Is Pontos impossible? Success stories wanted.

[lionhard]

Is it not possible to edit the AI so it is not stupid and actually suits a game as well made as EB?

[Lysimachos]

Is it not possible to edit the AI so it is not stupid and actually suits a game as well made as EB?

Modding the AI is not possible in RTW . However, I think it is possible in M2TW, so maybe we are more lucky with EB II.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Bltizing makes any faction possible. I believe Fluvius has conquered the Med and Asia Minor in the year 242 already. Its quite easy to take advantage of the stupid AI.

Yes thats right super market

I think I already crossed the point where I could lose, now I only have to make a choice which direction to conquer first..

[Rilder]

Bltizing makes any faction possible. I believe Fluvius has conquered the Med and Asia Minor in the year 242 already. Its quite easy to take advantage of the stupid AI.

From what i've seen you only need to Blitz Mazaka and Ipsos to get a good start. Also early on send a Diplomat to the Ptolmaioi, since they want peace with you more then Side.

After Mazaka and Ipsos are yours, the Grey Death, at least in my game, gets alot more receptive to peace and you can drastically slow down expansion to your own pace.

(Also in before necro whining)

[Prussian to the Iron]

if you guys want ill start a pontos campaign and post my progress. i bet i could win on VH/VH

[Kikaz]

I'm actually doing quite well in my Pontos campaign. It's only about 250 BC but it definitely seems that Pontos is a good deal easier than the Sakae or Hai, at least from my experiences. On the second turn I conquered Mazaka and Sinope, moved over to Byzantion and held out against the Seleukids for about 20 years while waiting for my Mazaka and Byzantion mines to finish (and to save up cash to by them). Recently, I took Nikaea. Surprisingly, I'm worried more about the Sarmations than the Seleukids, the Sarmatians control all provinces around the Black sea except for Sinope, Nikaea and Byzantion (all of which I control), and are currently raping Getai and Hayasdan. Fortunately for me Seleukos seems preoccupied eating up Ptolemy, which has left me an opening in Asia-minor (which I will ruthlessly exploit). Pontos is definitely possible, but difficult as you have to be extremely bold and timid at the same time. I'm playing it on VH/M btw...

[Cyclops]

I have got Pontos to a winning position on VH/H, not as difficult as Hai or Sarmatians as noted.

I played General-cam and house rules (like no more than 4 foot-missile troops and faction typical stacks (like my semi-independent Galatians)) which made it fist-pumping good..until I hit a repeating CTD linked to multiple battles at turn-end (curses!).

You definitely need few breaks, but it is eminently do-able. Disband the cav (FM's are enough), take the coastal cities, venture west and watch the AS like a hawk.

[Jebivjetar]

The best way to begin With Potos, from my expirience is next:

1) declare war on AS and take their cities in Asia Minor immediately (Mazaka, then Sadris)
2) then, take all eleutheroi cities in AM, except Halicarnass, because Ptolies will declare war against you when you attack it. My order was: Ancyra, Sinope, Byzantion, Nikaia, Pergamon)
3) When almost all the rebel cities in AM are yours (except Halicarnass), boost up your economy and army and wait until Ptolies lay siege on Halicarnass: in my case they had full stack in siege, but were beaten there: then attack them immediately: lay siege to Side and take it next in turn. Tarsos is next.
4) Dont be modest: take Mytilena from Macedonians: sooner or later they will attack you because they want Pergamon, which now yours)

at this moment you have a very, very good position. Keep boosting your economy and army and wait for good moment to conquer forward. Trapezus and Ani-Kamah are easy to be taken.

dont disband your calvary on the start: they will do a good job. In my case i would be beatten when attacking Ancyra, because there were those wild-men infantry and EVERY unit you can have will be needed when fighting there: trust me, as i have lost many, many soldiers in there, and the city was taken on big cost.

Well, by now you have Asia Minor: do not expand east and west at the same time, thats my opinion: youll have a lot of work with AS and Ptolies: they wont let you in peace. Make alliances with Macs/ Epeiros/ Getai (but have a good deffence in Byzantion anyway... because you never know ;-) ) and kick some AS and Ptolies butts!

