"Huge Iron Age haul of coins found"

[a completely inoffensive name]

Just saw this on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...lk/7835228.stm

Very short article, but I posted it just because of its relevance to the EB time period (albeit late).

FTA:
"Jude Plouviez, of the Suffolk County Council Archaeological Service, said the coins dated from 40BC to AD15."

[Antinous]

[Aemilius Paulus]

824 gold staters

Wow, that is quite a haul. I wonder who was the lucky guy and what he/she did with the coins. I know that numerous nations have certain rules & regulations regarding the discovery of artifacts, most commonly rules that state one who finds an artifact has to give it to the government for a variable compensation. I don't think UK has such rules, does it? Does 100% of the discovery go to the discoverer?

[antisocialmunky]

He probably has to pay some taxes on it when he sells it. The only issue that might arise is where he found it(who owns the property).

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

WOW. That's a lot of coins, and right on my doorstep. It would be interesting to know the exact location when they can release it. Also, there is a law about treasure and archaeological finds so I think it will depend on who owns the land as well as the discoverer. And I think that they can't negotiate the price. i.e no ripping off museums.

EDIT: It's not the first time coinage has been found here in Suffolk either. Next to your article they have a link to the largest hoard of Roman coins ever found http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/4791274.stm

[Mediolanicus]

He probably has to pay some taxes on it when he sells it. The only issue that might arise is where he found it(who owns the property).

I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Belgium half is for the finder, half for the owner of the property. There could be one more problem. In the article it says he found the treasure with a metal detector... Again, I don't know about the UK, but here if you go look for it, whatever you find is for the state. Treasury finding is not the same thing as treasure seeking.
I wonder how that turns out. (yeah, that's what law school does to you... keep away, kids )

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I think if it's large enough to be classed as treasure then they will be compensated for it's value. The legality of using a metal detector is that you MUST have the permission of the landowner to scan on his land. Without this, the finder will get bugger all.

[Aemilius Paulus]

(yeah, that's what law school does to you... keep away, kids )

Funny that you say so. I am going to one after university. Yep, another blood-sucking lawyer. A family tradition y'know. So, is there anyone from UK around here who might know what is done with treasure according to UK laws?

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I live in Suffolk where the treasure has been found. I think that they Govt. take the treasure ad compensate the finder and the owner of the land with the value of the treasure. However the metal detector has to have had the permission of the owner to search on his land and agreed who gets what. I think that's how it works, but no guarantee.

[Mediolanicus]

Funny that you say so. I am going to one after university. Yep, another blood-sucking lawyer. A family tradition y'know.

Blood? That's what happens when you live with those old family traditions, you don't stay up to date.
We only suck money nowadays

(btw: I'm still studying myself and the organisation in continental Europe is a bit different. I say law school, but in my case that means studying law at the university.)

[theoldbelgian]

I don't know how it is in the UK, but here in Belgium half is for the finder, half for the owner of the property. There could be one more problem. In the article it says he found the treasure with a metal detector... Again, I don't know about the UK, but here if you go look for it, whatever you find is for the state. Treasury finding is not the same thing as treasure seeking.
I wonder how that turns out. (yeah, that's what law school does to you... keep away, kids )

Mmh thats strange I always heard that old coins werent put under treasure but under an archeoligic find and that belongs to the government although I think you get a finders fee but you are the lawyer-in-spe so I am not going for a discussion I cannot dare to hope to win :d

[Lucius Verenus]

It's been a while but basically the law is that if the find is determined to have been deliberatley hidden then it is classed as 'Treasure Trove' and the government has the right to it and will pay the 'owner; the nominal value of the find.

If the find is determined to have been accidentally dropped then the 'owner' is entitled to sell it off, though the gov may still buy it in.

The 'owner' is determined as either the owner of the land or, if the finder was smart, split between them and the owner according to previous agreement.

So if doing metal-detecting in the UK, very wise move to get permission of the land-owner and agree on the division of any finds made before starting

[HFox]

The Crown has a right to Treasure Trove. It is exercised by the QLTR whose local representative for this purpose is the Procurator Fiscal. There is no statutory definition of Treasure Trove, but it may be described as a "portable antiquity" - and can cover virtually anything (stone, wood, metal, woven material) which has been taken out of the ground and which is thought, on the basis of its age or rarity, worth preserving for the nation.

Since a delay in reporting a find of TT may result in damage or loss to the item, and since the evidence of condition at discovering may be significant, any find of possible TT should be reported as soon as possible to Treasure Trove Unit (TTU), c/o the National Museums of Scotland, Chambers Street, Edinburgh, the local Procurator Fiscal or to the QLTR, Crown Office, Edinburgh (Failure to report a find promptly and hand it over for assessment may result in prosecution for theft or reset). (QLTR's postal address is : Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer Unit, Crown Office, Unit 5, 14a South St. Andrews Street, Edinburgh, EH2 2AZ.)

