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Thread: Successor game rules, draft one.

  1. #1
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Successor game rules, draft one.

    Game setting rules and ranks done so far, with shameless use of the LOTR ruleset as a base (with TinCow's permission). My goal has been to add some of the strong base missed from KOTR to the greater fluidity and far greater understandability of LOTR"s rules (which I know well, having tried to slog through KOTR's rules for comparison...).

    Major changes vis a vis LOTR: The faction leader has more power, mainly with the addition of being able to allocate new lands. Houses are a little more rigid but provisions for starting new ones are still included. Somewhat fewer ranks although this can be changed quite easily.

    I'll be trying to finish the rules draft within the next day or so, but wanted to open up what I had to discussion. This is all in the draft stages, so changes can still easily be made if there are any problems.




    1. General

    (a). - Game Settings:

    M2TW Kingdoms with the 1.5 patch
    Lands to Conquer Gold Mod
    Very Hard Campaign, Very Hard Battles.
    Large Unit Size
    Battle Timer On
    Show CPU Moves
    Manage All Settlements
    Only two land units (including a general) may travel on each ship.

    (b). - Avatars: Each player will roleplay a Noble of the mighty nation of France. On joining the game, each player will choose an avatar to represent this Nobles. Avatars can be ‘family members’ or recruitable generals. Players are reminded that due to limitations imposed by the M2TW engine, only avatars on the family tree will be able to marry, have children, and have a chance of becoming Prince and King. Recruitable generals can be spawned at any time, but family member creation is beyond our control. Players may only use agents as avatars with permission from the GM, since agents cannot fight battles and have a different set of stats from family members and recruitable generals. If a Man of the Hour adoption is offered to an avatar, the choice of whether to accept it is entirely up to the avatar who is the adopter.

    If a player character is killed, there is a 5 turn wait to have an rgb spawned for him. He may immediately take any available fms, however.

    (c). - Battles: A player whose avatar leads an army that is involved in a battle will be expected to fight that battle. This will involve downloading the savegame of the battle, playing it and then uploading the resulting savegame. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle savegame being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is autoresolved. If a player cannot fight a battle that is assigned to them, the battle may also be fought by any player whose avatar will also be present in the battle. Under no circumstances will a battle be fought by a player whose avatar is not present in the battle. If there is no player available to fight a battle, it must be autoresolved. If there are no allocated avatars involved in the battle at all, it must be autoresolved.

    (d) - Game Management: At the start of each turn, the Chancellor will post an annual report on the events of the last turn, including a save game file for the new turn. After the annual report is posted, players will have at least 24 hours to download the save, and make their personal moves. Players can move their avatars, move any unit or fleet their avatar owns, and fight any battles against the AI that they are capable of fighting with their avatar’s army. Player may also move any unit, fleet, or avatar they have been given specific permission to move by the respective owner, as long as that permission is posted in a public thread. The Chancellor may extend the time limit beyond 24 hours at his discretion, but all players are encouraged to act as swiftly as possible to keep the game moving. Players may not move avatars or armies into the territory of a neutral or allied faction without the permission of an edict. Nor may they attack the settlements or armies of neutral or allied factions without a declaration of war resulting from an edict.

    (e) - Events: Whenever they desire, but no more often than once every 10 turns, Zim, TheFlax, or anyone they choose may create an in-game Event. Events are not limited in scope, subject matter, or method of implementation. All game rules can be violated to implement an Event. The players can prevent the implementation of any single Event through a simple majority of unweighted votes.

    (f) - Game Master: Zim will serve as Game Master and is responsible for management of the game and enforcement of the Game Rules. Zim can delegate any of his powers to another person whenever he chooses. Zim has the ability to create stacks for the AI.

    2. Houses

    (a). - Starting Houses: There are four starting Houses, named The Duchy of Bourgogne, The Duchy of Aquitaine, The Duchy of Lorraine and The Duchy of Bretagne. These starting Houses are to be initially led by Raymond de Provence, Prince Louis, Hugues de Champagne and Alain de Rohan, respectively. The leaders of these starting Houses are exempt from any obligations to join the Houses of their parents, and are the first Dukes of their respective Houses.

    All other family members start in the House of their parents and are considered to have sworn an oath of fealty to their "parent", regardless of whether they are born into the family, are adopted, or marry into it. They are able to break their familial oath and attempt to join another House, start a new one, or remain independent. However, this brings with it the chance of Civil War as laid out in rule 6 (b).

    (b). - RGBs: Recruitable generals start off in the game as independent Knights, excepting the first two as per rule 2 (a). From this position they are free to remain independent or join any of the existing Houses. Should they join an existing House and own land, they will be counted as landed vassals for the purpose of determining ranks within their House, but are unable to inherit leadership of the House. Should a Knight receive an adoption or marriage offer, they will be required to join the House of their new parents, if said parents have one. If they are already members of another House this will still carry the risk of Civil War as per Rule 6 (b).

