Gil....it's time for you to face the reality...
Most of all couldnt play single or multy -player...
Is this legal?
TO sell a product as finished when is so bugged? And after all do not care about let customers waintign for a couple of month a patch that give us the possibilities to play in a normal way???
When i get access to the multyplayer i light a candle for grace received!
For me it's a promess. I will download the next game before paying 56euro to a software house like this.
Quote Originally posted by Akka:
So sorry, but I consider it perfectly understandable to DL a game to try it and see if it's good enough to buy it, as you don't have any warranty that allow you to return it if it's bugging on your computer.
[/QUOTE]
I consider it perfectly understandable too; many people think that doing something that everyone else does, which offers basically no visible bad comebacks, is not a crime.
If you can't be sure whether a game is going to be good, wait to see what other people say, and then either buy it or don't buy it. It's a risk. People have no apparent difficulty with this process and the inherent risks when it comes to going to the movies, buying a book, going to a restaurant, or indeed moving to a new house. And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.
I don't doubt that the move to a wired world will change some of the ways in which we behave and some of the laws we've created to monitor our behaviour. Try-before-you-buy will become possible and software development may well change so that it can be funded incrementally by some kind of subscription system or whatever.
However, at the moment, all I see is theft, theft, theft, theft, theft, with nothing to justify it except the magpie instinct.
Sorry, but that's the way I feel.
Gil ~ CA
This Panda
Oh dear the rot is starting to set in!!
Because Activision can't get their finger out and give us the long awaited patch members of this forum are really starting to show frustration!.....................mind you can we blame them!!
Remember Activision MUD STICKS!!
I write to make a living, so I perfectly understand Gil's feelings towards software piracy. But the high demand for new games, fuelled by the companies and the way they build games nowadays (releasing half-finished s/w plus aiming at the 10-14 years-old target group, which has a very limited interest span, does that sort of things, you know) is leading most people - especially youngsters, who haven't got the means to support themselves but rely on the - usually limited - parental purse for their purchases, to D/L pirated games by the dozens.
There are, currently, no ways to prevent this, but it's not for now to discuss.
CHIEF HISTORIAN
this is a very difficult issue, there are arguments from both sides but as it stands i have to agree with gil :s at the end of the day it is breaking the law isn't it? and in my experience laws are there for reasons
maybe in time things will change, but at the moment, as this is the only patch topic open please try and keep on trackfor everyones sake
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka
I am with Gil here.
The view that theft can be condoned, simply because it is easy to get away with, is utterly reprehensible.
I have some sympathy with those who (like me) are having significant problems. But I have found that if you buy from somewhere reputable you should have no trouble returning the game in the event or unresolvable problems.
There is a grey area where the software should run, but is too problematic to be useable. Here the obligation is on the developers to resolve these issues (which they have tried to do) and the publishers to disseminate the fix (which they have so far failed to do).
Many of us are getting frustrated, but please let's not resort to justifying crime.
If you want to try a game, then download the demo and try that. Whilst not a guarantee, if you can get that running you will probably be alright. I do this with 9/10 games that I buy, and did it with MTW. Admittedly I had trouble with the demo, but the game looked so good I bought it anyway. I have since been relying on the Devs to get things sorted out, so I only have myself to blame.
If we are going to start justifying piracy on these boards, don't be surprised if the Devs just tell us to go hang and disappear...
i think that someone must be incredibly naive when he buys a PC game and expects no problems under any circumstances.
Anyone who regularly buys PC games knows that there is the slight chance of hardware/software compatability issues. It happens to all of us. for instance I had to upgrade my OS to get Settlers3 to work (and it still sucked). Or AvP2 didn't quite work so well with my radeon as it did with my old voodoo. I know how teriibly frustrating it is to have a hardware issue, but it is part of PC gaming.
As it stands CA delivered a great SP game (i can't judge the MP since I don't play MP). There is always the possibility that you personally don't like the game, but that is not the fault of CA. Tastes differ after all.
I would have blamed CA if there were any game-stopping software bugs (like B&W for instance) but I have been playing it since it came out and haven't seen any.
although i am quite relaxed about downloading software, in this case I would disapprove of it since CA has a proven trackrecord with STW. I actually first had a downloaded copy of STW, but then quickly saw how good it was. I then went to the store and bought a copy, bought MI when that came out, and bought MTW without even looking at any reviews.
(If it was a shit company who deliveres garbage after garbage then i would say: so what)
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[This message has been edited by sapphoo (edited 10-29-2002).]
Quote And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.[/QUOTE]
That is just flat out incorrect. In every case you have some sort of recourse. The issue is not about the subjective matter of like or dislike, it's the objective matter of work or don't work as promised.
