.

Yes, because liking one's own country should be illegal... for Americans.

Let me explain, why i think the 13 Colonies should not be playable in the grand campaign:
Others including me just said that there were definitely more important factions concerning the relative power in the world during this time.

Sure, but not fifty of them. To say the United States does not play at least a secondary role in historical events between 1776-1820 is ridiculous. From a political stand point, there had not been a viable Republic in the (TW Relevant) world in almost 1,000 years. Can you say for sure that there would have been a French Revolution if their hadn't been an American Revolution?

And...more important, the real irony would be, if CA make the the Colonies playable from 1700. On the other side, if the Colonies are only playable from 1770 onwards it would be a lost spot for a other faction for the first 70-75 turns.

I would think they'd make the Colonies a conditional emerging faction. At least, that'd be the intelligent way to go about it. Had England handled things a tad differently, the Revolution never would have occurred. It was far from inevitable.

I can see the issues with CA including them A.) from the start or B.) having them emerge regardless of what occurs. I personally think that when a "Revolution" occurs within your faction, you should be permitted to chose which side you'll take over... at the risk of losing the game if you pick the wrong side, of course.

This, of course, means I play England in order to take over the United States later, and potentially lose that war and there is no more United States... but I think it'd be fun nevertheless.

I'm not going to only play US. I'm actually pretty interested in playing as several other nations as well. The point it is there seems to be an overt hostility toward anyone remotely patriotic, and I saw WTF is wrong with that?!? Especially concerning something so trivial as a single player campaign game.

I'm not here to say "My country is better than yours", that wasn't my point. My point was to defend A.) the United States' inclusion in the game (and it doesn't really need defending, it makes good, economic sense) and B.) point out that there's nothing wrong with being happy to see them there.

[Mithridates VI Eupator]

Personally, I think that the US would be a very interesting faction to play, but not if it would be at the expence of, say, Austria, which was one of the major powers of this time. Hopefully, it will be possible to play them both, at least if one were to mod the textfiles, but still, if it is as has been earlier stated, that non-playable factions will have fewer, and less interesting units, Austria would definately be the loser, given that the Austrian empire encompassed a large area, with very different groups of people, that could contribute with interesting units. The same holds true for the US, though, but not quite to the same extent.
(and, no: I'm neither Austrian, nor American)

[TenkiSoratoti_]

So lets get this straight...

The emerging US faction is being implemented and nations such as Portugal, Russia and Austria are not?

This is a travesty akin to GB getting 4th place in the Olympics.

The 'Rebels/Patriots/Americans' or whatever you like to call them took on a power like Britain and pulled through BUT only just and had considerable help from foreign super powers. Are we not forgetting that the US, despite outnumbering the British in many of the battles, lost most of them? And was it not more to do with horrendous British ineptitude that edged them onto that Parisian table in '83?

I just can't get my head round why CA is treating the US as an 'Empire' nation when it was so clearly not. I fail to see how not doing this would hurt their little marketing schemes. The very fact that you can actually play as the US should be enough to entice most of the potential American market surely?

In either case, I'll be dealing with the Rebellious colonists in a manner that befits rebels, in a manner the British should have enforced - mass hanging, scorched earth, heads on pikes.

[SaFe]

So lets get this straight...

The emerging US faction is being implemented and nations such as Portugal, Russia and Austria are not?

This is a travesty akin to GB getting 4th place in the Olympics.

The 'Rebels/Patriots/Americans' or whatever you like to call them took on a power like Britain and pulled through BUT only just and had considerable help from foreign super powers. Are we not forgetting that the US, despite outnumbering the British in many of the battles, lost most of them? And was it not more to do with horrendous British ineptitude that edged them onto that Parisian table in '83?

I just can't get my head round why CA is treating the US as an 'Empire' nation when it was so clearly not. I fail to see how not doing this would hurt their little marketing schemes. The very fact that you can actually play as the US should be enough to entice most of the potential American market surely?

Nothing is sure for the moment, but we all can count:
Maximum 12 playable nations - with playable i mean fleshed out and detailled (i know we can mod other factions in probably, but they will not be as detailled as the playable ones.)

Great Britain
13 Colonies
France
Prussia
Russia
Sweden
Netherlands
Spain
Ottomans
Mughals
Poland-Lithuania

and
Portugal OR Austria.

I think most of the information that was given hints to this final solution.
My list is based on 12 playable factions but even this is not confirmed.
If there are only 10 playable we can assume both Portugal and Austria are left out along with one other.

[Jolt]

Since Austria played a very important part in defeating Napoleon's Empire, I think I won't be buying the game. :)

[TenkiSoratoti_]

Since Austria played a very important part in defeating Napoleon's Empire, I think I won't be buying the game. :)

I will buy the game but I find it VERY odd that Austria might not be included or that there is any doubt about Austria being included. I've got over the fact that CA are putting the USA in for money reasons only (comon lets face it, they are) but no Austria? Thats more like an insult to history.

