STW/MTW Vets: Now that you've played the demo, any hope?

[PanzerJaeger]

This is primarily directed towards the guys who played STW/MTW and enjoyed that "chess" like style of play...

Puzz3D has explained in great detail what went wrong with RTW/MTW2 many times on this board so I won't go into it in detail. Needless to say, my biggest problem with those two games, among many, was that engagements between individual units ended too quickly to do much maneuvering. In the old games you could send units even of vastly different skill against each other, and while the outcome was certain, the fight would last long enough to go and do something on the other side of the map that might give you an advantage. In that environment of slower fighting and slower kill rates, there was far more room for strategy instead of hectic clicking and units breaking almost as soon as they hit - which I noticed quite a bit in the newer games.

Anyway, I was wondering if you thought there was any hope that MP could again become what it once was.

I noticed some potential good things - strong infantry with longer engagement times and more appropriate cav strengths & weaknesses.

I also noticed some issues that could really mess up the mp experience such as insta-rout grenadiers and a particularly lucky cannon shot that too out both of my artillery pieces en masse.

And what of the naval aspect? I've only played the engagement 3 times and I cannot really tell yet if there is room for valid strategy or if its just about throwing your ships at each other and watching the pretty graphics.

[tibilicus]

. In that environment of slower fighting and slower kill rates, there was far more room for strategy instead of hectic clicking and units breaking almost as soon as they hit - which I noticed quite a bit in the newer games.

Welcome to the modern age of strategy gaming. Whilst I never played STW and only played MTW offline I can tell you from the demo that the "chess bored" style game play doesn't appear to be there.
The ability to move fast and react fast around the field is still key from what I picked up from the demo and micro managing, particularly in naval battles seems very prominent. .

That's my opinion though, others may agree/disagree..

[Monk]

The ability to move fast and react fast around the field is still key from what I picked up from the demo and micro managing, particularly in naval battles seems very prominent. .

That's my opinion though, others may agree/disagree..

I agree. Especially with the Naval battle. It felt (to me at least) very much a micro-manage fest rather than a tactical simulation. Which wasn't really a bad thing since I actually found it fun. The only thing that concerns me there is how much it will break down when we see fleets of 20 ships fighting, rather than of 6.

I also noticed some issues that could really mess up the mp experience such as insta-rout grenadiers and a particularly lucky cannon shot that too out both of my artillery pieces en masse.

Cannons are absurdly accurate right now, I noticed my own artillery was consistently sniped in every battle i fought. It gets old fast.

[Kalle]

Judging only from the demo of course but from what i saw there it is the best totalwar landbattle since mtw/vi.

Control, camera and speed of units feels so much better then rtw and mtwii. Overview is better aswell i think.

When I marched my inf up the enemy moved his troops as good as possible into a solid line and i did the same (and it seem it will be essential to have a line exactly as it was) taking shots at eachother. Thanks to the early stage of the battle I had a few spare units, moved them up on one flank and put the enemies flank under fire both from front and side, it took higher casulties, morale collapsed and so on. Im not saying it was a great military triumph for me but it shows manouver, flank and so on is important and the ai new this but just couldnt help it in this case. If ai had another regiment to throw in he would have had time to save his flank. Good I think.

On a side note i wanna add Speed and micromanagement was essential and vital in mtw and the shogun mod for mtw/vi (original shogun i didnt play) aswell. Control being so much better in those games helped a lot in making the game last longer.

If the rock, scissor, stone thing is there in ETW is hard to say though. I cant say for sure from only the demo.

I dont wanna say that other people should by the game but im buying it thats for sure.

Only hope now that the "infrastructure" (away with lag, connectionissues, bad ingame chat and so on) of mp will be good!

Kalle

[CBR]

I'll quote myself from the demo impression thread:

MTW run speed for normal/fast inf - ETW run speed for grenadier/line/light inf*
166/200 meters/minute - 180/200/225 meters/minute

MTW cav run speed for normal/light - ETW run speed for General and horse artillery/dragoons and hussars
333/400 meters minute - 450/600 meters/minute


Reaction time based on missile range versus run speed: In other words: how long it takes for a unit to run from max missile range into melee.

MTW (100 meter range)
Inf 36/30 seconds
Cav 18/15 seconds

ETW (70 meters - I use that as I assume most line inf will have 70 and only light inf will have 80)
Inf 23/21/19 seconds
Cav 9+/7 seconds

Of course there are rifle units that will increase the time by around 70%


*based on demo map so slight elevations can change the result a bit but there should be 3 classes of infantry speed.

Checked my M2TW test results and found that cavalry in ETW seems to have same speed. Infantry has had a reduction of about 10% and of course the slowest infantry type (heavy foot knights etc) in M2TW is not there in ETW

So what I worry about is how fast units can close in from max infantry missile range. Judging from the videos it seems light infantry is quickly eaten by cavalry and that heavy cavalry (or at least the best of them) apparently can be a threat to line infantry too.