    (c) - New Houses: Any independent land owning Noble may attempt to start a new House by proposing a Codex Amendment at the Council of Nobles. Should their Codex Amendment pass, they automatically attain the rank of Duke of their new House. They may name it whatever they please. Recruitable generals who become Dukes in this manner are exempt from any requirement to join a parent's House if they are adopted or become an FM through marriage.

    3. - Feudal Hierarchy

    (a). - Rank Gain and Loss: All Nobles enter the game at the rank of Knight. Nobles will be promoted to a higher rank as soon as they meet the requirements for that rank. If, at any point, a Noble ceases to meet the requirements of their existing rank, they will be demoted to the highest rank whose requirements they meet.

    (b). - Gaining and Losing Provinces: All conquered provinces must be ratified by an edict, which can be passed at the session before the conquest or be applied retroactively at the first session after. If a province is not ratified in this manner by the end of the very next session after it was made, it must be given away or abandoned. While a province is not ratified taxes must be set to the highest level possible and no recruitment can be made in that settlement. Any province conquered and ratified becomes part of the King's Demesne. At the time of conquest, the conquering noble can refuse to hand the province over to the King, but this puts him in a state of Civil War with the King. The King can be prevented from giving any province in the Demesne to another Noble by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council.

    The King's choice of who to give the province can be blocked by a 2/3ds majority of the Council (excluding the King himself, except as a tiebreaker). For this to happen a Duke must declare an emergency session to have the matter voted on.

    At the start of the game, Zim will determine which Nobles receive control of the starting provinces, to a maximum of one province per Noble. Nobles lose control of one of their provinces if they voluntarily give it to another Nobles, if it is conquered by an AI faction, if it is occupied by the army of a Noble who has made a Declaration of War against them, or if they break an oath of fealty (however, if a civil war results they can regain the province either in the war or through a treaty).

    (c). - Retinue: At any time, a Noble may give any retinue item/member they possess to another Noble or remove it from their avatar without giving it to anyone else. If a retinue item/member cannot be transferred or removed due to game coding or distance between avatars, console commands may be used to allow the transfer or removal.

    (d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land goes to the highest member of his feudal chain. If he is independent the land goes to the King. All land in the King's Demesne is passed to the new King. Duke's can pass on their rank to a House member of their choosing, by naming a successor in a valid will. Wills must be PMed to Zim before the Avatar’s death to be considered valid. If a Duke dies without naming a successor, the King picks the successor from among the highest ranked Nobles in their House.

    (e) - Oaths of Fealty: Any Independent Noble may swear an oath of fealty to any Noble whenever he wishes. In order to become a vassal of another Noble, a Noble must take an Oath of Fealty by specifically swearing allegiance to that player in a public thread. The prospective Lord has the right to refuse to accept the Oath. An Oath of Fealty can be broken if either the Lord or the Vassal specifically revokes it in a public thread. If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty without the permission of his Lord, he cannot swear a new Oath of Fealty until 5 turns have passed. A Noble can only have one Lord at a time, but he may have an unlimited number of Vassals. Oaths of Fealty cannot be sworn or broken while the Council is in session.

    (f) - Feudal Ranks: In the event of a conflict, Rule 3 (f) takes priority over all other rules. The feudal ranks and positions are as follows:

    Knight:
    Requirements: None
    Influence: 1
    Powers:
    (1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
    Penalties:
    (1) Cannot run for Chancellor.

    Baron:
    Requirements: Must have personal control of a province.
    Influence: 1
    Powers:
    (1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
    (2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
    (3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 1 units per full 10 turn Chancellor term.
    Penalties:
    (1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Baron's Duke. If the Baron is not in a House, the provinces are given to the King.

    Count:
    Requirements: Must have personal control of a province. Must have at least one landowning vassal. Must be a member of a House.
    Influence: 1
    Powers:
    (1) Can propose one Edict per Council Session.
    (2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
    (3) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 2 units per full 10 turn Chancellor term.
    Penalties:
    (1) Loses control of all provinces if they fail to vote in two consecutive Normal Council Sessions. All provinces lost in this way are given to the Count's Duke.