[rajpoot]

13 colonies shouldn't be playble right from the beginning in the general game. It should emerge as a rebel faction in due course of time, IF the British Empire's policies cause it to. Else it shouldn't exist.
Also, it is confirmed that we're having a whole separate Road to Liberty thing for the 13 colonies, so it's not like that it's being totally left out.
Furthermore, I think we can trust CA enough to make sure that they don't sacrifice a superpower to allow people to play as the US. I don't think the rebel factions are being counted among the 12 playable by them.

[PBI]

I should at this point echo SaFe's point, nothing is confirmed yet. This is all guesswork and speculation. Even the number of playable factions is not fixed yet, CA have said it will depend on how many they can get done before release.

Personally I doubt that the US will be playable from 1700, since it looks like they will already get their moment in the spotlight in the "Road to Independence" tutorial campaign. Probably they will become playable in the main campaign if they emerge, but it would seem a bit rich to bill as "playable" a faction which you would have to play for some time as Great Britain to even start, and who even then might not actually emerge.

[Zenicetus]

I just can't get my head round why CA is treating the US as an 'Empire' nation when it was so clearly not. I fail to see how not doing this would hurt their little marketing schemes. The very fact that you can actually play as the US should be enough to entice most of the potential American market surely?

I'm sure marketing is part of it, but the main justification I see for making the 13 colonies an "empire nation" is pure strategic interest. Some of us play these games for strategic challenge, not just to live out personal nationalistic dreams. Even though I'm a resident of the USA, the main thing that interests me about the USA as a faction is that it should be very challenging to fend off the other powers (if it's done right), and it starts on a completely different part of the map from the other principal players. That's going to be interesting, I think. Otherwise it's just a repeat of the M2TW "let's see who can get to the New World first!" scenario.

I do hope they include Portugal as one of the main playable factions, for historical reasons. But from a strategy gaming perspective, playing as Portugal isn't going to be much different from playing the game as Spain. I'm in favor of more variety in units, culture, and starting positions on the map, even if it means a historically powerful empire has to get dropped from the main playable faction list.

[Sheogorath]

All this whining about the US being playable, give it a REST, people. Whatever CA's reasons, where you HONESTLY not expecting it? Were you SERIOUSLY expecting a %100 historically accurate game, with all the nations in the right place, borders exactly right, all the correct colonies, and the USA as a minor faction? COME ON, people. The Revolutionary War takes place during this games period and you SERIOUSLY expected them to pass up on being able to slap 'RE-ENACT THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR!!!(!)' on the box?
Just chill. Relax. Take a deep breath. Realize that, within a month of the game coming out, there will be a 'historical accuracy' mod out that 'fixes' your problems. The mod team is probably already being assembled somewhere to make preparations.

Or make a separate topic for "ZOMGZ AMERIKKKA!" That'd work too.

[Megas Methuselah]

Heh heh. You're funny. However, I do hope Austria is going to be playable. Judging from it's history, it would be a really fun faction to play. Keep in mind, though, that I'm not going to scream, bash my head into the wall, or make spam posts on the org(i.e. ZOMGZ AMERIKKKA ) if I find Austria an unplayable faction. I'll just be dissapointed.

[Jolt]

But from a strategy gaming perspective, playing as Portugal isn't going to be much different from playing the game as Spain. I'm in favor of more variety in units, culture, and starting positions on the map, even if it means a historically powerful empire has to get dropped from the main playable faction list.

I don't think so. Remember that Portugal had a global empire to look after, colonies in the Atlantic, in America, in Africa and in India (Without mentioning in Australasia, which probably won't be in the game), meaning you have to defend them all, scattered around the world, and defend them with a smaller population basis (In gameplay perspective, I suppose it would be through many less provinces. One or two.) than the Spanish while, the said people only have to tend after their continuous American Empire, needing not to bother with India, for instance.

[lars573]

All this whining about the US being playable, give it a REST, people. Whatever CA's reasons, where you HONESTLY not expecting it? Were you SERIOUSLY expecting a %100 historically accurate game, with all the nations in the right place, borders exactly right, all the correct colonies, and the USA as a minor faction? COME ON, people. The Revolutionary War takes place during this games period and you SERIOUSLY expected them to pass up on being able to slap 'RE-ENACT THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR!!!(!)' on the box?
Just chill. Relax. Take a deep breath. Realize that, within a month of the game coming out, there will be a 'historical accuracy' mod out that 'fixes' your problems. The mod team is probably already being assembled somewhere to make preparations.

Or make a separate topic for "ZOMGZ AMERIKKKA!" That'd work too.

Hey I'm right there next to you. Thinking all these things.