Legion vs. Phalanx online tournament

[Βελισάριος]

Hear ye, hear ye!

There has been a bit of a discussion recently on the topic of which faction most deserves to have their capital sacked. Then somehow it drifted from the Red Death vs the Yellow Death to "my pilum is bigger than your sarissa" . How it got there is beyond my comprehension but bitter words and threats have been exchanged, culture and military prowess offended, excuses offered and so on.

I propose we settle this the old fashioned way: one on one legionary army vs. phalanx formation in an online tournament.

This will most likely not settle the matter of "The Romans were better than the Greeks" but at least it will give everyone a chance to be a good sport and have a great time wreaking havoc among enemy armies.

My proposal for this tournament is simple: pit (say) 5 Roman generals against 5 Hellenic strategous (from any Hellenic faction), have them engage in one on one battles until one of the two cultures has been completely annihilated from the tournament.
Alternatively, we could have stages: siege, open field, ambush with factions alternatively attacking and defending cities, key positions, etc.

There should, of course, be a jury for this and a board to promote and make sure common sense and good old sportsmanship are making this a fun time for everyone.

So who would be interested? Who among you thinks himself worthy to defend his favourite ancient culture's prowess on the battlefield? Grab your Gladius, your Xiphos, your Scutum and your Aspis and defend your faction's honour!

The Rulebook:

1. Hellenic factions to be represented: Epeiros, Koinon Hellenon, Makedonia, Arche Seleukeia, Ptolemaioi, Pontos.
   
   Baktria will not be allowed as a participant faction.
   
   
2. EB v 1.2 shall be used for this tournament. That is to say clean install, no additional mods, all fixes.
   
   
3. Roman reforms limitations
   In the interest of historical accurateness Roman reformed units shall be limited when fighting Epeiros to Camillan, against Koinon Hellenon, and Makedonia to Polybian and Marian when engaging an army of Ptolemaioi, Arche Seleukeia, and Pontos.
   
   So:
   Camillan vs. Epeiros
   Polybian vs. Koinon Hellenon, Makedonia
   Marian vs. Arche Seleukeia, Pontos, Ptolemaioi
   
   Furthermore, versions of units from earlier reforms than the one the army should be fighting in will not be accepted (i.e. Camillan Triarii in Polybian Armies, Camillan Principes idem, etc.) nor are “earlier” units to be accepted in later, reformed armies, for example Rorarii in Polybian armies, Hastati, Principes, Triarii in Marian. In-game, the unit description will say whether a unit is Camillan, Polybian or Marian.
   Exceptions: Accensi in Polybian, Velites in Marian.
   
   (for a detailed list, see EB website)
   
4. Unit limitation I Unit recruitment shall be limited to those units published on the EB website for each respective faction.
   Check here.
   
   
5. Unit limitation II
   
   • Elephant units are limited to 1 for Epeiros, 2 for Arche Seleukeia and Ptolemaioi (if you honestly think you can afford it).
   • Missile unit number shall be limited to 6 (that includes: Sphendonetai, Toxotai of any kind, Akontistai, Velites and Accensi. Peltastai fall under a different category. Missile cavalry will be count as cavalry.)
   
   
6. Legion and Phalanx unit minimum
   Each army must have at least a number of 6 Legionary (Hastati, Principes, Cohors Reformata) or Phalanx (Phalangitai, Hoplitai) units in its makeup.
   
7. Allied/Mercenary units
   The ratio of faction/mercenary units is 2-1, and this is for all infantry units and 1-1 for cavalry units. (e.g.: 2 Eqvites Romani & 2 Eqvites Extraordinarii; 2 Hetairoi & 2 Mistophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi, et cetera)
   
8. Concerning cavalry
   Maximum cavalry units is 4, of which maximum 2 heavy cavalry. (Cavalry "general" units do no count- i.e. Somatophylakes Strategou/Eqvites Consulari)
   
9. Historical army formation
   (yes, gentlemen, that means levies)
   After careful debating, the jury has decided on the following ratio for Levy-Standard-Elite units respectively: 2-3-1, this is for all units except cavalry.
   Levy: Any unit priced under 1200 mnai or that has “levy” in its unit description (e.g.: Accensi, Rorarii, Akontistai, Illyrian Costal Levies, Hoplitai Haploi, Phalangitai Deuteroi/Pantadapoi/Machimoi, etc.)
   