    Duke:
    Requirements: Must be one of the beginning Dukes as per Rule 2 (a), have become Duke as per the will of a deceased Duke as per Rule 3 (d), have been given the title by a resigning duke, have attained the title of Duke by Rule 2 (c) or gained the title as part of a peace agreement at the end of a Civil War.
    Influence: 1 + 1 for every Count in his House.
    Powers:
    (1) Can propose three Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
    (2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can destroy any building in their settlement and all unallocated settlements under their control. Can rename any settlement under their control at any time.
    (3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions if another Duke seconds the call.
    (4) May at any time rename their House.
    (5) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
    (6) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 3 units per full 10 turn Chancellor term.
    (7) Can voluntarily resign and pass on their title to any land owning Noble of their choosing.
    Penalties:
    (1) Cannot hold any other rank except those of Chancellor and Prince.

    Prince:
    Requirements: Must be the in-game faction heir.
    Influence: 2.
    Powers:
    (1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Prince are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Prince's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
    (2) In the absence of the King, the Prince can ban nobles from a Council Session. Banned Senators cannot speak or propose legislation, but they are permitted to vote.
    (3) In the absence of the King, the Prince can adjudicate on rule disputes. However, if a rule dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Chancellor will be the adjudicator.
    (4) If this rank is held during a Normal Council Session, can Prioritize a total of 1 units per full 10 turn Chancellor term. This power is cumulative with the ability to prioritize units under any other rank held by the Prince.

    King:
    Requirements: Must be the in-game faction leader.
    Influence: equal to authority stat.
    Powers:
    (1) Can propose an unlimited number of Edicts or Amendments per Council Session.
    (2) Can set the build queue and tax rate for all settlements in the King's Demesne. Can destroy any building in those settlements and can rename any of them at any time.
    (3) Can call Emergency Council Sessions.
    (4) Cannot be banned from a Council Session.
    (5) Can prioritize 4 units per term.
    (6) Can declare war on any faction at any time, for any reason.
    (7) Can veto one Edict or Amendment per 3 ranks of Authority.
    (8) Decides which noble, if any, a Princess should marry.
    (9) Can allocate all newly conquered land, or let it remain within the King's Demesne if he wishes.
    (10) Once during his reign, the King may automatically assume the post of Chancellor for a single term. The King must declare that he is exercising that right at a Council Session; He will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the King can also compete in normal Chancellor elections.
    (11) Can ban Nobles from a Council Session. Banned Nobles cannot speak or propose legislations, but they are permitted to vote.
    (12) Can adjudicate on edicts and amendments. However, if a rule dispute directly involves the King or the Prince, the Chancellor will be the adjudicator.
    (13) Can rename the faction at any time.
    (14) Can move the Capital at any time, as long as the new Capital is within the King's Demesne.

    Penalties:
    (1) Cannot hold any other feudal rank except that of Chancellor.
    (2) Cannot swear an Oath of Fealty to another Senator and cannot have any Vassals.
    Inheritance: On the death of a King, all Oaths of Fealty pertaining to the Noble who is now King are instantly broken, with no penalties. The new King takes control of any provinces in the King's Demesne, as well as retaining those under his control at the time of his ascension. If he was Duke of his House, his named heir for that post attains the rank. In the absence of a named heir, the second in charge of the House becomes Duke.

    Chancellor:
    Requirements: Must have been elected Chancellor or attained it through declaration under King's Power (10).
    Influence: For every term a noble serves as Chancellor, he gets a permanant +1 to his influence. This bonus is cumulative for nobles who serve multiple terms as Chancellor. This bonus does not apply to the King or any Chancellor who was removed by being impeached.
    Powers:
    (1) This rank is always held at the same time as other feudal ranks. The Influence and Powers of the Chancellor are added on top of the Influence and Powers of the Chancellor's other rank(s), unless the Power specifically states otherwise.
    (2) The Chancellor is repsonsible for all monetary expenditures in the game. The choice of what to build/recruit is entirely up to him, except as stated in the Limitations on Powers.
    (3) The Chancellor can move all armies that start a turn outside a settlement and led by a captain.
    (4) The Chancellor can move all fleets, unless they started the turn inside a port in the realm.
    (5) The Chancellor can move and use all agents.
    Limitations on powers:
    (1) The Chancellor must respect all settlement tax rates and build queues. The Chancellor is not required to build anything, but if he does build in a settlement, it must be the first item in the build queue. If no build queue is posted for a settlement, the Chancellor may build whatever he wishes.
    (2) The Chancellor must respect all requests for the transfer or deletion of retinue members/items, as long as these requests comply with the rules.
    (3) Prioritized Units - No money can be spent on any recruitment until all Prioritized Units have been funded, unless the Nobles who Prioritized them agree otherwise. If there are multiple Prioritized Units, and not enough funding for all of them, the Chancellor may choose which to recruit first. Nobles may specify any of his settlements for the unit to be recruited from, and any unit available for hire in that settlement to be recruited. Artillery and mercenaries cannot be Prioritized. A unit may be retrained instead of recruited if the unit is already located in a settlement where it can be retrained in some fashion.
    (4) Cannot remove a building from any build queue if construction has already begun on it, unless the owner of the province agrees otherwise.
    Last edited by Zim; 07-18-2009 at 08:35.
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  2. #2
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    No problems with the changes in the House rules then? I'll try to finish up the rest in the next few days and leave that open for more discussion.
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  3. #3
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    4. - Government

    (a) - Sessions: The Council of the Realm (Conseil du Royaume) will meet in a Normal Session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each Normal and Emergency Session consists of 3 real time days of debate, followed by 2 real time days of voting. Zim or anyone delegated by him can change the length of individual sessions at will.

