Europe

[Fragony]

ow nvm

[Furunculus]

for what i want of the EU a council of ministers is entirely suitable.

[Fragony]

For example, the Dutch Socialist Party thinks that Dutch judges should cast aside EU rules if they conflict with national legislation- they either have not thought this one through or are not honest enough to admit that they think there should be no EU regulation at all

Say that 3 times out loud

[Kagemusha]

I am sorry to disappoint our member from Finland who maintains that 'Europe' is like a sacred cow and you're either for or against it. I regard it as the only chance to preserve our values and way of life, but if we want it to be just that, it needs a lot of reforming.

Well in that case, maybe our most elusive member from Netherlands should be more open about political alliances whom are actually trying to reform EU and not condemn them before they have not even proposed anything. Also stereotyping whole countries in the process does not help.

If we look at the last elections.Far right and populist parties gained more seats in the EU parliament. Maybe that should give a message that everything is not quite right in the glorious new States of Europe we are living in.

[Furunculus]

hear hear. well put.

[Adrian II]

Well in that case, maybe our most elusive member from Netherlands should be more open about political alliances whom are actually trying to reform EU and not condemn them before they have not even proposed anything. Also stereotyping whole countries in the process does not help.

If we look at the last elections.Far right and populist parties gained more seats in the EU parliament. Maybe that should give a message that everything is not quite right in the glorious new States of Europe we are living in.

Our member from Finland seems to have trouble reading. I already discussed the programme of the new formation, I offered a partial explanation for certain phenomena without stereotyping anyone, and I already stated that not all is glorious in the state of EU.

Mind you, the fact that far right parties gain seats could be a symptom of all sorts of things, including unresolved local issues that have nothing to do with Europe.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Two world wars should have taught us a valuable lesson about why we should unite...

Kind of ironic, then, that the last one was started by someone who did want to "unite" Europe.

But think of something else that the powerhouses of Europe have in common besides the European Union. I think you'll find that it is a much larger reason why we have peace.

[Adrian II]

Kind of ironic, then, that the last one was started by someone who did want to "unite" Europe.

Before we call it a Godwin, let me quote Timothy Garton Ash in an attempt to remain on topic:

How would you describe a British politician who prefers getting acquainted with the finer points of the history of the Waffen-SS in Latvia to maximising British influence with Barack Obama? An idiot? A madman? A nincompoop?

You only have to go back to the newspaper cuttings from 2005, when Cameron first announced his leadership clincher, to see the horrified response of Timothy Kirkhope, the Tory leader in the European parliament, who is now charged with sewing together this ragbag. And ragbag is not my word but that of Sir Robert Atkins, the Conservative MEP for North West England, who in 2005 wrote to local Conservatives warning that the party would be left in "futile isolation", in the company of an "unappealing ragbag" of far-right, racist and Europhobic fringe parties. Tell us, Sir Robert, what would you call it now?

[Kralizec]

For example, the Dutch Socialist Party thinks that Dutch judges should cast aside EU rules if they conflict with national legislation- they either have not thought this one through or are not honest enough to admit that they think there should be no EU regulation at all

Say that 3 times out loud

There are a number of things that I don't want the EU to interfere with, but regulations that already exist should be respected. Otherwise, what's the point?

There were two cases over 40 years ago versus the Dutch and Italian governments when they raised import tarrifs and nationalized an energy company respectively - both were blatant violations of a treaty they signed voluntarily and of the regulations that resulted from it. If national governments were given unlimited freedom to abandon agreements they've previously entered, then the EU would be the useless institution it's often made out to be.

[Beskar]

I think federation system would be the best way to go, in the terms that each of the member states can deal with their own matters opposed to a centralised European dictatorship.

[Furunculus]

Before we call it a Godwin, let me quote Timothy Garton Ash in an attempt to remain on topic:

How would you describe a British politician who prefers getting acquainted with the finer points of the history of the Waffen-SS in Latvia to maximising British influence with Barack Obama? An idiot? A madman? A nincompoop?