   Standard units (or the rank-and-file/backbone of the army): Any unit priced between 1200 and 2900 mnai or that does not have the words “levy” or “elite” in its description. (e.g.: Hoplitai, Pezhetairoi, Peltastai, Thureophoroi, Thorakitai, Principes, etc.)
   
   Elite: Any unit priced over 2900 mnai, that is a better version of a standard unit (reforms notwithstanding) or that has the word “elite” in its description. E.g.: Pedites Extraordinarii, Spartiatai/Epilektoi Hoplitai, Argyraspides, Macedonian Reformed Phalanx, Ptolemaic Basilikon Agema, Ptolemaic Klerouchikon Agema, Hypaspistai, Peltastai Makedonikoi/Pheraspides, Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou, Thraikioi Rhompaiaphoroi, Toxotai Kretikoi/Syriakoi, Sphendonetai Rhodioi. ("General" units do nout count as elites for the purpose of this count.)
   
   For Roman armies, this is a little different, which means:
   Camillan/Polybian: 2 Light infantry (Velites, Accensi, Hastati Samnitici, Rorarii) – 2 Hastati – 2 Principes – 1 Triarii -1 Pedites Extraordinarii/Other elite unit.
   
   Marian: 1 Antesignani – 1 Cohors Evocata – 2 Cohors Reformata (with only one Prima Cohors Reformata per army.)
   
10. Unit number limitations
    None whatsoever. Go crazy with your 20-stack!
    
    
11. Funds available40.000 Mnai.
    
    
12. Battle replays
    The replay file should be universally available after the battle, so everyone could get a taste of the action. It will be up to the jury to then make up an AAR of sorts with screenies and comments added for flavour.
    
    
13. No Upgrades At least no more than 1 bronze chevron.
    
    
14. Match-up
    Point system, 2 match-ups per participant.
    Victory points awarded for victory (1 pt each). At the end the Imperator and Strategos with the most points will fight the final battle to decide the winner.
    
    In the event of a tie, there will be an additional knock-out round to decide the two contestants for the final round.

Mini-rules:

• A. Tie-breaker tier: in the event of an unresolved battle (draw), and if the two parties have not settled on a re-match, the jury will decide on the winner and the following will be taken into consideration.
• No charging through your own lines.
• If you have elephants, notify your opponent before the battle.
• A-historical or ridiculous phalanx manoeuvres, such as charging towards enemy then lowering sarissas just before impact, 180-degree turns while engaged in combat.
  
  B. Disqualification Tier. You break 'em, you bought the farm.
• “Phalanx Penetration” exploit (ordering unit to charge behind phalanx unit to bypass spears).
• Under no circumstances can you deploy your troops at the end of the field against the "red line" that contours the battlefield so that your flanks are protected by the imaginary red line.
• If an army is surrounded (particularly a phalanx box) the one encircled must push through in a reasonable amount of time or otherwise forfeit.
  The surrounding army must completely encircle its opponent (i.e. all soldiers must be shoulder to shoulder forming a circle -or polygon, if you will- around the enemy army).
• If an army is left with only cavalry units then it should engage the enemy in a reasonable amount of time or otherwise forfeit.
  
  
  And Additional prizes will be awarded for:
  1. Best Cavalry Commander,
  2. Best Ambush,
  3. Best Phalanx Formation (as in, combination of units for maximum efficiency),
  4. Best Legionary Formation,
  5. The special “Herodotus” Prize for most historically accurate army formation,
  6. The special “Nike-Victoria” award for the undefeated generals of the first stage,
  7. The “Butcher” award for most kills with least casualties,
  8. The “Menander” award for funniest moment.

Extensive Multiplayer Guide (by Tolg):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This guide is written so that anyone can understand it. Please just ignore the obvious bits.