    (b) - Proposing Legislation: During each session, Nobles may propose Edicts and Amendments, up to the limit allowed by their rank. Edicts and Amendments must be seconded by two other Nobles before they can be put to the vote.

    (c) - Edicts: Edicts require a simple majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect until the next normal session of the Council. Tied Edicts fail. If contradictory Edicts are passed, the one with the most votes takes priority. Edicts can only be enforced by IC means. Edicts cannot contradict the Game Rules.

    (d) - Codex Amendments: Amendments require a two-thirds majority of weighted votes to pass and remain in effect permanently, or until repealed by another Codex Amendment. Codex Amendments can only be enforced by IC means. Codex Amendments cannot contradict the Game Rules.

    (e) - Rule Changes: Rule Changes require a two-thirds majority of unweighted votes (1 vote per player) to pass. Rule Changes can permanently change the Game Rules. Any player can propose Rule Changes, regardless of IC rank. Zim can veto any proposed Rule Change, but does not vote. Game Rules are enforced by IC or OOC means, as Zim sees fit.

    (f) - Influence: Each Noble’s voting power is equivalent to his total Influence. No Noble's Influence may ever be lower than 1. Influence is increased permanantly by 1 if a Noble marries a Princess of the royal family and 1 for each term a noble serves as Chancellor.

    (g) - War: Except as allowed by rank powers under Rule 3 (f), any declaration of war must be authorized by an Edict.

    (h) - Elections: At each Normal Session, on the death of the Chancellor, or on the impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age).

    (i) - Impeachment: The Chancellor can be impeached and removed from office by a two-thirds majority vote of the Council. Impeachment takes effect immediately after the vote is passed. After impeachment, a fresh election is held to elect a new Chancellor, although the King may also exercise his power to become Chancellor at that point. The Noble replacing the impeached Chancellor serves out the remainder of the impeached Chancellor's term. All Edicts passed in the Council session that elected the impeached Chancellor remain valid, unless overturned by new Edicts at the Emergency Session that impeached him.

    5. - Armies

    (a) - Armies: Except as stated in Rule 5 (b), all Nobles own all army units that begin a turn in a stack led by their avatar, in the garrison of a settlement they own, and in the garrison of a fort inside a province they own, regardless of how the units got there. Nobles instantly own any Captain-led stack that their avatar moves onto. No one may move or disband any units owned by a Noble without his permission.

    (b) - Seizing Armies: Any Noble may move his avatar onto an army owned by another Noble from the same feudal chain. If this occurs, the Noble with the highest feudal rank instantly owns the entire combined army. If both Nobles are of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the entire combined army. The King may instantly seize any army his avatar moves onto, regardless of the status of the Noble that previously owned it, unless that Noble is in a state of Civil War against the King. A Noble may not move his avatar onto an army owned by a Noble from outside his feudal chain unless both Nobles agree to the move beforehand. If there is a subsequent disagreement about who owns the units in the army, where the army is to move, or who commands the army, the King will decide. This Rule does not apply to garrisons of settlements or forts. Avatars may never be seized.

    (c) - Naval Fleets: All Nobles own all fleets that begin a turn in the port of a settlement they own, regardless of how the fleet got there. Otherwise, naval fleets are owned by the Noble with the highest feudal rank who is onboard the fleet. If there are multiple Nobles of the same rank, the eldest Noble will own the fleet. No one may move or disband any ships in a fleet owned by a Noble without his permission.

    (d) - Historical Army Composition: An army of 10 units or less cannot have more than 3 units of heavy cavalry. An army of 11 units or more cannot have more than 5 units of heavy cavalry. For the purposes of this rule, bodyguard units do not count as heavy cavalry. Armies that do not meet these requirements cannot fight battles under any circumstances, though they can be used for transportation.


    6. - Civil War

    (a) - Declaration of War: A Noble must make a Declaration of War towards a specific Noble in a public thread before they can attack any of that Noble’s armies or settlements. A Declaration of War applies to all Nobles of lower rank in the vassal chains of both the Noble who makes the Declaration and the Noble who is the target of the Declaration, including vassals who swear an Oath of Fealty after the Declaration of War has been made. A Declaration of War does not apply to any Nobles in the vassal chain who are above the declarer or the target.