In my game (its around 120BC) i have Alexandria, Memphis, Babylon and Seleukeia as my borders with AS and Ptolemaioi, and i still didnt go further then Byzantion: right now im building some good armies and i will attack Getai.

(again, dont lough on my bad englist )

[Fluvius Camillus]

The best way to begin With Potos, from my expirience is next:

1) declare war on AS and take their cities in Asia Minor immediately (Mazaka, then Sadris)
2) then, take all eleutheroi cities in AM, except Halicarnass, because Ptolies will declare war against you when you attack it. My order was: Ancyra, Sinope, Byzantion, Nikaia, Pergamon)
3) When almost all the rebel cities in AM are yours (except Halicarnass), boost up your economy and army and wait until Ptolies lay siege on Halicarnass: in my case they had full stack in siege, but were beaten there: then attack them immediately: lay siege to Side and take it next in turn. Tarsos is next.
4) Dont be modest: take Mytilena from Macedonians: sooner or later they will attack you because they want Pergamon, which now yours)

at this moment you have a very, very good position. Keep boosting your economy and army and wait for good moment to conquer forward. Trapezus and Ani-Kamah are easy to be taken.

dont disband your calvary on the start: they will do a good job. In my case i would be beatten when attacking Ancyra, because there were those wild-men infantry and EVERY unit you can have will be needed when fighting there: trust me, as i have lost many, many soldiers in there, and the city was taken on big cost.

Well, by now you have Asia Minor: do not expand east and west at the same time, thats my opinion: youll have a lot of work with AS and Ptolies: they wont let you in peace. Make alliances with Macs/ Epeiros/ Getai (but have a good deffence in Byzantion anyway... because you never know ;-) ) and kick some AS and Ptolies butts!

In my game (its around 120BC) i have Alexandria, Memphis, Babylon and Seleukeia as my borders with AS and Ptolemaioi, and i still didnt go further then Byzantion: right now im building some good armies and i will attack Getai.

(again, dont lough on my bad englist )

I did the opposite.

Firstly I never rely on allies to defend a border, allies attack you if they are next to you. (I didnt declare the war on AS right away though). Later on I took large amounts of mercenaries, more reason recruiting them was to deny them from the enemy rather than need.

I did not declare war on the AS immediately, those nice people really do a good job killing the wild men in Ancyra.

Also I must admit I had some luck, because I did not attack the AS right away, the AS and the ptolies trashed each other in a way that they both had problems fielding fullstacks.

I dont disband units, I used the smaller western army to take Side (roleplay diplomacy, cash and less upkeep). I used my eastern army to starve Ani kamah, as assaulting would take too many casualties with my minor army. Then on to Kotais, there I starved it too. The remainder of troops defeated the Hayasdan by fighting in front of their only city. Inside I found the Hayasdan were so nice to build some large barracks for me. Finally I took Mtskheta (north of Armavir). From then on all my troops were too small too conquer any more towns, I was 30.000 in debt, but these cities produced 1000 profit per season.

I used a FM and two depleted groups of pantodapoi to build forts in the Caucasian passes, to block the Sauromatae.

After I came out of debt I retrained and recruited phalanx in Armavir and took Trapezous. Then the unavoidable happened, AS attacked me, easily repelled and took Mazaka. Then I hastened to take the western AM Seleucid cities and took KH halicarnassus (Whom I was at war with). I then focused on taking Tarsos and Pergamum, from Tarsos to Antioch made my supremacy complete. I mopped up the final Rebbelious AM cities and then took Byzantion from Epeiros, killing their king Ptolemaios. Another army took Kypros, Rhodes and Krete. The rebel city taking army was done, and went to conquer the Bosphoran cities.

Defeating the Epeirotes, AS, KH and Ptolies proved my supremacy in the surrounding regions. KH almost completely took out my ally Makedon, which had me a threat less and a nice excuse to conquer mainland KH Greece.