The finder of TT has no legal claim to a reward, but in practice the QLTR will arrange for payment of one, up to full market value. The reward will be withheld if the finder does not promptly report the discovery and hand over the item found, having treated it with care while it was under his control. The TTAP (which was set up in 1969 to advise the QLTR) recommends whether any item reported as TT should be disclaimed - in which case it is returned to the finder - and when claimed, to which museum the item of TT is to be allocated. The TTAP also recommends the amount of each reward, having investigated the current market value.

Where Procurators Fiscal are involved in matters of Treasure Trove, they should ensure that full details of the find and of the finder are taken, so that the reward can in due course be paid, or, if the Crown waives its right to the find, so that the item can be returned to the finder (to keep or dispose of as he or she chooses).

There is a useful website which explains the law and procedures on Treasure Trove -
http://www.treasuretrovescotland.co.uk

[Elmetiacos]

This is a statement of the law in Scotland. Suffolk is in England, where the law is not the same.

[mcantu]

wow...crappy laws. i dont think i've ever heard of anything like that in the US. if you own a piece of land, you own everything buried in it too...

[Watchman]

Well you know... back here in the Old World we actually have this thing called "ancient history"... makes for a different approach for this stuff.

[LordCurlyton]

For the record, at least here in FL you do NOT own everything you think you do. Finds like that almost certainly will be taken by the gov't and you will get some compensation if you are lucky (they seem to be wonderful at finding ways to not pay you squat). Esp. in FL, there are very specific laws on treasure finds on public lands (namely beaches), since most of our treasure happens to be the many shipwrecks (aka Spanish galleons) and after every major storm there is always a wave of new coin finds.
For the record, it should be: any finds on the shoreline or within two meters of the shore will be counted as finder's keepers, but any large exceptional finds may be taxed REALLY heavily if you choose not to sell to a proprietary gov't institution (the "be a dick and hold onto that large of a trove if you want, but we can be a bigger dick than you" law). Anything found more than two meters offshore is automatically "national treasure" or some baloney and the finder...gets squat, even though every few years or so someone thinks that a lawsuit will change the law. If its found on PRIVATE property I believe then the law is generally pretty similar to what's been posted for UK law.
I know that the laws for public finds is primarily to prevent would-be treaure hunters from ripping up all of our offshore wrecks in the hopes of finding coinage or other valuables (in one case someone got paid to take a whole CANNON from a ship). While Indy makes for a good movie (excepting the most recent) most gov'ts frown on that sort of gung-ho (mainly since most of them are not quite as altruistic). These wrecks also tend to make great dive sites, and seeing as tourism is rather big here, FL law understandably wants to keep damage at a minimum. A side benefit is that it also prevents frivolous lawsuits when said treasure-seekers would inevitably trigger a collapse in a ship and get injured or drown, at which point its somehow the gov'ts fault for not stopping them earlier.
@Watchman: Talk to the Native Americans about "ancient history". Protecting Indian burial sites is also a big deal around here and in other states. :-P

[antisocialmunky]

50 states, 50 different laws with different variations and federal law ontop of that. What you're supposed to do is find it and leave it and get some archeologists so they can establish the context of the find.

I remember in the 1990s, paleontologists found the T-rex they named Sue. However, I believe that the people who owned the land that it was on dug it up and tried to sell the thing and obliterated the context of the find.

[Subotan]

Well you know... back here in the Old World we actually have this thing called "ancient history"... makes for a different approach for this stuff.

WIN

[HFox]

The key word is crown. Unfortunately the crown holds sway still over scotland and so the same general rules apply once it is treasure trove in terms of value...its just that in Scotland everything is treasure trove, automatically belongs to the Crown until proven otherwise.

In England, NI and Wales it has to be proved to be treasure trove....the find belongs to the owner of the land until that time.

The biggest advantages of this system is it allows museums to buy these items, and allows the discoverer to attain a 'truer' value of the object if it is treasure trove. So mostly a win win system.

Before you argue....truer is used with all the usual caveats :)

[eldaran]

For those who want to know exactly what the law says, see below. In short, the person who finds it notifies the local coroner, who then acts on behalf of the crown in the future. The coroner will notify the British Museum or the National Museum of Wales, depending on where the find was made. The coroner will then decide (in council of with the museum and others) whether the find counts as 'treasure' as defined in the act. In the case of this find, it will come under the title of a 'Hoard' and as such will be taken by the crown and given to a museum. It is then for the coroner to decide (again, in council with the museum and others) what reward will be paid; usually to the landowner, however the law also allows him to reward the finder.


The Treasure Act 1996 states that:

An Act to abolish treasure trove and to make fresh provision in relation to treasure.