    (b) - Civil War through Oath Breaking: If a Vassal breaks an Oath of Fealty, anyone above him in the feudal chain may choose to instantly enter a state of Civil War. For the purposes Rule 6 (a), the Noble who broke the Oath of Fealty will be considered the person who issued the Declaration of War, and the Noble who chooses to enter the state of Civil War will be treated as the target of the Declaration of War.

    (c) - Ending a Civil War: A Civil War will end when all Nobles on one side are dead or all living Nobles on both sides publicly agree to a Peace Treaty. A Noble's public agreement to a Peace Treaty will also remove all Nobles below him in his feudal chain from the Civil War, unless the vassal Nobles specifically state otherwise in a public thread. So long as it is limited to changes to the provinces, settlements, armies, Oaths of Fealty, retinue, or the title of Duke of the Noble(s) signing the Peace Treaty, it will be considered binding law. All terms of a Peace Treaty that go beyond these limits, particularly those that increase a Noble’s influence or powers beyond those allowed by the rules, will only be binding if adopted by a two-thirds majority of the Council at the next normal session. Individual Nobles may unilaterally remove themselves from a Civil War within one turn of the Declaration of War that brought them into it by breaking all Oaths of Fealty that tie them to any Noble involved in the War and by publicly declaring Neutrality. Neutrality cannot be claimed by a declarer, a target, or any Noble who has been involved in a PvP Battle during that specific Civil War.

    (d) - Civil Wars on the Campaign Map: While a Civil War is in progress, all players involved in the Civil War will lose their ability to make any moves on the campaign map. On every game turn, all players involved in the Civil War will submit a PM to Zim giving movement orders for that turn. These movement orders can include up to a maximum of two of the following orders:

    (1) - Gather: The player may gather units he owns that are located in the same province as his avatar, but which are not currently located in his avatar's army. All units specified in this manner will be teleported into the avatar's army.

    (2) - Move: The player may move his avatar's army into any adjacent province. If a player desires to cross a body of water, Zim will determine how many Move orders are required to cross it, and whether the player can end a turn at sea.

    (3) - Defend: The player fortifies his army in a specific province, providing a terrain advantage if a battle occurs in that province before the player moves again.

    After the turn ends, Zim will implement all moves for players involved in the Civil War, utilizing the console. The orders will be executed simultaneously for all players, but in the sequence they were listed in the PMs (i.e. Order 1 will be implement for all players, followed by Order 2 for all players). If this movement results in a player entering a province with a hostile AI-controlled army, Zim will determine whether a battle against the AI will occur. Movement will continue in this manner until two hostile player-controlled armies enter the same province. When this occurs, a PvP Battle will begin. All PvP Battles will be considered Meeting Engagements, in which neither side has a terrain advantage, unless one of the armies was Defending the province where the battle occurred. If this happens, the defending army will get a terrain advantage in the following manner: (1) If the province is owned by the Defender, the battle will be a siege assault of the settlement. (2) If the province is not owned by the Defender, the battle map will be chosen such that a terrain advantage, such as a high mountain, fort, or bridge is given to the Defender. The Umpire of the battle will determine the precise nature of the terrain advantage.

    (e) PVP Recruitment: Recruitment during Civil Wars will take place through a draft system, outlined as below.

    (1) Each turn of civil war, players can prioritise recruitment (draft) one unit for every settlement they own or have conquered during the war, replacing their normal prioritizations until the next Council session (normally 10 turns).

    (2) Drafts take precedence over ALL other monetary expenditures in the game and are executed by the GM when implementing combatants' move orders, recruiting by settlement in a random order, but with priority given to settlements that did not draft in the previous turn.

    (3) When the civil war is over, each player must give orders to the GM to disband one full strength unit for every unit drafted during the war (the GM will umpire any unit transfer exploits designed to evade disbandment).



