light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

[Laza]

i'd like to suggest this simple solution:

1. keep light_spear
2. remove the +4 attack that spear units currently have
3. add the spear_bonus_4 attribute (this applies only vs cav)
4. leave all lethality values as they are

What do u mean with "spear_bonus_4"? I thougt there are only the attributes pike, spear and light spear. oO

[Ludens]

I understand the concern with lowering the attack for hoplites, I was under the impression that Classical Hoplites were on the decline through the EB period so it could have been historically feasible to have them slightly less effective, I've been playing KH and Seleukids most recently and the units still earn significant experience points.

I see where you are coming from, but that is not how units are statted in EB. Unit stats are based on their equipment and training, in as far as can be determined. If you are going to include modifiers based on which units ended up popular or discarded, you throw the entire system of. I truly doubt that hoplite training decrease during EB's time-frame. Not when they suddenly found themselves having to compete with these new-fangled phalangites and legionaries.

Still, in EB they are surprisingly strong for their price/MIC level.

Of course! But then, how often enemy infantry IN EB runs away BEFORE cavalry charge hits them? Not very often, eh? Such is the engine of RTW. With current state of affairs, it means, that you can stop enemy hetairoi with most feeble pantodapoi, beacause they will not run away in fear of being trampled. And in melee they have a good chance to prevail, due to spear bonuses combined with innate high attack value. The latter would be ok, if the former actually took place. Hell, in RL any stationary cavalry is as good as dead if mobbed by infantry, spears or not.

But in EB infantry won`t run before the charge and cavalry will fight it stationary. I`m just trying to do something about it :)

I am not sure if I understand your solution. The problem is morale, not attack factor. Hetairoi are difficult enough to kill even with quality spear troops. Yes, light infantry is too strong against cavalry, but the same argument could be made for peltast in open formation. Lowering morale is not an option, and altering the combat stats of either light infantry or cavalry will affect combat performance with other units as well.

[Watchman]

i'd like to suggest this simple solution:

1. keep light_spear
2. remove the +4 attack that spear units currently have
3. add the spear_bonus_4 attribute (this applies only vs cav)
4. leave all lethality values as they are

That'd still screw the spearmen against other infantry, though. Which makes no sense when considering how popular primary weapons spears were with warriors who primarily fought other infantry (hoplites, the proto-Germanics...).

You'd arguably then be better off just taking "light_spear" entirely out and giving the relevant units a mount_effect bonus.

I understand the concern with lowering the attack for hoplites, I was under the impression that Classical Hoplites were on the decline through the EB period so it could have been historically feasible to have them slightly less effective, I've been playing KH and Seleukids most recently and the units still earn significant experience points.

Eh. Recall that the hoplite tactics and fighting methods were, at the core, very simple - as befited their longtime primary users, the part-time "Sunday soldier" citizen-militia of the Greek city-states, who could devote only so much time and effort into practice.
For that, they were also pretty effective.
The around only thing that could "decline" about them would be not having much meaningful training *at all*, as is the case of the Hoplitai Haploi and the like - but the Hoplitai unit, as well as its mercenary version, represent reasonably competent troops, be they now citizen militia or professionals who make their living selling their spears.

Also, even if we accepted the argument in the individual case of the hoplites on those grounds, that'd help us very little with all the other spear-carrying infantry, such as "barbarian" line spearmen or the Thureophoroi-type "Hellenistic legionaries" who weren't in anything like decay in the period. Or those sword-and-spear elite troops like Hypaspistai, whose training by default is topnotch.

[Laza]

Why are spear units screwed with the same "normal" attack values as sword and axe units? Increase the def value by 4 to counter the negative effects of "light_spear" and everything is fine. oO I don't know why ur arguing against these changes, watchman.

[Drewski]

i'd like to suggest this simple solution:

1. keep light_spear
2. remove the +4 attack that spear units currently have
3. add the spear_bonus_4 attribute (this applies only vs cav)
4. leave all lethality values as they are

Sounds a great idea, apart from why the cavalry bonus?

