Need Help on Celtic Factions

[Skullheadhq]

I want to play a celtic faction for a change. But in battle i always get killed when playing celts. Someone got some good tips for them in the battlefield?

[LordCurlyton]

How are you getting killed? What are you doing now in battles? I'm playing as the Arveni and am not having a massively difficult time, though pikes will be a bear when it comes to that.

[Skullheadhq]

i mostly use the this formation:
Doesn't seem to work with Keltoi


////////Missle////////
((((Cav)))------Infantry---------((((Cav)))

[Yyrkoon]

Try an oblique formation. I learned about it while reading Dodge's Alexander. Good idea.

inf inf
inf inf
-------inf inf
------------inf inf
-----------------inf inf
---missile-------------
----------------------Cavalry

This way the enemy is tempted to either a) engage your forward most position allowing you to flank with the rest of your army or b) you break their left and start a chain rout because they hold a line.

[LordCurlyton]

i mostly use the this formation:
Doesn't seem to work with Keltoi


////////Missle////////
((((Cav)))------Infantry---------((((Cav)))

Hmm...mine isn't terribly much more complex than that.

___                 /////////////////Slingers//////////////////                           
 l                   -------Mix of Spears and Swords in Guard-------                  
 l                                               
 l                         -------naked Infantry of some sort-------
 l
 l                               /////////Archers//////////////
Cav
somewhere      -------Swords and Spears not in Guard---------
on
the
wings (both sides)
 l
 l
 l
 l
 l
___                                     General

I find that the slingers and archers can decimate the lightly armored opposition you face in the Sweboz and Luso and your line infantry is heavy enough to wear down and win against both as well, though the Luso fights are usually higher casualties due to the many AP and higher lethality weapons they have. Against the Romans the naked infantry (Uirosoisos or Gaesetae) is a surefire bet to get them to rout-ability quickly enough that their generally more well-armored infantry can't eat you up. Against pikes, well, pick your sacrificial lambs, put them in guard and break the flanks ASAP since pikes tend to rout MUCH easier once you start surrounding them.
In any case the first line holds, the second line flanks. Tends to work well. Even if you are minus or choose not to use the naked infantry its still a solid formation. And once you are rich, unified, and in the Time of Soldiers you get infantry every bit as well armored as other factions, and every bit as expensive.
EDIT: *grumbles at the formatting*

[antisocialmunky]

My experience is that early Celtic units are definitely not the sit there and not die type of units that the Mediterranian Factions have. Instead they are high attack, low armor, has javelin units. If I'm playing with Celtic type stuff, I always hold a reserve of men so I can send fresh troops in after my initial troops are spent. The kill rate for Celt vs Celt is quite high so routing is annoying.

Also:

Code Tags
Make Things
Line Up

[LordCurlyton]

Always wondered what was the exact function of the code tag.
Its still annoying that you have to use it so it keeps the spaces.

[KozaK13]

Enough tactics, fight like a Gaul...

I find putting my most elite inf in first row with cav on flanks and slingers behind works fine, using the celtic levy spears as a second line to flank or rear end the enemy once it has engaged the first line. Though being very successful with your cavalry helps aswell.

[HayGuy]

With Casse I keep my chariot units behind my chaotic line of skirmishers (who I use to flank) and whatever line units I have (those that do not have skirmisher in their name). Given a chance I use the chariots to mow down weaker infantry units and park them out of range for the fear effect. Man to man battles between Celts do take a loooooooong time though so be patient.

[Aper]

Stop thinking like an hellenistic general and all that "hammer and anvil stuff".
Replace your current bodyguards with elite infantry, like sweboz and greeks (A MUST WITH CASSE).
...
KILL'EM ALL!!!

1) family members proudly in the first line (guard mode works wonderfully against non elites and save your stamina)
2) swordsmen in the second line: SAVE THEM AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, high lethality swords and no armor means that even if you win you'll suffer huge casualties.
3)LOTS LOTS LOTS of slingers (3-10): barbarians fall down like flies against missiles and after gaining a little experience, nothing can stop them
4) keep the rabble inside cities: you don't need meatshields, UNTIL YOU FACE HELLENISTIC AND EASTERN CAVALRY
5) place near the frontline some frightening guys.
6) recruit a little cavalry only for pursuing: YOU ARE NOT ALEXANDER, if you like surrounding a lot, go east

Celts are great fun, keep on fighting!

[antisocialmunky]

Stop thinking like an hellenistic general and all that "hammer and anvil stuff".
Replace your current bodyguards with elite infantry, like sweboz and greeks (A MUST WITH CASSE).
...
KILL'EM ALL!!!