    (f) - PvP Battles: Whenever a PvP Battle occurs, if both players agree, the battle will be fought via multiplayer, with Zim or anyone he chooses acting as umpire. The umpire will determine the map and the precise composition of the armies. If the battle is not fought via multiplayer, there will be a 24 hour voting period to determine how the battle will be fought. The voting options will be (a) Tabletop Battle (b) Abbreviated Tabletop Battle and (c) AI Battle. All players may vote, even those not involved in the battle, all votes will be unweighted, and the option that receives the most votes will be chosen. Tabletop Battles will be in the style of the The Battle of the Iron Bridge and the Battle of the Basileis and will be umpired by Zim or anyone he chooses. Abbreviated Tabletop Battles will be identical to a Tabletop Battle, but will be 1 turn in length. Players will determine their starting positions and outline a general strategy for the battle. The umpire will then play out the battle and determine the victor. The umpire may allow a maximum of 1 or 2 additional turns beyond the starting turn if they so choose. The Abbreviated Tabletop Battle will be run by Zim or anyone he chooses. AI Battles will be custom battles in the TW engine in which the AI will control all units on both sides. AI battles will be umpired by Zim or anyone he choose. The umpire will determine all settings to be used in the battle, including the map and the precise composition of the armies. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire must attempt to have the battle replicate the in-game state of affairs to the best of his ability. Regardless of the type of battle chosen, the umpire will determine the results, including, but not limited to, units to be disbanded as casualties, avatars to be killed off as casualties, and changes in the control of provinces. Console commands may be used to implement the results.
    Last edited by Zim; 07-18-2009 at 08:38.
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  4. #4
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    So...no problems with the rules?
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  5. #5
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I'd definitely play with those rules. Seems a good reflection of what was discussed towards the end of LotR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    TheFlax needs to die on principle. No townie should even be that scummy.

  6. #6
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Thanks, that's what I was going for.

    What about the prioritized units for more ranks than just the House leaders? I thought it would reflect how decentralized militaries were in a feudal system, and give players a little extra something to call their own in this slightly more House-centric rule system.

    n the other hand, would it be too much of a pain for the Chancellor?

    Here's something I didn't consider at all that TinCow posted in the old discussion thread. He had mentioned the vast majority of players never made it past 1 influence and that the influence rules didn't seem to impact the game much.

    Based on what I saw in LotR, I think it might actively be good to completely abolish stat-based Influence. Just give everyone one vote and be done with it.
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  7. #7
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I editted the rules a bit, adding to the will section (mainly just that Dukes choose their successors in their will), and cleared up a few thing in the ranks so that it was clear that to hold the rank of Count one had to be a member of a House and that Dukes couldn't hold another rank in addition to the rank of Duke, excepting that of Chancellor or Prince.
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    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Can Counts create Houses? But without the legitimacy of the "First Four"? Can a Duke utterly disown his own House and provide said legitimacy to the upstart Count led House?

    If so - fun times indeed

  9. #9
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    Here's something I didn't consider at all that TinCow posted in the old discussion thread. He had mentioned the vast majority of players never made it past 1 influence and that the influence rules didn't seem to impact the game much.
    I think this is a good idea. It simplifies things for the purposes of record-keeping and makes pre-election vote counting easier for people who are trying to push through (or block) legislation. At the same time, I didn't feel like the stat-based influence really had any impact on role-playing, which is the most important part of the game.

    What DID have an impact was influence earned by player actions. This was most notable in the bonuses for the Ex-Megas and for people who managed to marry a Princess. I think that it would work well to give everyone a base vote of 1, and only allow additional influence beyond that due to similar in-game actions. Other options along these lines that could be explored:

    1) Influence granted by the consent of the Senate, such as a 'triumph' for a great military victory or some other significant achievement.
    2) Influence granted to someone who has won a PvP battle.

    I also think your truncated rank system is a big improvement. LotR ended up having too many ranks and it was too difficult to reach the highest ranks. Reaching a high rank should be hard, but not impossible which is how it turned out in LotR. I think your system will work better.


  10. #10
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I like the rules.

    I like anything that is codified as game rules that refer to actions and things that can use the game engine to easily manage.

    Also things that are simple.
    Last edited by AussieGiant; 06-18-2009 at 20:24.

  11. #11
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    As it currently stands if a Count successfully became independent they would go down to Baron status until they managed to convince the Council to vote into creation their new House. They'd be free to create a defacto House, but would be blocked off from the higher ranks until their House gained legitamacy.

    I had done that to make the Houses more stable in that one would need to join one to gain access to the higher ranks. Maybe that's going too far?

    In your scenario is the Duke dropping his own House to rule the new one? Or dropping his rank to bestow it on the Count? The former is easy enough but I hadn't even considered the latter. I can see a Duke losing their title as part of a peace agreement in a Civil War.

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    Can Counts create Houses? But without the legitimacy of the "First Four"? Can a Duke utterly disown his own House and provide said legitimacy to the upstart Count led House?

    If so - fun times indeed
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  12. #12
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    As it currently stands if a Count successfully became independent they would go down to Baron status until they managed to convince the Council to vote into creation their new House. They'd be free to create a defacto House, but would be blocked off from the higher ranks until their House gained legitamacy.

    I had done that to make the Houses more stable in that one would need to join one to gain access to the higher ranks. Maybe that's going too far?