You only have to go back to the newspaper cuttings from 2005, when Cameron first announced his leadership clincher, to see the horrified response of Timothy Kirkhope, the Tory leader in the European parliament, who is now charged with sewing together this ragbag. And ragbag is not my word but that of Sir Robert Atkins, the Conservative MEP for North West England, who in 2005 wrote to local Conservatives warning that the party would be left in "futile isolation", in the company of an "unappealing ragbag" of far-right, racist and Europhobic fringe parties. Tell us, Sir Robert, what would you call it now?

timothy garton-ash is an idiot who is hopelessly out of touch with british public opinion, so beware the veracity of his pontificating on britains place in the EU.

[Furunculus]

I think federation system would be the best way to go, in the terms that each of the member states can deal with their own matters opposed to a centralised European dictatorship.

you mean like running your own financialo services regulation? the nature of a federation is that the federated parts retain power to govern only that which the central Gov't is not bothered about running.

why does britain need to be part of a federated europe?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Before we call it a Godwin, let me quote Timothy Garton Ash in an attempt to remain on topic:

How would you describe a British politician who prefers getting acquainted with the finer points of the history of the Waffen-SS in Latvia to maximising British influence with Barack Obama? An idiot? A madman? A nincompoop?

You only have to go back to the newspaper cuttings from 2005, when Cameron first announced his leadership clincher, to see the horrified response of Timothy Kirkhope, the Tory leader in the European parliament, who is now charged with sewing together this ragbag. And ragbag is not my word but that of Sir Robert Atkins, the Conservative MEP for North West England, who in 2005 wrote to local Conservatives warning that the party would be left in "futile isolation", in the company of an "unappealing ragbag" of far-right, racist and Europhobic fringe parties. Tell us, Sir Robert, what would you call it now?

...?

[Fragony]

There are a number of things that I don't want the EU to interfere with, but regulations that already exist should be respected. Otherwise, what's the point?

Yes, what's the point? The SP are a creepy bunch but I am on the barricades with them on this one.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

why does britain need to be part of a federated europe?

This is exactly the question I want answered. It is also the reason I want the autocratic Commission eliminated. Then the EP would have to at least try to justify it's existence.

[Adrian II]

timothy garton-ash is an idiot who is hopelessly out of touch with british public opinion, so beware the veracity of his pontificating on britains place in the EU.

I'm afraid you're the one who is out of touch with Garton Ash, that's all there is to it. The gentlemen is an acknowledged expert when it comes to European history and the inner workings of European power. You, with all due respect, are not.

Garton Ash is on the mark when he states the following:

The fact that Cameron insists on withdrawing from a grouping that includes the parties of the German chancellor, the French president and the Italian and Polish prime ministers sends to them all, and to Washington, this message: prepare for the British again to be the spoilers, the naysayers, the foot-draggers of Europe.

I suppose that he, unlike some people who have an all too rosy view of British Conservatism, remembers what Euroskeptic foot-dragging amounts to. For instance to the attitude of a prime minister who, after the fall of the Berlin Wall, wanted to block German reunification because in her opinion the Iron Curtain had been 'a system under which we've lived quite happily for forty years'. I kid you not. The EU completely bungled the the post-1989 situation because of such foot-dragging which exasperated not just President George Bush senior, but many countries east of the former curtain. I remember Jorge Semprun, the then Spanish culture minister, pulling out his hair in frustration during yet another fruitless 'conference' on European unification where the British and French (unde the equally stupid Mitterrand) blocked any progress, muttering: 'They're not unifying it, they're splitting it up further.'

[Furunculus]

that is irrelevant to TGA being the british voice in europe as so many european papers treat him (there is a der-spiegal example in this very thread, and he was der-spiegals voice of britain during the euro elections).

expert historian he might be, but he is also a muppet who has been captured by the pernicious ideology Transnational progressivism, and he quite simply does not represent british public opinion when he mouths off about EU politics to foreign pundits.

he is also quite simply very wrong when states that the new party will be a political irrelevance, because under proportional representation that is totally untrue.

and this dodges the fact that the EPP, just like TGA, does not represent the world-view of conservative politics, so it is utter stupidity for the cons to remain as a minor partner in a federalist party.