I noticed the accuracy of my artillery was very good. But it was at a relatively short range and have not tried at max range. Did not check their fire rate.


CBR

[RTKBarrett]

This is primarily directed towards the guys who played STW/MTW and enjoyed that "chess" like style of play...

Puzz3D has explained in great detail what went wrong with RTW/MTW2 many times on this board so I won't go into it in detail. Needless to say, my biggest problem with those two games, among many, was that engagements between individual units ended too quickly to do much maneuvering. In the old games you could send units even of vastly different skill against each other, and while the outcome was certain, the fight would last long enough to go and do something on the other side of the map that might give you an advantage. In that environment of slower fighting and slower kill rates, there was far more room for strategy instead of hectic clicking and units breaking almost as soon as they hit - which I noticed quite a bit in the newer games.

Anyway, I was wondering if you thought there was any hope that MP could again become what it once was.

I noticed some potential good things - strong infantry with longer engagement times and more appropriate cav strengths & weaknesses.

I also noticed some issues that could really mess up the mp experience such as insta-rout grenadiers and a particularly lucky cannon shot that too out both of my artillery pieces en masse.

And what of the naval aspect? I've only played the engagement 3 times and I cannot really tell yet if there is room for valid strategy or if its just about throwing your ships at each other and watching the pretty graphics.

Silly question as its on steam, it will be the biggest total war game ever by a massive margin mp wise...

Btw chess and rock,paper,scissors might suit u more than empires

[t1master]

i don't consider myself a vet, played a few games in my time, but can't tell you how fast my units ran, or their accuracy algorithm in the mud and rain...

hope yes. the game reminds me of what the lordz did to mtw several years ago with the napoleon mod. it appears on first go to be a good gun oriented rts, much along the same lines as that mod. i'd like to be able to add more parameters than what we've got in the demo, and of course face an intelligent opponent.

haven't played the naval battle, but don't really have an inkling to...

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I started playing VI online on a active basis almost 5 years ago next month (Early March 2004).


From what I remember from my old games then and ETW demo, I have hope. The Naval Battles though worry me. I don't think it's real... I don't know how to put it. I don't think they designed it well for Naval Battles.


Land battles though, Excellet! The only problem I got with it was what Panzaer said about the cannons. Similar thing happened to me also.


But I think It has hope and potenial. As good as STW/MTW? Proably not, but will it be up in there with them though, I like to think so!

[RTKBarrett]

I started playing VI online on a active basis almost 5 years ago next month (Early March 2004).


From what I remember from my old games then and ETW demo, I have hope. The Naval Battles though worry me. I don't think it's real... I don't know how to put it. I don't think they designed it well for Naval Battles.


Land battles though, Excellet! The only problem I got with it was what Panzaer said about the cannons. Similar thing happened to me also.


But I think It has hope and potenial. As good as STW/MTW? Proably not, but will it be up in there with them though, I like to think so!

I thought u played shogun?

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I logged on it once, that was all. I was alround briefly in 2000/2001, I rember MagyarKhan's Cham person, but that was it.


I played Samurai Warlords Mod for VI also, maybe you got mistaken with that?

[RTKBarrett]

No because u always used to talk about shogun as if u were there since it began... nvm ;)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Silly question as its on steam, it will be the biggest total war game ever by a massive margin mp wise...

Btw chess and rock,paper,scissors might suit u more than empires

We're talking about quality here, not quantity. Or rather, is the pace of the battle similar to MTW 1 & Shogun, where you could fight a battle at a deliberate pace and not have to frantically click and react almost like a FPS?

As to PJ's question; I don't know. It's better than RTW for sure, but I found myself having to move quickly. I think it could be slowed down and benefit.

We really should just see what values the NTW1 mod had and copy them over.

CR

[pevergreen]

There are 4v4 maps, but they are purely available for multiplayer.

OH PHEW.

[Sir Beane]

OH PHEW.

If there are 4 vs. 4 maps then why on earth are they not included in Singleplayer as well? I really don't understand the reasoning behind that decision.

[pevergreen]

Ah, modding will fix that.

It doesnt make sense, but hey.

[tibilicus]

If there are 4 vs. 4 maps then why on earth are they not included in Singleplayer as well? I really don't understand the reasoning behind that decision.

Cos MP players are mint and we deserve more maps than SP people who fail to see the light and come and play MP with us.

In all seriousness though probably just bad initiative by CA.

[CBR]

Could be because PC's cant handle 7 AI armies. Having 140 AI controlled units seemed to stress PC's in RTW too and with "better" AI in ETW it might just be too much.


CBR

[tibilicus]

Could be because PC's cant handle 7 AI armies. Having 140 AI controlled units seemed to stress PC's in RTW too and with "better" AI in ETW it might just be too much.