1) family members proudly in the first line (guard mode works wonderfully against non elites and save your stamina)
2) swordsmen in the second line: SAVE THEM AS MUCH AS YOU CAN, high lethality swords and no armor means that even if you win you'll suffer huge casualties.
3)LOTS LOTS LOTS of slingers (3-10): barbarians fall down like flies against missiles and after gaining a little experience, nothing can stop them
4) keep the rabble inside cities: you don't need meatshields, UNTIL YOU FACE HELLENISTIC AND EASTERN CAVALRY
5) place near the frontline some frightening guys.
6) recruit a little cavalry only for pursuing: YOU ARE NOT ALEXANDER, if you like surrounding a lot, go east

Celts are great fun, keep on fighting!

Yeah, pretty much that. Leverage your strength of tons of dangerous dudes to compensate for the your weakness of clothe pants armor.

Also, javelins are hilariously good against your half naked neighbors. If you sit still, you'll even throw them first.

[V.T. Marvin]

Very nice and even quite "history-like" is to actually use your skirmishers as a screen in front of your main line. Deploy them in LOOSE formation, skirmish-mode OFF, gard-mode ON, 4-6 men deep just in front of your line, where usually everybody also have a few javelins. ut fire-at will of those line troops ON as well. It is especially great when you are defending, but works fine in offence too.
The beauty of this line up is, that the enemy will waste its javelins (which would otherwise cause a lot damage to your usually not-so-much-armored line troops) on the relatively cheap skirmishers who being in loose formation usually do not suffer too high casualties. On the other hand, the skirmishers pepper the enemy with their missiles and once engaged in melee delay him still while your line troops hurl their javelins in turn. Thus the enemy is severely weakened and his morale lowered by successive volleys of javelins even before the "real" battle fully begins. Once your main line dispatch all of their javelins, order the skirmishers to retreat back to safety and your fresh line infantry to charge the enemy. Usually the rsult is a short melee followed by a mass rout of demoralized enemy with very low losses on your side.
Simple, quasi-historical (no need for noobish slinger armies or too much cavalry), works-like a charm!

[Aper]

no need for noobish slinger armies

ehm
let me say at least this: if everything else fails, go slinging!

(however, very good suggestions Marvin)

[Watchman]

Although from what I understand of it, Celtic armies historically seem to have disposed of few if any dedicated skirmishers - which notoriously bit them in the buttocks at for example Telamon. The impression I've gotten is that they didn't generally regard such as worth bothering with - and given that their close-combat infantry could normally get to grips with the enemy main line very fast, probably not unreasonably. (Actually, the closest thing to skirmishers the major warbands seem to have had seems to have been the lighter cavalry with their noted agility and javelins.)

Probably some kind of warrior-class machoBS sentiment was also involved.

[V.T. Marvin]

Thanks for the info, Watchman. I am withdrawing from my "quasi-historical" statement, but I still maintain that it is a viable tactics. Especially used with benefit when playing as Romani or Lusotanna (where even EB AI does this quite often, BTW).

[gamegeek2]

Well, it seems that their heavy infantry units carried Javelins. go figure.

[LordCurlyton]

Its definitely quite viable but I prefer to use archers or slingers (the only real skirmishers mainland Celts get) in the front where the enemy will usually either charge forward in anger or send cavalry forward in anger to "disperse" my troops. Keep skirmish mode on and that inevitably leads cavalry into the meat grinder that is my main line. Especially good for getting the really heavy cav to engage your really heavy infantry, especially considering that the heaviest cav a Celt gets is Brihentin, which would only make a solid medium cavalry in the cav-friendly factions (Hellenic and Eastern).

[Watchman]

Of course it's a viable tactic, that's why most military traditions not only screened the heavy-infantry line with dedicated open-order skirmishers but more often than not went on to develop rather highly trained specialist troops for the purpose.
Like I said, the Celts probably had some warrior-class attitude problems there (much like the hoplite-obsessed Greeks once had, although to a lesser degree). If you look at the "properly" Celtic units available throughout you should notice a definite absence of specialist skirmishers in most regions, particularly Gaul, and conversely a serious abundance of fast-moving shock infantry (most of which carry javelins and probably make decent enough ad hoc skirmishers in loose formation, but that's not the point); AFAIK even the slingers were more of a "commoner levy" militia mainly used to defend settlements (apparently, oppidia were specifically designed to maximise the effects of such defensive fire), and maybe support assaults against them, and while I cannot bring myself to agree with the Celtic archers being a reform unit (how hard can it be to dragoon a bunch of hunters from the woods, anyway...?) it would seem clear from what I know that Celtic armies rarely if ever featured them in any larger number or importance.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there's nothing keeping you from doing the smart thing and making full use of skirmish screens; just that it probably isn't very historical, and doesn't really "roleplay" the way the Celtic warrior class seems to have regarded warfare. A bit like not spamming Triarii and Extraordinarii with the Romans, you know ?