[4th July 1996]

Be it enacted by the Queen’s most Excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:—

1 Meaning of “treasure”

(1) Treasure is—
(a) any object at least 300 years old when found which—
(i) is not a coin but has metallic content of which at least 10 per cent by weight is precious metal;
(ii) when found, is one of at least two coins in the same find which are at least 300 years old at that time and have that percentage of precious metal; or
(iii) when found, is one of at least ten coins in the same find which are at least 300 years old at that time;
(b) any object at least 200 years old when found which belongs to a class designated under section 2(1);
(c) any object which would have been treasure trove if found before the commencement of section 4;
(d) any object which, when found, is part of the same find as—
(i) an object within paragraph (a), (b) or (c) found at the same time or earlier; or
(ii) an object found earlier which would be within paragraph (a) or (b) if it had been found at the same time.
(2) Treasure does not include objects which are—
(a) unworked natural objects, or
(b) minerals as extracted from a natural deposit,

[snip]

3 Supplementary
(1) This section supplements section 1.
(2) “Coin” includes any metal token which was, or can reasonably be assumed to have been, used or intended for use as or instead of money.
(3) “Precious metal” means gold or silver.
(4) When an object is found, it is part of the same find as another object if—
(a) they are found together,
(b) the other object was found earlier in the same place where they had been left together,
(c) the other object was found earlier in a different place, but they had been left together and had become separated before being found.
(5) If the circumstances in which objects are found can reasonably be taken to indicate that they were together at some time before being found, the objects are to be presumed to have been left together, unless shown not to have been.
(6) An object which can reasonably be taken to be at least a particular age is to be presumed to be at least that age, unless shown not to be.
(7) An object is not treasure if it is wreck within the meaning of Part IX of the [1995 c. 21.] Merchant Shipping Act 1995.

4 Ownership of treasure which is found
(1) When treasure is found, it vests, subject to prior interests and rights—
(a) in the franchisee, if there is one;
(b) otherwise, in the Crown.
(2) Prior interests and rights are any which, or which derive from any which—
(a) were held when the treasure was left where it was found, or
(b) if the treasure had been moved before being found, were held when it was left where it was before being moved.
(3) If the treasure would have been treasure trove if found before the commencement of this section, neither the Crown nor any franchisee has any interest in it or right over it except in accordance with this Act.
(4) This section applies—
(a) whatever the nature of the place where the treasure was found, and
(b) whatever the circumstances in which it was left (including being lost or being left with no intention of recovery).

[snip]

8 Duty of finder to notify coroner
(1) A person who finds an object which he believes or has reasonable grounds for believing is treasure must notify the coroner for the district in which the object was found before the end of the notice period.
(2) The notice period is fourteen days beginning with—
(a) the day after the find; or
(b) if later, the day on which the finder first believes or has reason to believe the object is treasure.
(3) Any person who fails to comply with subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to—
(a) imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months;
(b) a fine of an amount not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale; or
(c) both.
(4) In proceedings for an offence under this section, it is a defence for the defendant to show that he had, and has continued to have, a reasonable excuse for failing to notify the coroner.
(5) If the office of coroner for a district is vacant, the person acting as coroner for that district is the coroner for the purposes of subsection (1).

9 Procedure for inquests
(1) In this section, “inquest” means an inquest held under section 7.
(2) A coroner proposing to conduct an inquest must notify—
(a) the British Museum, if his district is in England; or
(b) the National Museum of Wales, if it is in Wales.
(3) Before conducting the inquest, the coroner must take reasonable steps to notify—
(a) any person who it appears to him may have found the treasure; and
(b) any person who, at the time the treasure was found, occupied land which it appears to him may be where it was found.
(4) During the inquest the coroner must take reasonable steps to notify any such person not already notified.
(5) Before or during the inquest, the coroner must take reasonable steps—
(a) to obtain from any person notified under subsection (3) or (4) the names and addresses of interested persons; and
(b) to notify any interested person whose name and address he obtains.
(6) The coroner must take reasonable steps to give any interested person notified under subsection (3), (4) or (5) an opportunity to examine witnesses at the inquest.
(7) In subsections (5) and (6), “interested person” means a person who appears to the coroner to be likely to be concerned with the inquest—
(a) as the finder of the treasure or otherwise involved in the find;
(b) as the occupier, at the time the treasure was found, of the land where it was found, or
(c) as having had an interest in that land at that time or since.

10 Rewards
(1) This section applies if treasure—
(a) has vested in the Crown under section 4; and
(b) is to be transferred to a museum.
(2) The Secretary of State must determine whether a reward is to be paid by the museum before the transfer.
(3) If the Secretary of State determines that a reward is to be paid, he must also determine, in whatever way he thinks fit—
(a) the treasure’s market value;
(b) the amount of the reward;
(c) to whom the reward is to be payable; and
(d) if it is to be payable to more than one person, how much each is to receive.
(4) The total reward must not exceed the treasure’s market value.
(5) The reward may be payable to—
(a) the finder or any other person involved in the find;
(b) the occupier of the land at the time of the find;
(c) any person who had an interest in the land at that time, or has had such an interest at any time since then.
(6) Payment of the reward is not enforceable against a museum or the Secretary of State.
(7) In a determination under this section, the Secretary of State must take into account anything relevant in the code of practice issued under section 11.
(8) This section also applies in relation to treasure which has vested in a franchisee under section 4, if the franchisee makes a request to the Secretary of State that it should.