I. Guide to play EB over the Internet using RTW online game feature

1. Make sure that you have a clean install of:
   • RTW + Patch 1.3 + Patch 1.5
   • EB 1.1
   • EB 1.2
   • The EB 1.2 Fixes
   
   (Installed in this order)
2. Check if your firewall allows RTW to access the Internet.
3. Start EB using the multiplayer .exe
4. Click "Multiplayer"
5. Click "Online Battles"
6. If it asks you to enter your CD key, click "Change CD key" and enter the key of your copy of RTW
7. Afterwards click "Online battles" again.
8. When it asks you to enter your name do so (preferably the name you use on the forums so your opponent can recognize you)
9. You should now be in the Lobby and your screen should look somewhat like this:
   Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

   
   In order to play an online battle, one player has to "host" a game and the other one has to "join" it.
10. a) If you're the one joining just check all the three servers (Chat Lobby, Competitive and Friendly) in the box at the bottom right for a yellow game name, if there are multiple ones check the host's name by placing your cursor on top of the game's entry in the list.
    b) If you're the one hosting, click the icon with the two screens. Your screen will look like this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    
    . Enter a name for your game, select the max. number of players and the unit scale and then press "Host Custom Battle". (You don't need a password) Afterwards do what you would do if you were setting up a sp custom battle.
11. After both players have joined select your factions, press the arrow in the corner at the bottom right, set up your armies press the arrow again and FIGHT!
12. Don't forget to save the replay once you're done!

II. Guide to play EB over the Internet using Hamachi

1. See step 1) and 2) of the previous guide.
2. Download Hamachi
3. Install Hamachi and read it's tutorial. It only tales ~2 minutes but helps a lot.
4. a) Create a Hamachi network (press the triangul button at the bottom left of the Hamachi window, select create network, enter the name and a password and hit OK)
   b) Join the network that was created by your opponent. (The triangular button again, join network and enter name and pw of the network)
5. Now it gets tricky:
6. Cut your main internet connection.
7. Start EB using the mp .exe and click "Multiplayer" and "Lan Battle"
8. Minimize your game (Alt + Tab or Alt + Esc)
9. Reenable your Internet connection
10. return to the game and do as described in the previous guide (Step 8).
11. [B]Don't forget to save the replay once you're done!

Historical army make-up guides for participants:
(these are guidelines and not to be taken as actual rules)

Maion's Makedonia, Epeiros and Koinon Hellenon:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

here are some suggestions I have cooked up for the army composition and limitation of the armies of the Hellenes.

Epeiros - 1 type of army (Reformed Pyrrhic)

Infantry: A mixture of phalanx with flexible infantry and phalanx as a solid line. This means basically the main line should be phalanx-infantry-phalanx-infantry etc. Illyrians can and should be used by any extent (Illyrioi Thorakitai/Thureophoroi, Illyrioi Parktioi) as flankers, as well as traditional Thureophoroi/Thorakitai, Peltastai and Hoplitai (Haploi and normal). As for mercenaries, use of Pezoi Brettioi and Samnitai is acceptable, as historically they helped Pyrrhos in his campaigns.

Cavalry: Heavy cavalry about 4 units max. Campanians excluded. 1 unit of Elephantes Indikoi maximum.

Ranged: 4 units of missile troops (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai) maximum.

Makedonia - 2 types of armies (Late Alexandrian, Reformed)

Late Alexandrian Army

Infantry: A solid line of phalanx troops (about 8) of mixed quality (Deuteroi, Pezhetairoi, Misthophoroi Pezhetairoi, Argyraspides). Thureophoroi, Agrianikoi Pelekophoroi, Peltastai (including Thraikioi), Hoplitai (Haploi and normal) for flankers.

Cavalry: 4 units max. More accurate, it should be even less, about 2-3. This includes the Strategos.

Ranged: 4 units of missile troops (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai) maximum.

Reformed Army

Same as previous, but instead of Pezhetairoi you have the Hysteroi guys. And quite many of them as well (about 4 out of 8). Also, use more mercenaries than normally, with Thraikioi and Illyrioi being the norm.