In the east the levant and Mesopotamia were taken, the two largest Diadochi were unable to assemble troops fast enough to stop me.

ATM I conquered the Ptolemaic power bases, leaving their final cities soft targets, same goes for AS. Eastern border consisting of Charax - Susa - Ectabana.

In the west I am fighting the Epeirote homeland with my somewhat depleted army in Greece, still strong enough for the task. Probably Makedonia will follow to pacify the country.

There was my story!

[Masterth]

I recently saw someone asking for advice on how to win with Pontos, and then reading the description for Pontos in game saw that it was nigh-impossible i couldn't resist the challenge.

I started the game on M/M. I was going to assess the starting situation and then set the difficulty level accordingly. I see that i start with 1 province that has barely any population or infrastructure, 5000 minai that was going to disappear as soon as i hit end turn and an army dwarfed both in size and quality by the two other nations that start in the same area that i do. Seeing all this i decided that M/M was justified.

I started by taking the two cities which have your armies close by. The one to the north of your capital and the one on the northwest coast. The battles were easy, i didn't have any number of casualties worth mentioning, but what did hurt was the fact that i had to leave either a full unit behind or a family member to keep the order, and set taxes to low. I decided to leave the skirmisher units behind.

I thought about using the 5000 minai to hire mercenaries but there wasn't anything worth buying, and even if there was in the long run it wouldn't have been of much use to me.

So i marched on, combined my two armies together and took Ankyra. With its mine i began making a little money each turn, but with 10,000 debt there was still nothing i could do but sit and wait. That's when the grey monster started laying siege to my cities. So i look at my situation and it's so hopeless that even Hannibal or Alexander themselves would shy away from the avenue of military action.

I have 4 cities, not even lightly defended, just a unit of skirmishers to keep the peace, and 2 have a FM in them because i didn't want to lose my line infantry or slingers, i needed them for the army.

I have an army, if you can call it that, with 3 full strength units of levy phalangites and one 1/4 strength unit of phalangites, a half unit of slingers which were badly mauled in a previous battle, a half unit of medium cavalry which has been molested in every battle since i started yet has no experience and a king with a very large bodyguard and 3 bronze chevrons.

In the west of my humble kingdom i face 2 Seleukid cities which are pumping out medium phalanxes, heavy skirmishers, thureophoroi and mercenaries. That's where my army is, and i know i can never beat these alone. In the east of the kingdom my capital is under siege by a half stack of medium phalanxes, heavy skirmishers and thureophoroi, and i have no forces to do anything about them.

So, it's a foregone conclusion. I will lose, no question, so i won't even bother to continue.

Now, i want a success story, if anybody has one. Is it possible to get up on your feet in a Pontos campaign?

I have done it on M/M. Am trying to do it at the moment on VH/VH. Totally ridiculous though, M/M is ok, you just need excellent generalship and a lot of spies!

[Zim]

I just started a VH/M Pontos campaign with the advice from this thread and it's gone quite well. Started by taking Sinope but suffered some losses. Traded my Seleucid alliance for one with Ptolemy and kicked the former out of Asia minor after a couple tough battles. Since I've slowly been spreading across the peninsula, and finally just took Crimea and the Greece, the latter of which was controlled by Macedonia, who were at war with my ally Epiros.

Does anybody have any standard armies they use as Pontos? I started with lots of of the weak native spearmen backed by Caucasian archers from Mazaka, moving to native phalangites backed by archers and Galatian auxilaries.

I'm finally getting a bit more variety in the types of troops I can hire, noticed Pontos' "elite" phalangites are quite weak and absurdly expensive, and they're rather low both in line and elite troops... it's been an interesting challenge.

[MerlinusCDXX]

My Pontic armies consist mostly of regional Celts (Tindanotae), regional Hoplitai, Celto-Hellenic Hoplitai, and Thraikioi Prodromoi in the West/Asia Minor. In the east I use Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Khuveshavagan (Kataphraktoi-lite) for Archers, I stick with the Caucasians or use the cheap Persians in the East.