That'd still screw the spearmen against other infantry, though......

No, it wouldn't. They are screwed up WITH the artificial +4 attack that was left in to compensate for something that no longer needs compensation.

Light_Spear gives -4 defence NOT attack (for the last time, sick and tired of stating this), By adding 4 to attack in EB 1.2, all spear units kill much faster than was originally intended. By reducing all spear/phalanx units by 4 attack, restores the balance, it doesn't negate it. All light_spear units already have an inherent +8 defence vs cavalry, Infantry units don't. Any old spear unit will make mincemeat of cavalry pretty quickly as it is. The better ones hardly even blink.

Here's a paste from an earlier post of mine in this thread, re a Hoplitai:-

Thats a basic 14 attack against anything and 23 Def against other "Spear", 19 Def vs Inf and 31 Def vs Cavalry, and only 1367mnai to recruit, and 342 upkeep. Compare that to any Sword or Axe, and you need an Elite to get anywhere near 14 attack, with twice the upkeep and recruitment cost. So take away the +4 attack vs everything, and you have what is a well balanced low/medium cost allround unit. Good Def, and reasonable attack.

I have play tested this simple change for over (at a quick estimate) 250+ hrs now. It works.

EDIT: As Laza points out, the only question is whether or not to give light_spear some extra defence. But then they become too strong vs Cavalry to my mind...and the thought of giving yet more defence to phalanx units is too horrible to contemplate..

[Watchman]

For one thing, that's not the remedy that has been proposed here. For another, based on the practical tests I did with the two spear attributes, I'm not very convinced "light_spear" actually penalises defense against infantry - as mentioned, the test units with "spear" both killed enemies and died themselves at a clearly faster rate. Granted this could also be a side effect of the absurd "push" ability the attribute gives, but that doesn't alter the result.

On another note, *I* don't recall finding spearmen with the bonus overpowered. Generally the results of spear-vs-nonspear have been about exactly what I'd expect.

[Watchman]

The phalanxes, for the record, use a different scale for their pike values than other units.

[PraetorFigus]

Point taken with the hoplites. I'm glad we are keeping this discussion civil. (No pun or sarcasm intended)

At this point I won't argue for -4 attack, but the testing has shown me some interesting stuff I didn't really notice before.

the AI will charge cavalry into infantry and then disengage and recharge to use the charge bonus, with the vanilla stats they get chewed up and subsequent charges are thus depleted and less effective even the eastern heavy cavalry, so they'd be routing often unless they're a FM with lots of chevrons.

So I think something should be done to help cavalry a bit more so the AI can utilize them better in battle.

I'm going to be testing to see how cavalry performs with a modified radius.

Separately,

Watchman, you've mentioned before about a formula for stating units, I was wondering if you could explain a bit how attack is determined? I'm curious about the phalanx units why some are 17, 18?

I bring this up because some of the factions begin to spam elite armies (like the two units I had in the earlier post) and steam roll across the map.

Thanks

[Laza]

EDIT: As Laza points out, the only question is whether or not to give light_spear some extra defence. But then they become too strong vs Cavalry to my mind...and the thought of giving yet more defence to phalanx units is too horrible to contemplate..

Just reduce the shield ability by 3 points for levy/native and medium phalanx and 2 points for the elite guys and everything is fine. I cant imagine why the EB team gives phalanx units 10 shield points thanks to their ability while hoplites with their giant shields and shield wall formation have only 4 points.

[Watchman]

Their defskill gets penalised in return; helps screw them in the flanks. Also, that veritable forest of long pointy things they're holding makes for a really annoying thicked for missiles to get through without getting entangled, apparently.

I did say they had some special considerations going, no ?