Koinon Hellenon - 2 types of armies (Iphikratean, Reformed 'Successor')

Iphikratean

Infantry: Iphikratides or hoplites as a 4-6 unit solid main line, as well as 2 elite hoplites (including Strategos). Normal hoplites can be used as flankers as well as Thorakitai/Thureophoroi/Peltastai (and Thraikioi).

Cavalry: About 2-3 units (Hippeis, Hippakontistai). No Thessalikoi.

Ranged: 4 Toxotai/Sphendonetai (including Kretikoi/Rhodioi Sphendonetai and excluding Akontistai).

Reformed 'Successor' Army

Koinon Phalangitai and Misthophoroi Pezhetairoi (2 maximum) as a main line, as well as the same flankers as the Iphikratean one. Hoplites and Iphs can be included. 2 elites as well (Strategos included). Xystophoroi can be used as well, but 1 unit maximum. 2-3 units of cavalry all in all.

IrishHitman's "stricter" Late Alexandrian army:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I agree with this for the most part, although I'd impose stricter controls on the late Alexandrian army, like this:

Late Alexandrian:
2 Argyraspides, 2 Pezhetairoi, 3 levy.
1 Hypaspist unit, 1 Thracian peltasts and 1 Agrianian unit min.
I may include 1 Illyrian peltast unit as well, if they exist in EB.
I guess a regular peltast unit could fill the unit gap on that one.

Min 1 - Max 2 Companions, Min 1 - Max 2 Thessalians.

Min 1 Cretan archers.

The last four slots should be filled with League of Corinth (Southern Greek) troops, of various stripe.
Hoplites mostly, though I'd also place some medium cavalry in there for accuracy as I'll explain*.

If my reading of JR Hamilton's introduction to Arrian's Campaigns of Alexander is correct, then that should present the most realistic Alexandrian army.

Though the cavalry is still disproportionately large if the max is used... By a factor of two.
Hamilton states that when Alexander crossed the Hellespont, he had 30-43 thousand infantry (including ranged) and 4-5 thousand cavalry. The proportion would have stayed the same until Alexander dismissed his Thessalians in Media, and Persian melee/horse archer battalions were formed.

The proportion between Companian and Thessalian cavalry is stated as exactly equal at 1,800 each, with the League cavalry making up the rest*.

Signatures for contestants:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Imperatores:
"Slightly Hellenic"


Strategoi:
"Hellenic Warmachine" (Koinon Hellenon)
[/img]

"Athena would be proud" (Koinon Hellenon)
[/img]

"Form up!" (Epeiros)


"Ippeus (The Horseman)" (Makedonia)

[duncan.gill]

Isn't there going to be problems given that whatever terrain that you choose for the map will advantage one army over the other? Also if the army is just going to be Phalanx vs just Legions then wouldn't the legions win because the Phalanx wouldn't be able to access the more mobile troops to protect the flanks?

[Tolg]

Also if the army is just going to be Phalanx vs just Legions then wouldn't the legions win because the Phalanx wouldn't be able to access the more mobile troops to protect the flanks?

He didn't say that there may only be phalangites or only legionaries. Each general should be free to use whatever he wants, as long as the core of the army are legionaries/a phalanx. And of course using too many non-factional troops would beat the purpose as well.

Isn't there going to be problems given that whatever terrain that you choose for the map will advantage one army over the other?

What about rematches with the position reversed? (I assume they are decided depending on who's the attacker)

I like the idea though I've always been a cavalry commander and hence won't participate myself.

[Maion Maroneios]

This is a very interesting idea, when I get my new laptop I may consider installing a clean version of EB 1.2 and fire Multiplayer. I'll fight as Makedonia.

Maion

P.S.: Btw, a sarissa is bigger that a pilum, you know

[Sarkiss]

interesting idea... the only thing it shouldnt be presented as Romani vs KH (that would be legionaries vs hoplitai), but Romani vs Macedon

[Maion Maroneios]

interesting idea... the only thing it shouldnt be presented as Romani vs KH (that would be legionaries vs hoplitai), but Romani vs Macedon

I second that. So it will be legionaries vs phalangites. Oh, I'm so eager to kick some Romaioi butt

Maion

[Βελισάριος]

To address the issues at hand:

1. Of course it won't be just legion vs. only phalanx units. The phalanx would get slaughtered... unless the Roman general is a complete moron or the Greek a "divine tactician".
And we'll have a restricted roster... i.e. no mercenary units unless they're of the same culture as your faction (i.e.: no elephants for the Romans, no Samnite mercs for the Greeks, etc.)