    In your scenario is the Duke dropping his own House to rule the new one? Or dropping his rank to bestow it on the Count? The former is easy enough but I hadn't even considered the latter. I can see a Duke losing their title as part of a peace agreement in a Civil War.
    The idea is that a Count fights for his right to have a House, but he isn't as strong, but he isn't subjected to the whims of the First Four.

    The second part is the idea that a Duke could disown his own House in favor of another, such as said Count above, for his own reasons - thus stripping one of the First Four of it's legitimacy, and granting it to the Counts House, who is now a Duke. This would allow for a dynamic change in the Houses and for some interesting storyline. This would of course be a part of the Dukes will, so death or retirement must come first.

    Also, yes, that was also implied - what if a Count defeated a Duke and demanded the title for peace?

  13. #13
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I know I didn't pay much attention to stat influence, don't think I ever qualified for more than one until I became Megas.

    It would simplify things greatly as long as the list of ways to gain influence was kept fairly small. The influence from marrying a Princess and ex-Megas/Chancellor ones you mentioned from LotR are a good start. I wonder if the Prince should get a boost if he marries a foreign princess..

    Should Princes get 1 extra influence?

    The Triumph idea is neat. I wonder if there's something similiar that would fit in with the likely more western faction I suspect will be picked...

    I really like the idea of some kind of influence reward for successful pvp/civil wars. I would be at least partly concerned about an automatic +1 influence for winning a battle. If a Civil war went back and forth a fair deal that could be a lot of battles. Then again, that hasn't happened yet in two games (I guess the Swabian Civil War had the greatest number of battles, although the War of the Basileis had the potential for more). Do you think that would be an issue?

    What do you think of the number of ranks? As it stands except for Duke the ranks listed are pretty easy to attain (A House that managed to get 5 people counting the Duke could have two counts), but I did want to make it fewer than LOTR. I've been thinking over whether one more might be appropriate. Definitely not any more than that.


    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    I think this is a good idea. It simplifies things for the purposes of record-keeping and makes pre-election vote counting easier for people who are trying to push through (or block) legislation. At the same time, I didn't feel like the stat-based influence really had any impact on role-playing, which is the most important part of the game.

    What DID have an impact was influence earned by player actions. This was most notable in the bonuses for the Ex-Megas and for people who managed to marry a Princess. I think that it would work well to give everyone a base vote of 1, and only allow additional influence beyond that due to similar in-game actions. Other options along these lines that could be explored:

    1) Influence granted by the consent of the Senate, such as a 'triumph' for a great military victory or some other significant achievement.
    2) Influence granted to someone who has won a PvP battle.

    I also think your truncated rank system is a big improvement. LotR ended up having too many ranks and it was too difficult to reach the highest ranks. Reaching a high rank should be hard, but not impossible which is how it turned out in LotR. I think your system will work better.
    Last edited by Zim; 06-18-2009 at 22:07.
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  14. #14
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Well, as it stands a Count could fight to leave a House and even form a defacto House of new members or fellow deserters, but would lose access to the higher ranks (busted down to Baron).

    So said Duke would be giving his title of Duke to the Count? If he dies he can make anybody he wants his heir. I'd be interested in hearing whether people think Dukes should be able to "retire" while still alive and give his title to another.

    I definitely think an addition to the rules should be made to allow losing the title through civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    The idea is that a Count fights for his right to have a House, but he isn't as strong, but he isn't subjected to the whims of the First Four.

    The second part is the idea that a Duke could disown his own House in favor of another, such as said Count above, for his own reasons - thus stripping one of the First Four of it's legitimacy, and granting it to the Counts House, who is now a Duke. This would allow for a dynamic change in the Houses and for some interesting storyline. This would of course be a part of the Dukes will, so death or retirement must come first.

    Also, yes, that was also implied - what if a Count defeated a Duke and demanded the title for peace?
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    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Hmmm...you mentioned another rank as a possibility...maybe we should have a rank that a King can bestow, that adds power and prestige to a House, or some other function, that another House would want, creating friction through sucking up and power gain? I keep thinking Archduke or Master of Arms as possible titles.

  16. #16
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    That might not be a bad idea, although we should take care to keep things from getting too complicated. Maybe the Mast of Arms to lead the King's army (on that note I don't think I gave the king any prioritized units, better fix that).
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  17. #17
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I'm not trying to be rude here,

    but,

    I think everyone should just stop talking about more rules.

    Just play the damn game and if you want more rules, then do it "In Character" as part of the frame work already created.

    That was nearly the single most effect aspect of KotR.

    -EDIT- The "egypt" and "balloon" is to ensure those of you that know me well enough realise this is a bit of friendly slapping.
    Last edited by AussieGiant; 06-18-2009 at 22:46.

  18. #18
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Would you say that the rules are properly balanced right now then? With no rank needed between Duke and Count?