[Drewski]

Just reduce the shield ability by 3 points for levy/native and medium phalanx and 2 points for the elite guys and everything is fine. I cant imagine why the EB team gives phalanx units 10 shield points thanks to their ability while hoplites with their giant shields and shield wall formation have only 4 points.

By Coincidence, I already did that (see one of the posts above)...works well, whoever's idea it was

[Hippocleides]

In my opinion the best solution would be to remove the +4 attack and remove light_spear altogether and use anti-cav bonuses, . The problem is that light_spear gives a significant penalty against sword infantry and a significant bonus against cavalry, although the exact numbers are uncertain. So no matter what the attack and defense of a spear unit is statted to it will always have a huge difference in performance between fighting sword infantry and cavalry. If a light_spear unit is statted to fight equally with sword infantry it will absolutely destroy cavalry, and if it is statted to fight equally with cavalry it will lose miserably to sword infantry.

If anti-cav bonuses can be given in different amounts that is even better. The range of a spear is a certainly an advantage against cavalry but it isn't the only advantage. As Watchman has pointed out multiple times before, the most crucial point is that the infantry are trained and determined to stand and fight in close formation. So some trash skirmisher that just happens to use a very short spear as a melee weapon would get no bonus or only a small one. Dense spear infantry like hoplitai or triarii would get a moderate bonus. And eastern spear infantry like Sparabara that actually are specialized against cavalry would get a high bonus, which would make up in part for their abysmal stats.

The advantage of this system is that it allows spearmen to have their attack standardized with the sword infantry, which will prevent less experienced players from constantly jumping to the conclusion that spearmen are too strong against sword infantry, when in fact they are quite equal.

[Watchman]

And then what do you do with the units that carry *both* spear and some kind of sword, axe or w/e ?

[mcantu]

And then what do you do with the units that carry *both* spear and some kind of sword, axe or w/e ?

what i've done with the RTR stats is to give spears the spear_bonus_x (where x is any even number from 4 to 12) attribute. this way the spear attack bonus applies only to that weapon and not to any sword/axe/javelin the unit may have. i leave the light_spear attribute for non-phalanx units, as i believe the defense penalty makes sense and i like the pushing effect

[Hippocleides]

At Watchman:
I think the infantry with 2 different melee weapons should get the bonus against cavalry because you would assume that they would use spears against cavalry, even though the engine often causes them to use the wrong weapon, especially if the sword is the primary weapon and the spear is secondary. Even for spear primary infantry that switch to swords after being knocked down it makes sense, since you could imagine the second and third rows of the formation stabbing at the cavalry with spears after the first row switched to swords.

At mcantu:
I'm confused about your description of spear_bonus_x. Isn't it already possible to give different attack values to primary and secondary weapons? Or is it possible to give a bonus that takes into account both the weapon being used and the enemy being attacked?

[Ludens]

Does mount_effect also protect against charges? I am no expert on unit stats, but IIRC the spear and light_spear attributes allow the spearbearer to deflect the cavalries charge value back onto the cavalry. If you replace that with a melee-based bonus, frontal hit-and-run attacks on spearmen become a feasible strategy, which would be highly unrealistic.

[Watchman]

Not really, seeing as how it was pretty much the only option left for most cavalry that had to try dealing with close-order infantry frontally. Better than trying to slug it out static, after all.

Anyway, yeah, there's that part of the weapon attributes. And the push effect, for what it's worth. And the little detail that unless you go and severely modify the related bits of the statting system, the spears with the "light_spear" attribute and related modifiers stripped off end up exactly identical to the xiphos-class swords stat-wise...

Also mcantu ? Several millenias' worth of spearmen from around the world gnash their teeth at you.

[Ludens]

Not really, seeing as how it was pretty much the only option left for most cavalry that had to try dealing with close-order infantry frontally. Better than trying to slug it out static, after all.

I am not sure if it's realistic for prodromoi to charge into formed spearmen and suffer only minor casualties (charge value is not deflected and the spearmen can only get two or three strikes at the cavalry), retreat, reform and charge again. Charging frontally into spearmen should be a highly risky enterprise.