2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.

And yes, I know a sarissa is bigger than a pilum. That was the intended pun.

Oh, and is there anyway we can get an easily unistallable patch/minimod to rearrange that multiplayer unit roster because it's giving me the willies.

[rootje]

Sounds like a wonderfull idea, also should be a hell of a lot of fun to try and use the actual tactics used back in the day[as much as that's possible in the RTW engine].

I'd like to get some more info on what's specificly neccesary to play online etc, iff it's do-able i'd like to represent the true reds . Hopefully this tourny will take some time to set up so I can just get enough time to reach marian reforms in my grand roman campaign and get used to them after almost 100 years of the old checkerboard <3

[Tolg]

2. It was never the issue whether it be legion vs hoplitai or phalangitai phalanx... just phalanx. I for one think each Greek culture should be represented. Alternatively, in the interest of fairness we could have a poll to determine which Hellenic culture should represent the lot.

I think Macedonia should represent the phalangitai, they are the most traditional faction in terms of Alexandros Megas-like warfare, Epeiros was considered to be a barbarian faction, the seleucids use too many asian units, the ptolemaioi too many egyptian ones, Bactria has HAs and lacks elite phalanx, and Pontos doesn't even use normal hetaroi bodyguards (of course Bactria doesn't either).

Edit: The Hoplitai were already outdated by 272BC and they don't even fight as phalanx due to engine limitations. (Or due to too many difficulties with the animations.)

[machinor]

Nice idea. If this is going to happen, please make a video of the battles and put the best of them on youtube. So everyone can enjoy.

[Βελισάριος]

I have every intention of making this tournament happen. There are a few issues that need be sorted out in advance, of course, princely at this point: unit roster and Hellenic representation. So Rootje and all, you'll have enough time to get used to any tactics you want (oh, and... the checkerboard never gets old!).

Firstly Those interested in being members of the jury, please PM me so we can confer on a few topics.

Second I'd like to have an artwork team to design prizes/trophies/custom signatures for the participant and winners. I think that would add some flair to the whole thing.

Third and very important Regarding the issue of which faction to represent the Greeks: Epeiros were, indeed, considered barbarians and they have a score of barbarian units to show for that. Seleukids, Ptolemaioi, Pontos and Baktria have too many Asian/Egyptian units despite being technically Hellenic cultures.

That leaves Makedonia and Koinon Hellenoi. Admittedly, Alexandros (everyone's favourite butcher) was a divine tactician and Phillip's Phalangitai were the creme de la creme of Greek infantrymen, I don't think the Hoplitai were obsolete, they did adapt and Spartan Hoplites were this widely regarded as the best soldiers in the world (be it boastfully or otherwise). Admittedly, if you pit Phalangitai against Hoplitai in one on one head-on combat, I'd have my money on the Makedonian phalanx, but remember the issue here is mobility. Now which of the two do you think is more mobile?

Oh, and I will ask participants to save and send the recorded battles for our viewers to enjoy. After-Action Reports and commentaries will be issued by the jury at the end of a battle.

[antisocialmunky]

I think that any faction with a phalanx tradition that the Romans actually fought should be eligible as long as most of the infantry core is phalangites.

That means Epeiros, Pontus, Makedonia, KH, AS, Ptolomies, and Pontus.

Also, you need to have a list of eligible maps unless you just want to play on Irish Marshland which of course gives a big advantage to the phalanx due to flat nothingness.

[Gabeed]

*Bursts through tent flap heroically, the sun shining in*

Ptolemaic strategos, volunteering.





(I could be any of the other Diodochi, if need be)

[IrishHitman]

Makedonia signed up, provided the time is convenient.

DAMN ROMANS, STEALING GREEK SUPREMACY.