Buy a book? If it has pages missing I can take it back. Not be subjected to excuses and finger pointing between the author and the publisher on who's fault it is and still not get a refund.
Go to a restaurant? I don't have to pay to eat bugs. Can you imagine your frustration if every restaurant in the past 2 years you went to had a bug in there soup? On top of that all the restaurant owners tell you that is just the way it is now eat you soup and like it? In effect that is exactly what the software industry is doing.
While I agree theft of a product is not the answer I can't agree with your analogies here. In every case the customer has some form of recourse, in software purchase you just don't.
Gents... we may not condone piracy under any circumstances (not just because it is against the law but also for practical reasons: if money goes into the developers-publishers pocket, they'll have the incentive to keep on making games and some of them might even be of our liking) BUT there is a practical issue: 90% of those who buy a game (and I am talking about teenagers) won't spend with it more than a month, at best (usually a week or two of intensive gaming and then ...to the shelf). Face it, the attention span of any kid/teenager is severely limited. That's the way things are.
So... how many parents are you aware of, who would buy 24-40 computer games annualy for their kids? That is a rather large sum it comes to... how easy it is for a low-income family to justify such an expense just to keep the youngster happy?
So... the kids resort to piracy to get all the fancy games. Despite the fact that they don't actually play more than 3-4 out of 10 games they get that way.
CHIEF HISTORIAN
Quote I consider it perfectly understandable too; many people think that doing something that everyone else does, which offers basically no visible bad comebacks, is not a crime.[/QUOTE]
I would just say that it's easier to convince yourself that you don't do anything bad if everyone is doing it. But still it does not MAKE it right. That is not my point (everyone is driving like crazy on roads, and I STILL consider it bad)
Quote If you can't be sure whether a game is going to be good, wait to see what other people say, and then either buy it or don't buy it. It's a risk. People have no apparent difficulty with this process and the inherent risks when it comes to going to the movies, buying a book, going to a restaurant, or indeed moving to a new house. And few of these actions are reversible and refundible as a rule, although your mileage may vary for some of them depending on your vendor - just as happens with software.[/QUOTE]
Not true. If you pay to see a movie and it stops halfway and then you are told "we got a technical problem, sorry. No get out of the theater, others are coming for the next viewing", you can be SURE you WILL be refund.
If your house lacks ceiling, same.
If your car break after 1000 miles because the engine had a flaws, same.
If your books miss 50 pages, same.
No, if you bought a game that crash half-way, or where the ending movie is missing parts, or freeze if you move a particular unit in a particular condition, sorry but you're out of luck. No one will refund you. Still, it's a built-in flaw that would allow you to cancel the selling if it was ANYTHING BUT a video game.
I don't expect for bug-free programs. I KNOW that it's just impossible. I will accept to have some bugs if they are not destroying the game.
Now, as a consumer, I have a higher risk when buying a video game compared to when buying a book or a house (because I can't be refund if there is a flaw in it).
So I consider it normal to have in compensation a way to test the game befor buying it (you are allowed to visit the house and to drive the car for a few kilometers or to read some pages of the book before buying, BTW, though the movie does not grant the same advantages ^^).
So for a consumer PoV, I find that it's just a bonus to compensate a malus.
For your own PoV (the one of a developper), it can be a malus (because if someone can get a pirated game, it perhaps won't buy the retail version), but it can also be a bonus.
I, for instance, did not plan to buy MTW at all. Then I saw it on the Net, though "let's give it a try". DL it, then thought "good game, it deserve to be paid", then bought it.
Here you have an example where piracy actually GAVE you a customer.
On a slightly different situation, but still concerning the same issue, there is plenty games (like Revenant, Battle Realms, Stronghold...) that I would have bought if I could have got a pirated version. Why ? Well, simply because the only commercial versions are localised ones.
I HATE all the localised versions. I want the ORIGINAL ones. So if a game is localised, I will get it ONLY if I can have the original version (=> the pirated one), so I can still have the game in english. Then I can buy the localised version and just let it sit in the box - my original CD of MTW has never left its box
Did it for Warcraft III, did it for MTW, did it for Baldur's Gate 2, did it for basically half of my games.
Half of my games I would never have bought if I could not have the pirated version.
See how something that is APPARENTLY a theft can make you sell more games in the end ?
Using this method, I could playtest games like Civ3 and NWN, that lacked many things they promised they would have. I was then able to know that they were not worth buying, and could keep my money for better-deserving games.