[Watchman]

Realistically, they wouldn't be capable of physically pressing home anyway on account of the horses hitting the brakes before such an obstacle, and would have to content themselves with putting in a few stabs with their sharp flagpoles before wheeling off and attacking again. Far as I know such repeated charges were the universal standard for most close-combat cavalry for dealing with formed heavy infantry.

[mcantu]

Also mcantu ? Several millenias' worth of spearmen from around the world gnash their teeth at you.

wait, what? what did i miss?

i think my method is very fair to spear units while still leaving some distinction between them and sword units.

and someone mentioned the charge deflection...that only works with the spear and light_spear attributes and the spear unit has to braced for the charge (the unit status will say 'ready'). part of the cav units charge bonus will be reflected back at them...

[Watchman]

It also kicks common sense and historical perspective in the teeth. Put this way: if spears were that bad against other infantry, all those tribal warriors and whatnot who primarily (or solely) fought enemies on foot would not have used them, but instead made themselves good solid clubs to smash skulls and break limbs with. Even cheaper than spears actually, as you don't even need worked stone or refined metal for the business end, and quite lethal enough when applied with the appropriate gusto...
Nevermind now axes.

[mcantu]

well light_spear doesnt affect the attack scores at all; only the parrying portion of defense skill. so if a spear and a sword unit both have the same attack score, the only penalty the spear unit will have is a -4 to his chance to parry an attack (separate from lethality/attack speed factors) which i feel is resonable seeing as how a spear wielded one-handed is less manouverable than a sword. then, giving the spear spear_bonus_4 gives it +4 vs cav only without affecting the balance vs sword units.

[Watchman]

See above. Also, for anyone carrying a shield, *that* is his primary means of defense.

[Ludens]

Realistically, they wouldn't be capable of physically pressing home anyway on account of the horses hitting the brakes before such an obstacle, and would have to content themselves with putting in a few stabs with their sharp flagpoles before wheeling off and attacking again. Far as I know such repeated charges were the universal standard for most close-combat cavalry for dealing with formed heavy infantry.

I am not sure what you are getting at. You mean that charging formed heavy infantry would be equally (in)effective against spearmen and non-spearmen?

[Watchman]

Not quite. Even Roman Legionaries with their little pig-sticker swords became nearly frontally cavalry-immune by the simple expedient of closing ranks; spears add the extra fun of a long pointy thing for a careless or slow-witted horse (or rider) to get skewered on prejecting out of that solid mass, and of course their sheer lenght is quite useful for negating the "high ground" advantage a man on horseback has over a footslogger.

[Twigvest]

Mini Mod To Balance All Spear and Phalanx Units

All I've done is remove the erroneous +4 attack from Spears and Pikes.

Copy over the EDU in C:.....\EB\sp game edu backup to make it work for your current Campaign NOT the EDU in EB\DATA as the game reads from the backup file.

Attachment 60

As i pointed out in the other thread, that link is down, can you re-up this?

[Drewski]

As i pointed out in the other thread, that link is down, can you re-up this?

Here you go

Edited original link too.

[Drapezhnik]

Drewski, after install yuor EDU file NO shield_wall ability and swim ability in Europa Barbarorum with Barbarian Invasion.
Sorry for my english.

[Drewski]

Drewski, after install yuor EDU file NO shield_wall ability and swim ability in Europa Barbarorum with Barbarian Invasion.
Sorry for my english.

Oh, sorry that happened. Unfortunately, I don't have BI version of RTW myself, so can't really say why you lost those abilities. If you need the original EB EDU file, here it is export_descr_unit.zip

[Watchman]

Well unless your modded EDU included those abilities - and by the sounds of it, that's a no - then quite obviously units in-game aren't going to get them...
I'd recommend applying WinMerge to the issue.