[Adrian II]

[..] he quite simply does not represent british public opinion when he mouths off about EU politics to foreign pundits.

He doesn't claim to represent the British public at all. He couldn't, if only for the simple reason that British public opinion is divided.

he is also quite simply very wrong when states that the new party will be a political irrelevance, because under proportional representation that is totally untrue. and this dodges the fact that the EPP, just like TGA, does not represent the world-view of conservative politics, so it is utter stupidity for the cons to remain as a minor partner in a federalist party.

And this is where you totally misunderstand European politics. As Garton Ash states, the Conservatives are trading real influence for so-called representation by a bunch of racist flat earthers. Where's the gain? They are side-lining themselves in the role of dodgers, blockers and naysayers. They might be able to decide some swing vote or other, but that's all.

[Fragony]

Where's the gain? They are side-lining themselves in the role of dodgers, blockers and naysayers. They might be able to decide some swing vote or other, but that's all.

Eurocrat lingo, the only way to go is forward and you better not be left behind. A lot of people don't like the EU and where it's going, because, well that. And that group of people will grow because of, well that, people don't like it when their -percieved or not- common sense is insulted.

[Furunculus]

He doesn't claim to represent the British public at all. He couldn't, if only for the simple reason that British public opinion is divided.

And this is where you totally misunderstand European politics. As Garton Ash states, the Conservatives are trading real influence for so-called representation by a bunch of racist flat earthers. Where's the gain? They are side-lining themselves in the role of dodgers, blockers and naysayers. They might be able to decide some swing vote or other, but that's all.

he is treated as the voice of british reason in foreign press.

PR is powerbrokering with minor factions proppping up coalitions in return for concessions, they will do as well now as before, and at least be standing on a platform that their voters want.

[Adrian II]

Eurocrat lingo, the only way to go is forward and you better not be left behind. A lot of people don't like the EU and where it's going, because, well that. And that group of people will grow because of, well that, people don't like it when their -percieved or not- common sense is insulted.

Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.

[Fragony]

Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.

What challenge, the only challenge is what eurocrats have set out for theirselves. I don't like this leap of faith. Slapping an artificial entity on reality doesn't make reality any less complex. And then it happened, the incident on the Balkans. Europe is divided, but this time Europe has an army.

[Furunculus]

Going forward with integration is not lingo, it is the way of today's world. The world is growing more complex and interdependent by the week and political integration at various levels is the only way to meet this challenge. You are welcome to hide in a cave, which is where isolationists belong anyway, but the rest of us should look and go forward in the sense I mentioned.

why?

why is political integration necessary?

i can see that some might find it desirable, but it isn't in any way necessary now is it?

[Fragony]

why?

why is political integration necessary?

i can see that some might find it desirable, but it isn't in any way necessary.

Exactly, for eurocrats political integration has become the goal am sich. Why, uh, well because? It's good really trust me I'm a politician.

[Adrian II]

why?

why is political integration necessary?

I just told you.

Because this world is unforgiving, my friends. I am amazed that I have to remind someone like Fragony of that; I am supposed to be the dreamer, remember.

How many times have the Americans asked us to pull our weight in international affairs? And how many times did we have to answer that all we had was a dead weight, a community of lazy, inward-looking shopkeepers. And yes, the Napoleon reference is intentional.

What challenge, the only challenge is what eurocrats have set out for theirselves.

Oh haha, now Brussels is blamed for globalisation, Chinese expansion, the credit crunch, Pakistan's nuclear bomb and all the other challenges we face? Do you really think those challenges only exist in the minds of Brussels bureaucrats? This is getting weirder and weirder.