[Zim]

I definitely like to use a lot of the regional Galatian troops, hadn't really used the Celtic hoplites much after having some bad luck with them in an Epiros campaign...maybe I should give them another look.

I didn't even know I'd get some kind of Cataphract unit. Is it available further to the east of Asia Minor?

[MerlinusCDXX]

I definitely like to use a lot of the regional Galatian troops, hadn't really used the Celtic hoplites much after having some bad luck with them in an Epiros campaign...maybe I should give them another look.

I didn't even know I'd get some kind of Cataphract unit. Is it available further to the east of Asia Minor?

It's not a real Kataphract, but they do have frontal horse armor. They are available in Karkathiokerta and points east. They are about the equal of Hetairoi, a damn sight better than any of the other non-FM cav Pontos gets. And, yeah, the Celto-Hellenikoi look weak when you're playing Epeiros, 'cause the Epeirotes can come up with better infantry pretty easily, but as Pontos, they're a good alternative to Pontikoi Thorakitai, which just suck for some reason.

[Zim]

Interesting, looking at one of the old Pontos AARs it looks like they can recruit some kind of heavy archer in Syria as well. I've been expanding the wrong direction.

I'm going to give the Celto-Hellenic Hoplitai another look, I always thought they had a neat concept.

Just started being able to recruit the Thorakitai, they're not so great? I've had good luck with the heavy Galatian spearmen despite hearing negative things about them here before, but as you mentioned Pontos does not have the number or level of elite infantry of some of the Hellenic factions in the area, so it may be making them look better.

[Cyclops]

Interesting, looking at one of the old Pontos AARs it looks like they can recruit some kind of heavy archer in Syria as well. I've been expanding the wrong direction.

I'm going to give the Celto-Hellenic Hoplitai another look, I always thought they had a neat concept.

Just started being able to recruit the Thorakitai, they're not so great? I've had good luck with the heavy Galatian spearmen despite hearing negative things about them here before, but as you mentioned Pontos does not have the number or level of elite infantry of some of the Hellenic factions in the area, so it may be making them look better.

Never used the Celto-Hellenes, just seem like an abomination but I must try them (once i conclude my current Casse-Mess).

Pontic Thorakitai did not overly impress me but the Galatian spears were satisfactory to my needs IIRC. Nothing wrong with a line up of classical hoplites either, or even basic phalangites, providing you can get them a few chevrons.

[Tanit]

Celto-Hellenic hoplites are best used as reserve troops on the flanks of your phalanx to wrap around the enemy. The enemy will usually try to attck the units on the immediate flank of a phalanx and the celto-Hellenes have enough holding power to force them in towards the center where they get mowed down. My current Pontus campaign is at 245 BC and I own almost all of Anatolia and have forced peace with AS and Ptolies.

[MerlinusCDXX]

My Pontic armies consist mostly of regional Celts (Tindanotae), regional Hoplitai, Celto-Hellenic Hoplitai, and Thraikioi Prodromoi in the West/Asia Minor. In the east I use Pantodapoi Phalangitai and Khuveshavagan (Kataphraktoi-lite) for Archers, I stick with the Caucasians or use the cheap Persians in the East.

Celto-Hellenic hoplites are best used as reserve troops on the flanks of your phalanx to wrap around the enemy. The enemy will usually try to attck the units on the immediate flank of a phalanx and the celto-Hellenes have enough holding power to force them in towards the center where they get mowed down. My current Pontus campaign is at 245 BC and I own almost all of Anatolia and have forced peace with AS and Ptolies.