[LordCurlyton]

TBH I only have used a skirmisher screen of sorts against those with actual skirmishers, though my preferred method is to use my Leuce Epos to drive away their skirmishers and brutalize their line with mine. The luso I'm basically am forced to do so as I was taking inordinate casualties from their faster infantry with similar punch so I whittle them down and draw them to me. Of course, against a Carthage AI that feels no shame in sending a stack full of ultra-elites against me I have no problems using every trick I need to ensure those damnable Elite African Pikes break ASAP.

[antisocialmunky]

I've never really had much luck with skirmishers in open battlefields. :-\ I mean, they usually get cut up pretty good and the Javelins aren't that great. I usually just used massed archers behind a heavy infantry line. When I deploy skirmishers infront, the AI usually charges everything in and cause a mess.

I usually either flank with them and javelin in the back or keep them behind my main line as a reserve. Also it isn't a bad thing to meet a charging enemy with a wall of javelins to the face.

Perhaps we can make use of the 'lowered morale' stat effect(from hornets and dead cattle projectiles) in EBII to make them more effective.

[LordCurlyton]

Meh, they are quite effective as long as you don't expect them to take the heavily armored units of any given faction out in droves. They function quite well as irritants who entice a mass charge or as units that can severely damage light-to-medium quality infantry. My priorities for skirmisher use are thus, in order:
Help establish cavalry superiority by luring enemy cavalry into unfavorable situations
Entice medium and/or heavy units to charge the (preferably) center of my infantry line, which will generally contain a solid set of spears or some of my really heavy sword infantry. This will allow my flanks to, well, flank
Find a weak or exploitable spot in the enemy's line and weaken that area with concentrated javelin-fire. This is only done after cavalry superiority is obtained.

Expect to take casualties in almost any battle with your skirmishers but then they are generally cheap and easy to replace. To wit, the best skirmishers that I have encountered or used is the Gaesemica(sP?), the Celtiberian Javelineers. They come with a nice bundle of javelins plus they are also a very effective light infantry, which has killed more than one Luso FM in my service.

[theoldbelgian]

i tend to disagree the lowest getai skirmishers are cheap and are excellent at taking out elephants ( I have seen it happen and it was beautiful)
they also hold their own against light infantry and can hold a line for a while
I conquered nearly all of the Thracian tribes except for the one in Asia minor due to epeirote invasion
with an army which was nearly a full stack which contained around 50% skirmishers

[Subotan]

I once saw four units of Akonsitai take down elephants that were trying to smash through my wall, one at a time. It was like watching art in motion, except with Elephant and the pwning of Epeiros.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I conquered nearly all of the Thracian tribes except for the one in Asia minor due to epeirote invasion
with an army which was nearly a full stack which contained around 50% skirmishers

Well, if those were the Dakian Komatai or even the elite Komatai or Thrakian skirmishers, then yes, you could have a whole stack of them and be able to defeat just about anything. Those Thrakian skirmishers especially are pretty much the most effective and versatile in all of EB, while still relatively inexpensive.

[Cyclops]

The basic point (made so eloquently by anitsocialmunky and others) is that 3 keltoi factions bleed a lot, until reforms and regionals give them some staying power. You need to find a way to finish battles quickly (using fear units of the wheeled or naked variety) and manage your recruitment/population options carefully so full stacks are always at hand.

Fighting like a kelt means breasting up to the opponent in a brave way and hammering them. This doesn't have to mean a full frontal attack all along the line but from RP perspective I'd be looking to cut a hole in the enemy formation (with swords or horsemen) and pour through it (with no pants on so they break fast), rather than a shifty, skulky Getai/Lusso style series of ambushes and feints, or some cumbrous steamrolling spearwall/phalanx arrangement where everyone's following orders.

As mentioned, foot FM frontlines are a charm. I run my Swevboz campaign on FM's and a handful of mercs, leaving the tribal levy available for breeding purposes (vital on huge). Not entirely keltic, but if you're prepared to pay the price 4 units of Keltic minor kings makes a nasty battle line.

Conversely I cannot make the Casse chariot FM's work for me, they tend to spectate and pursue, or die. When I oppose them they chew my men like combine harvesters. I lost 2 whole stacks (mostly superior or elite) to the Casse in my current Lusso campaign and counted myself lucky to get off that cheaply. When i stormed the last city their still mighty stacks all went rebel and fortunately ther chariots became Brihentin, something even my levy spearmen could handle.

I once saw four units of Akonsitai take down elephants that were trying to smash through my wall, one at a time. It was like watching art in motion, except with Elephant and the pwning of Epeiros.

Just had that in the Balearics with the Cartho's trying to rush Boccoris with bush elephants and elites vs 3 ambushers and a FM inside (ah the sound of a toppling elephant). Were your fellas piffing spears or actually engage hand-to-tusk? My guys were just piffing but it was a most satisfying win.

[antisocialmunky]

Thracian Skirmishers are probably one of the best units in the game. Period.

[lenin96]

When I tried the Getai I used the Dacian Skirmishers as infantry other than skirmishing.