I did not used this method on Diablo 2. I then ended with a crappy game that was not at all what I wished. The side-effect is that I would never have bought Warcraft 3 if I could not have tested it, because I was become defiant, because of Diablo 2. Again, a game I bought BECAUSE of piracy.
If I would not had this possibility to review games before buying them, I think I would actually buy much LESS of them, and not more. Just because I would not want to risk my money in buying a possibly crappy product.
Responsible piracy (in opposition to irresponsible one, where people just copy games without bothering to reward the authors of good ones) is in my opinion a very effective QA department. While marketting make many crappy games selling good (because of massive adds, hype and so on) while many good games stay unknow, responsible piracy allow to counter this effect, and reward ONLY good games. I think that people like you have all to gain from it.
Quote I don't doubt that the move to a wired world will change some of the ways in which we behave and some of the laws we've created to monitor our behaviour. Try-before-you-buy will become possible and software development may well change so that it can be funded incrementally by some kind of subscription system or whatever.
However, at the moment, all I see is theft, theft, theft, theft, theft, with nothing to justify it except the magpie instinct.
Sorry, but that's the way I feel.[/QUOTE]
I can understand your point, as I can imagine how bad you could feel if you see people getting your hard-worked product without repaying you.
But I don't feel guilty. I bought your product after all, so I did not steal anything from you ^^
Just look at this way :
1) If you make a GOOD game, there is plenty people like me who will buy it anyway, just because they feel they have to reward the creators of a good game.
2) If you make a crappy, pathetic game, then you don't DESERVE to sell it
[This message has been edited by Akka (edited 10-29-2002).]
If violence didn't solve your problem... well, you just haven't been violent enough.
Apologies for making this thread jump the rails... poor form on my part.
Back therefore to the patch status. Activision has given us a list of must-answer issues, and we're working on them now.
Run silent, run deep, little panda...
Gil ~ CA
This Panda
that's an intriguing word 'must-answer issues'
care to comment on how this communication process concerning a patch goes between developer and publisher and how a must-answer issues fits in here?
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Quote Date 29 October 2002
Further to your correspondence of 29 October 2002
Thank you for contacting us. I am sorry you are having problems with Medieval Total War. The game developers are working on a patch and unfortunately I am not quite sure yet when it is going to be released. Please keep a regular check at www.activision.com.
I am sorry for the inconvenience caused.
.
Your customer number is 300171071
If you need further assistance in Europe, please call our technical support staff at
0870 241 2148 or contact us by e-mail at support@activision.co.uk . Also be sure to include all previous replies when/if responding to this message.
Best Regards,
Stephen at Activision Technical Support
-----------------------
Pull your fingers out and release the MTW patch. You've had the damned thing
for weeks now.
The .org forum is full of angry & disillusioned MTW players at the moment.
I will not buy another Activision game.
Severely annoyed
Duke of Cornwall
(Reading, England)[/QUOTE]
Activision support claim the patch is with CA. Are they just plain ignorant or do they know something we don't ?
Quote Originally posted by GilJaysmith:
Apologies for making this thread jump the rails... poor form on my part.
Back therefore to the patch status. Activision has given us a list of must-answer issues, and we're working on them now.
Run silent, run deep, little panda...[/QUOTE]
Halleluja....................I see the light!!............Whoopee!!!!!!!!
Who knows. It's all very cryptic and cloak and daggery just to get a bloody fix for a computer game. Patches being "negoiated", "must answer issues". Geez fix the damn thing so I can finally play the game as it was advertised!!
-Apeboy
Since when did a restaurant make you pay to eat bugs?
This is so ridicoulos....
I just dont have any more words!
Maybe the developers will make the game a present at its Birthday...august 2003...
This is so ridicuolous....
But i still cant reach what CA is pointing to...
DARK...HERMETIC...HIDING SOMETHING...what the hell %&**%???? It's just a patch!!! Tell us a period and we'll wait patiently!!!!!!
It's so hard for you???
What the hell are you testing?? Total War 3??
[This message has been edited by Ciliegio (edited 10-29-2002).]
Quote Originally posted by Ciliegio:
This is so ridicoulos....
[/QUOTE]
I agree. It's a truly appalling display of... oh, wait. I thought you were talking about this thread. Never mind.
Quote Originally posted by Ciliegio:
This is so ridicoulos....
I just dont have any more words!
Maybe the developers will make the game a present at its Birthday...august 2003...
This is so ridicuolous....
But i still cant reach what CA is pointing to...
DARK...HERMETIC...HIDING SOMETHING...what the hell %&**%???? It's just a patch!!! Tell us a period and we'll wait patiently!!!!!!
It's so hard for you???
What the hell are you testing?? Total War 3??