Yeah, I use the Celto-Hellenics the same way Tanit does, with the regular Hoplitai just on the inside of them, with a phalangitai or 2 in the center (I don't usually bother with the underpowered and overpriced elite phalanx-I just use the plain old levies). My right flank assault force is the Galatians (tindanotae and the Galatian spears), usually sent after generals or other scary cavalry (tindanotae get sent after other elites when they are done) My current Pontos Campaign H/M 172 BC has me in a border war with the Romani over N Italy and ready to take the 3 settlements on the N Black sea rim from the Sauromatae, the AS is a buffer state with the Ptolemaioi (allies), Hayasdan lost their homelands to Pahlava, but took some of the steppe, and I mounted a joint punitive expedition with the AS against the Ptolemaioi and gave the captured lands to the Saba (hey, we all gotta do our part to eradicate the yellow fever). Getai are gone, Maks have Crete, KH have Rhodes, and Epeiros is now just the Megale Hellas in Italy (they were kicked out by the Maks and make a great ally against Rome) , and I hope to the gods that Pahlava plays nice (they own all the former AS East of me, which is everything East of Seleukeia). If you go into Europe with Pontos, Tylis is a must have for the variety of great Celtic and Thraikioi regionals

[Zim]

Gotten quite a bit further in the game (220s) and things are going well. I actually have started writing for an aar with Pontos, might start posting it in the next couple days...

Troop choices have been expanding considerably with higher regional MICs in my Anatolian provinces plus the Crimea. The Celtic hoplites have been great for defending the flanks of my phalangitai and the Klerouchoi (sp?) are just enough cheaper than Pontos' "elite" phalangites that I can base armies around them, when I'm not basing them around Galatian or other regionals. It's fun building armies around generals (phalangitai and greek regionals for Hellenic generals, Galatians for Galatian generals, etc.).

Built a horsearcher army in the Crimea to help conquer Epeiros but lost most of them in a forest battle where I mistakenly thought I could still win because I outnumbered them. I never was great with HAs...

I have a heck of a time keeping my Skythian semi Cataphracts from dying in droves despite being careful with them, hopefully I have better luck with the proper Pontic Cataphract lites.

Thanks for all the help. This has been one of my best campaigns. It's fun playing a faction that doesn't have a lot of uber troops, and not being able to retrain many of my core units all over my empire has made logistics more challenging.

One last question, does Pontos get anything from the march of time? The official EB website shows a "late" bodyguard. Rome's been losing a lot of ground to Carthage, I'll have to help them if I need them to get a huge city...

I really like playing as Pontos

[MerlinusCDXX]

Yes, you do get a late bodyguard for Pontos with the March of Time, but, IMO, the early bodyguards are a bit better. The late BG, IIRC, are equivalent to the Greek merc general, while the early BG are a version of the Khuveshavagan (Cataphract lite that I mentioned earlier).

[option]

Fired up a Pontos campaign (VH/M) myself, came close to elimination in the first few turns at the hands of AS but am now stabilized and asserting control over Anatolia. Ancyra is actually very easy to take, just build a bunch of Caucasian Archers from a level one MIC in Mazaka and shred the shirtless bastards. I think the most difficult aspect of Pontos is enduring those cacaphonous war horns every time you fight a battle.

[Cyclops]

... It's fun building armies around generals (phalangitai and greek regionals for Hellenic generals, Galatians for Galatian generals, etc.)....

I'm a big fan of that idea too. Having a spirited eastern general running a mixed force next to an old fashioned Hellenic city state army and fighting them in different styles gives great flavour to a campaign. I love the idea you recruited a HA army to take on Epiros and they got wasted, its the sort of thing you might read in Polybius:

"..the next year the Pontian king sent for his Skythian allies who raised a great force and marched against the Epirotes, but came to grief in the unfamiliar forests of Thrace. I only mention this to show the folly of relying on Barbarians who are fearsome in their own lands, but are easily disconcerted by unfamiliar terrain..."

[chenkai11]

Id like to see a Screen shot or proof of any 1 who has completed a camaign with pontus on V/H , V/H hayasdan is easy cas u just keep requesting ceasefire from the selucids everytime they attack u, makes it boring and unrealistic :(

They do? Then the AS must really hate me when I played Hayasdan.

[Zim]

That reminds me I've been sitting on chapter one of an aar for my Pontos game. I'll have to post it as soon as I finish one for another ongoing campaign I have going... not sure I'll be able to come up with anything as good as what you just posted, though.