CBR

That makes sense. For some odd reason this engine seems very demanding and in the single player forums there's getting a lot of people mentioning the long load times.

I guess it's a price you pay for a bigger and better game engine though.

[Jack Lusted]

Could be because PC's cant handle 7 AI armies. Having 140 AI controlled units seemed to stress PC's in RTW too and with "better" AI in ETW it might just be too much.


CBR

Bingo, that is the reason 4v4 maps are MP only and are meant to be played by 8 humans.

[tibilicus]

Bingo, that is the reason 4v4 maps are MP only and are meant to be played by 8 humans.

Will there also be a drop in performance for MP then if the game still has to render all the units on the screen even though you're not the one controlling them or will it be optimized in some way so that it wont be an issue?

[Jack Lusted]

Will there also be a drop in performance for MP then if the game still has to render all the units on the screen even though you're not the one controlling them or will it be optimized in some way so that it wont be an issue?

You'll get better perofrmance than if it was 1 human and 7 AIs as there are no AI calculations going on in an all human game.

[tibilicus]

You'll get better perofrmance than if it was 1 human and 7 AIs as there are no AI calculations going on in an all human game.

Ah, I get what your saying. Therefore any drop in performance will be down to how good peoples PC's can handle the game and not the way in which the game engine works.

Thanks for the speedy reply.

[Jack Lusted]

Ah, I get what your saying. Therefore any drop in performance will be down to how good peoples PC's can handle the game and not the way in which the game engine works.

Thanks for the speedy reply.

Yes exactly.

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

However, I do like to know Jack, how extacly is the ranking system set up? Is it going to be a STW Ranking system or a RTW-GS Style Ladder system thingy?

[LittleGrizzly]

Early reaction seems slightly positive... there is hope!

I quite enjoyed my musket battles back in shogun and mi, the rest of my units hardly counted i was determined to win that gun battle.. back before i could use units like Cavarly archers (not that i was like magyarkhan with them) and the like...

I will come back to the topic when early multiplayer gets going.... if it half as good as shogun mp ill be there in a flash!

[tgi01]

Its pretty simple actually, get all of your all friends add them to your steam friends list
get a headset to be able to agree on rules in advance then play ...

Will the game have inbalances - thats for sure ( I ve noticed the far to accurate cannons that some1 was mentioning myself ) , and so on .. but the main thing is that it will be much easier to communicate
agree upon rules and play with any1 you want to play with ...

I ve got the game on pre-order so will be playing it from day 1 ....

So get steam and get used to the interface asap ...

TGI

[donbatti]

looking good atleast
going to buy it and hope for the good ol days.. maybe to much to ask heh

oh and hi to all "old" friends :D

[miniwally]

you can voice chat on steam etw?

[Mars]

This is primarily directed towards the guys who played STW/MTW and enjoyed that "chess" like style of play...

Puzz3D has explained in great detail what went wrong with RTW/MTW2 many times on this board so I won't go into it in detail. Needless to say, my biggest problem with those two games, among many, was that engagements between individual units ended too quickly to do much maneuvering. In the old games you could send units even of vastly different skill against each other, and while the outcome was certain, the fight would last long enough to go and do something on the other side of the map that might give you an advantage. In that environment of slower fighting and slower kill rates, there was far more room for strategy instead of hectic clicking and units breaking almost as soon as they hit - which I noticed quite a bit in the newer games.

Anyway, I was wondering if you thought there was any hope that MP could again become what it once was.

I noticed some potential good things - strong infantry with longer engagement times and more appropriate cav strengths & weaknesses.

I also noticed some issues that could really mess up the mp experience such as insta-rout grenadiers and a particularly lucky cannon shot that too out both of my artillery pieces en masse.

And what of the naval aspect? I've only played the engagement 3 times and I cannot really tell yet if there is room for valid strategy or if its just about throwing your ships at each other and watching the pretty graphics.

Hey Panza ;)


from what i saw and could read... i doubt that this is even close to STW/MTW. Its another hybrid of "click-faster-win-faster" and "ensure-to-not-think-much" game.

Hard to say, it looks nice, yes, grafics are pretty good.
Tactical gameplay is average (note, i dont say crap), i once again will playtest it, but once again, i doubt its a game worth to spent much time on (and yes, im talking about MP).


I see insane speed, as CBR already posted... from my pov its actual pretty hard to really outmaneuver someone, i see frontal clashing and hardly any good moves. U simply have no time to have 3-4 hotspots in a fight and controlling each of it.

STW/MTW u could "block" sides and certain spots, gaining time, and push on other spots...this timemovement to overwight is almost impossible.


Koc

[UglyandHasty]

I prefer to wait and see, i wont judge the game based on the demo. Graphics look good, but its not a factor for a good mp game(in my book). I guess i'll rout soon enough...