If this in indicative of the new formation in European politics, we should count ourselves lucky that they will be next year's wallpaper.

[Kralizec]

Yes, what's the point? The SP are a creepy bunch but I am on the barricades with them on this one.

If the SP, or any other party feels that the Netherlands shouldn't give a rats ass about European regulation then they ought to be consistent and say they intend to leave the EU entirely. Staying a member and acting as if you're not bound by past agreements (wich is pretty much what they're advocating) is like immigrating to a country and then breaking every law there whenever you feel like it.

The SP and the PVV are only against integration and "meddling from Brussels" if it doesn't suit their own agenda. Wilders said he would like to see something like the American 1st amendment to be adopted everywhere and I expect that they'll try to get something along those lines implemented now that they're in the EP, thus further limiting what national governments can do when it comes to free speech. If implemented, I'd expect Wilders to change his opinion as soon as he's told that it means he won't be allowed to ban the Qu'ran.

That is not common sense - it's ignorance at best, and hypocricy at worst.

[Furunculus]

I just told you.

Because this world is unforgiving, my friends. I am amazed that I have to remind someone like Fragony of that; I am supposed to be the dreamer, remember.

How many times have the Americans asked us to pull our weight in international affairs? And how many times did we have to answer that all we had was a dead weight, a community of lazy, inward-looking shopkeepers. And yes, the Napoleon reference is intentional.

ah, so its fear that drives you, well that is your fear, not mine.

and america has asked the UK to pull its weight repeatedly, and the UK always does. again, not our problem.

if you are hoping that an EUSSR will give you the collective backbone to face the 21st century then it is a forlorn hope, that backbone is found in self-confident sovereign nation states, who if they are sensible work together when beneficial to achieve a common end.

so again, why is political integration necessary (for the UK)?

[Fragony]

Oh haha, now Brussels is blamed for globalisation, Chinese expansion, the credit crunch, Pakistan's nuclear bomb and all the other challenges we face? Do you really think those challenges only exist in the minds of Brussels bureaucrats? This is getting weirder and weirder.

Makes you think I do. The EU will never be more than economic cooperation. As a market it can pull some weight, and speak with one voice $$ but not as a political entity. As a political entity it can limit our freedoms though, and I don't write blank cheques.

[Adrian II]

[..] that backbone is found in self-confident sovereign nation states, who if they are sensible work together when beneficial to achieve a common end.

That sounds just right for 1909, not for 2009.

And comparing my view of a democratic European Union to the USSR is just bad form, just like any silly comparison to Hitler who wanted to 'unite' Europe. It's flat-earthing of the sort that suits the Kaczyński brothers, not worthy of discussion.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Because this world is unforgiving, my friends.

Are you suggesting that the energy crisis, the food crisis, the resource crisis, the financial crisis, the recession, the Chinese bid for global dominance, the instable and changing Islamic world, the environmental crisis - that all these threaten the stability of the spoiled Europeans more than EU national-communistic superstatism?

Gah! No wonder you think mainstream social-democrats, centrists and democrat right are normal, and the Latvian SS clan are the fruitcakes. Sheesh.

I say let Denmark solve its own global recession crisis, and let Portugal solve their global recession crisis, and let us solve our global recession crisis.

You only have to go back to the newspaper cuttings from 2005, when Cameron first announced his leadership clincher, to see the horrified response of Timothy Kirkhope, the Tory leader in the European parliament, who is now charged with sewing together this ragbag. And ragbag is not my word but that of Sir Robert Atkins, the Conservative MEP for North West England, who in 2005 wrote to local Conservatives warning that the party would be left in "futile isolation", in the company of an "unappealing ragbag" of far-right, racist and Europhobic fringe parties. Tell us, Sir Robert, what would you call it now?

Can you answer this question, Furunculus?

Why did the Conservative leadership itself only four years ago (rightly) call the Polish nationalists unappealing ragbag, only to get in bed with them now?

Don't just call TGA an idiot - show us why he is an idiot for raising this question.