The Skythian army was eventually reinforced up to moderate strength and won a few battles, but generally took a backseat to one of my Hellenic armies that finished up the war. We'll see if the Skythians' star rises again in the Empire of Pontos.

I'm a big fan of that idea too. Having a spirited eastern general running a mixed force next to an old fashioned Hellenic city state army and fighting them in different styles gives great flavour to a campaign. I love the idea you recruited a HA army to take on Epiros and they got wasted, its the sort of thing you might read in Polybius:

"..the next year the Pontian king sent for his Skythian allies who raised a great force and marched against the Epirotes, but came to grief in the unfamiliar forests of Thrace. I only mention this to show the folly of relying on Barbarians who are fearsome in their own lands, but are easily disconcerted by unfamiliar terrain..."

[option]

What's the deal with Pontos not being able to recruit factional troops in half its homeland provinces? I have a lot of homeland govs in Anatolia and half of them still can't produce any factional troops with level 2 or 3 MICs. Is there even a reason for that?

[Zim]

I can't really say as to the reason but I find it best to build level 4 govs in the majority of Anatolia at first. Build up the MICs, which will give a lot of good Greek units (as well as Celtic in Ankara and some Thraician units in the northwest). Klerouchoi Phalangitai are available in a few settlements with high level native MICs. I know they're not great if you're the Sleucids or Ptolemies but as Pontos they offer about the same stats as their "elite" phalangitai and are about 200 mnai cheaper...

There are a few settlements you can get higher level factional troops from in Anatolia although it takes some patience (first couple of levels of your factional MIC will get nothing).

What little territory I've moved eastward has tended to have more factional troops, especially the eastern units at the lower MIC levels (and semi-Cataphracts at the higher as I've learned in this thread).

What's the deal with Pontos not being able to recruit factional troops in half its homeland provinces? I have a lot of homeland govs in Anatolia and half of them still can't produce any factional troops with level 2 or 3 MICs. Is there even a reason for that?

[MerlinusCDXX]

I was a bit inaccurate with my take on the Pontic unit roster. It appears that the Khuveshavagan (semi-cataphract cavalry) are only available as (early) bodyguards for Pontos and are not recruitable. Perhaps I was confusing them for Hayasdan, who do get the recruitable version. Pontos does get lonchphoroi hippeis in their regional MIC in Hellenistic regions though, and they are a decent heavy cavalry choice. Again, sorry if my post seemed misleading in any way. Another good cavalry choice for Pontos are the Skuda Uzaedette (sp?), the Skythian noble cavalry, though their AoR is quite small, and only available north of the Black sea.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I was a bit inaccurate with my take on the Pontic unit roster. It appears that the Khuveshavagan (semi-cataphract cavalry) are only available as (early) bodyguards for Pontos and are not recruitable. Perhaps I was confusing them for Hayasdan, who do get the recruitable version. Pontos does get lonchphoroi hippeis in their regional MIC in Hellenistic regions though, and they are a decent heavy cavalry choice. Again, sorry if my post seemed misleading in any way. Another good cavalry choice for Pontos are the Skuda Uzaedette (sp?), the Skythian noble cavalry, though their AoR is quite small, and only available north of the Black sea.

Khuveshagan are recruitable as Pontos in the Armenian lands.... Experiencing it myself and the recruitment viewer can help

~Fluvius

[MerlinusCDXX]

I must have an old RV...it's been a long time since my last go at Pontos, so I forget stuff.

[machinor]

I'm a big fan of that idea too. Having a spirited eastern general running a mixed force next to an old fashioned Hellenic city state army and fighting them in different styles gives great flavour to a campaign. I love the idea you recruited a HA army to take on Epiros and they got wasted, its the sort of thing you might read in Polybius:

"..the next year the Pontian king sent for his Skythian allies who raised a great force and marched against the Epirotes, but came to grief in the unfamiliar forests of Thrace. I only mention this to show the folly of relying on Barbarians who are fearsome in their own lands, but are easily disconcerted by unfamiliar terrain..."

Dude, you should totally write an AAR in Polybius' style.