[Dutchhoplite]

This sounds very interesting

[Phalanx300]

It does indeed, even though we already know who is the superior one, the Hellenes ofcourse . But we might as well give these Romani barbarians a fair chance to show them the light.


Anyways, should there be a rule which makes people use Historical correct tactics and armies?


And maybe some minirules like: No charging cavalry through your own line, not changing from enemy with Phalangites if engaged?



I'm not sure if I join this, if I would I would most certainly join as the Koinen Hellenon. The Greek City States are after all the most supreme force ever to have existed. Sparta stands unrivaled troughout the world!

[Gabeed]

Regarding army rules, I would hope merely putting a limit on elephant, horse, and archer units would be sufficient, along with a required amount of legions/phalangitai. Some creativity needs to be allowed, after all.

[Dutchhoplite]

With some creativity you even can create "early", "middle and "late" Phalanx armies.

[desert]

I propose that all participants in the competition be required to record their games and upload them to youtube!

[Ibrahim]

I propose that all participants in the competition be required to record their games and upload them to youtube!

here here!!

I'll try to get on the online battle-I've yet to see if comcast blocks me or not. I've Pmed Burebista.

so, what day? I prefer saturday.

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

In order to give as much as possible the most needed accurancy we could limit the units eligible depending on the factions that will fight. For intance, if Makedonia will face the romans, the roman general would not be able to use marian legions because at that time the makedonia state was already part of the roman empire.

Just an idea.

[Ibrahim]

In order to give as much as possible the most needed accurancy we could limit the units eligible depending on the factions that will fight. For intance, if Makedonia will face the romans, the roman general would not be able to use marian legions because at that time the makedonia state was already part of the roman empire.

Just an idea.

that's not a bad idea. not bad at all. in fact, perfect.

[Βελισάριος]

Thank you all for your support and interest!

I'm pleased to let you know we already have (half) a jury, so things are well under way.
What we would really, really need at this moment are some more players to represent the Romans. So if you know any Rome fanatics who'd like to defend Roman arms... do let them know, please.

Regarding the issue of limitations: I like the idea of no Marian units when fighting Makedonia, though due to the EB system that may be both unnecessary and unfair.

So far, the only "limitations" I can think of would be on non-factional mercenary units and, of course... the fact that Romans msut have legionnary units and the Hellenes, the phalanx. Otherwise, it is completely at the general's discretion as to how he organises his army. A detailed list of faction rosters will be issued following a debate among jury members with your opinions, of course.

Any other suggestions you may have, feel free to post them here or PM myself. Any info and feedback are more than welcome!

Once again, thank you all. And... GET ME SOME ROMANS!
Peace

[antisocialmunky]

... I wouldn't mind getting the replay files either. That's probably better than Youtube's blurryness.

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

I'd volunteer for the Romani!

[Ibrahim]

I'd volunteer for the Romani!

well then: PM Burebista (you have to)

[We shall fwee...Wodewick]

Aye Aye Captain!

[Βελισάριος]

Well, you don't have to PM me... I keep a close eye on this thread.
Anyway, yes I'm glad to have another Roman general.

So let's see, then... so far, we have in the Red corner, representing zee Romans:
Rootje
The guy with a Monty Python name, We shall fwee...Wodewick

And in the orange-black-yellow-silver-etc. corner, representing the Greeks:
Gabeed [as the Yellow Death]
IrishHitman [As the Bl... no, wait, that name's taken]
Maion Maroneios [as Makedonia, when he gets his laptop]

Phalanx300 ? Tolg? (you know, Makedonia have some nice cavarly if that's your cup of tea and so do the Romans)

Who else would be interested? I'd like at least 4 on each side.

[Olaf Blackeyes]

4 on each side?
Do the signers have enough hardware so that they dont lag out??

[Tolg]

You can count me in as a substitute in case you don't find enough participants, though my abilities as an infantry commander are probably below average, meaning the the other side would have an advantage.

I could play either with the Romans or with a Greek faction. (Of course I'd like to use Hellenic Cataphracts, but they might be a bit unfair. lol)


BTW, what is the jury supposed to do?