    As it is I'd be perfectly happy just making a few minor adjustment before finishing up everything we need to start the game. The main last few changes I'm considering are:

    1. Allow Dukes to lose their title through Civil War
    2. Prioritized units for the King, something I just forgot writing up that rank.
    3. "Possibly" scrapping the somewhat confusing stat influence system for something simpler, one vote per person plus a few titles (Duke, having been Chancellor, King, marrying the Princess) adding a bit of influence.
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  19. #19
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    Would you say that the rules are properly balanced right now then? With no rank needed between Duke and Count?

    As it is I'd be perfectly happy just making a few minor adjustment before finishing up everything we need to start the game. The main last few changes I'm considering are:

    1. Allow Dukes to lose their title through Civil War
    2. Prioritized units for the King, something I just forgot writing up that rank.
    3. "Possibly" scrapping the somewhat confusing stat influence system for something simpler, one vote per person plus a few titles (Duke, having been Chancellor, King, marrying the Princess) adding a bit of influence.
    Sounds fine to me - a Master of Arms title should be something we should fight over ingame, not pregame I suppose.

    and AG, does this mean your in?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Upon a quick read, I like what I see, and I'm in favor of there being fewer ranks as opposed to more. Even the highest-attaining players in LotR couldn't sniff Exarch.
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  21. #21
    Tiberius/Fred/Mark/Isaak Member flyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Did you not like the idea to limit expansion and strengthen the legislative body by requring "annexation" votes, which is that each conquered province has to be annexed by an Edict or given back?
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  22. #22
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyd View Post
    Did you not like the idea to limit expansion and strengthen the legislative body by requring "annexation" votes, which is that each conquered province has to be annexed by an Edict or given back?
    Could you elaborate on the overall amount of steps for this? To me it sounds as if your saying that each province captured is only captured until the next Chancellor phase unless it is ratified in - considering the King himself gets the provinces this game and then doles them out how he sees fit, that might curb expansion by Houses that do not share good feelings with the King, while allowing another House to literally explode overnight.

  23. #23
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    That's what happened in KOTR, isn't it? How did it work out?

    I joined during the Cataclysm, and then in the period after there was an edict for me and OK to take back Outremer so I never really had to chance to run up on limits on taking territory...
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    I think limiting expansion is vital. If we get too big too quickly, then we end up with what happened to LotR - there was simply too much wealth and land to go around. Hence no one really bothered to pick a fight, because there was more to lose than to gain from doing so.

    Also, I say we try and get some newer players to the series to be the King and Prince. It helps get them into the game more. And we should advertise around for players soon, if we want a good number.

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  25. #25
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Thing is, we don't want someone who will just disappear from the game after a few turns.
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  26. #26
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    If everyone's ok with it I could add that requirement for an edict for annexation.

    As far a who gets the beginning fms, I was thinking of giving some of them to players who made it to/near the end of LOTR but hadn't gotten to play the Basileus, Caesar, or a House leader, if nobody objects.
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  27. #27
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    The requirement of an edict for annexation sounds good.

    I'm wondering at the moment, how many players are we aiming for?
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  28. #28
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    For the very beginning of the game I don't expect a ton of players (although the response has been greater than I anticipated ). In the long term, I'd be very happy if we had 10-14 players or so at most times. Of course, the more the better.
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  29. #29
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    Just did a rules update.

    Changes:

    1. Allow Dukes to lose their title through Civil War
    2. Prioritized units for the King.
    3. Scrapped the somewhat confusing stat influence system for something simpler, one vote per person plus a few titles (Duke, having been Chancellor, Prince, King, marrying the Princess) adding a bit of influence. Also I specifically weakened Ducal influence a little by changing it to 1+1 for every Count in their House rather than every vassal. I want the Dukes to be powerful but not thought 1 influence for every landed noble might be a bit much, unless Houses are very small...
    4. Set an edict requirement for keeping conquered provinces.

    Also, TinCow and I have been talking about new House creation and came upon the idea of maybe having Kings be allowed to create new Dukes and Houses, with the possibility of being blocked by a 2/3ds majority of the Council. I think there'd be some limit, one per term, or maybe even rarer to prevent the position from being spammed. I could also keep to the 50% majority that can currently create a House, or up that to a 2/3rds.

    What does everyone think of that and the changes made thus far?
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  30. #30

    Default Re: Successor game rules, draft one.

    It's pretty good, except I think that being a family member should be a requirement for the formation of a new house. Houses represent the major nobility, and historically most of them were blood-related to the current king.

    Other than that they're great!

    Also, if possible, try to make the number of unchangeable rules as small as possible. That way most ammendments can be dealt in an IC fashion, avoiding personal disputes and animosities.

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