[This message has been edited by Ciliegio (edited 10-29-2002).][/QUOTE]
Look at me! I'm an obsessive little fanboy who insists on making his point by using profanity and all caps!
Yes it sucks the product is defective.
No there is nothing your tired rants can do about it.
Calm the hell down and satisfy yourself by making a constructive and calm complaint. Constantly flinging insults and rants wont speed things along or make the devs see the light.
Que usque tandem abutere, Catilina, patiencia nostra?
Gil, I am sorry if my post offended you or your team. I believe some of us in this forum are or were software developers like you. I worked as a developer coding Customer Support software for 2 years. Though I understand your situation, and agree with you 100% that DL a non-shareware is "THEFT", I regret to say that video game developers/publishing houses have much lower standard of discipline and ethics than enterprise SW firms. If we had released a product as buggy as this, it would have been the end of our firm. Worse, if we don't correct the issues in a timely manner and let them sit for 2+ months, we would have been sued our arses off.
The current situation is so against the consumers who purchase video games that I pity ourselves. I have to say the companies like Activision are really the THIEVES who are shamelessly robbing the consumers who put thrust on them. Worse, due to most vendors don't allow return video games, we have to live with it.
I myself couldn't return the game to EB because I bought it too early and stick to it too long. Fortunately, there is still eBay, and I recovered part of funds.
Said all that, let me remind all of us that it's nothing personal against any particular developers in CA. Gil, among other full-hearted developers are just part of the system which they are unable to change or justify.
I am really not sure if DL a game is a crime in the current system. At least to me, it's hardly unethical to steal from the robbers.
I wouldn't worry about the minority who actually DL the game, because MTW is the top 6 selling games in N. America. Both Activision and CA should be compensated enough. What we really should worry is the decaying trusts between gamers like myself and the irresponsible companies, and the unfair system we all in right now.
In a sense, it's almost humorous to see robbers accusing other thieves. They are all the same suit in my taste.
[This message has been edited by firebead (edited 10-29-2002).]
Just wanted all you to know that I got a new
game over the weekend;(yes my wife let me because she said "anything to stop the loud cussing comming from the computer room")so
I probably wont be around much. I'll check back in a year and see if the patch is done.
"This is Nial signing off"
"must-answer-questions" in QA are either
- things that you promised that would be there, but are not
- new faults
Sometimes it's enough to answer the QA-guy 'nope, it's not there, sorry pal' or 'yep, it still crashes once in a while, but less then before'.
But sometimes QA simply does not approve the software without these things being fixed.
Wait and see I guess...
--------
I really suck at MP, if you want an easy win : give me a try .
Like I said in another thread, I worked in QA for 18 months and then moved into programming, so I know both sides of the argument.
So, in summary, if the devs promised something that isn't there, that is BAD, BAD, BAD.
If they broke something else whilst doing a fix for another issue, that is unfortunate, but it does happen.
This doesn't bode well though. Our QA department takes a week to look over 1 piece of our 12 piece software suite. 1 line of code changes...that's a whole extra week!
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It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO!
It's getting warm in here...that must be one hell of an INFERNO
Kraellin: ROFL...sick, sick, sick...rofl...sick, sick, sick...ROFL. You should be banned, Inferno, but before you go, post a few more. lol
maybe someone could mail them again asking for a representative to post at this message board?
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previously BarryNoDachi - KenchiBND
Clan Kenchikuka
Piper, an Activision rep,does post frequently at DD's forum. I don't recall any recent comments on the patch status though.
------------------
Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon
This space intentionally left blank
Quote Originally posted by Gregoshi:
Piper, an Activision rep,
[/QUOTE]
he said the patch is in quality control in america, so ya brits, don't get your hopes up... it'll be decades before it comes out.
besides, what company would make a patch after being named the #1 game of all time?
bump
All warfare is based on deception
Sun Tzu
I bet the patch wont be out till the .com site is fixed, I betcha!
"The mind is everything. What you think you become."
"The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."
Buddha
I have to ask one thing...
How come it is so hard for Activision to get the Q&A done, when companies such as Blizzard manages to get out several patches in the same timeframe for most of their games...
Maybe it is because they are not bound by Activision and does their own Q&A.
GAH!!! CA good, Activision bad!!!
------------------
BTW, Danish Crusades are true to history.
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
You may not care about war, but war cares about you!
Maybe thats why warcraft is more widely liked and totalwar not
"The mind is everything. What you think you become."
"The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."
Buddha
Bought a new game over the weekend.Guess what
they allready have a patch out. The game has been out a whole 2 weeks. Actiscism take note, not everybody screws their customers.
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