1.4 Siege Battles?

**Slaists** · 09-23-2009, 14:20

So, has anyone tested the new siege battles? I did not get any in my campaign last night just wondered if anyone has observed the AI behavior change and the effect of the wall targeting adjustments.

**Durallan** · 09-23-2009, 14:55

I didnt engage in any siege battles myself, but I had just made a rather smashing army ( As Prussia, 4 life guards, 2 grenadiers, 4x 24pnd cannons, 2x 24pnd howitzers, 4 light infantry, 3 horse guards) and sent it to take Poland (owned by austria) which was completely ungarrissoned, so it was a battle between me and armed mobs, I hit the surrender button, and they surrendered! so I took it without a fight.

**Slaists** · 09-23-2009, 15:03

Originally Posted by Durallan

I didnt engage in any siege battles myself, but I had just made a rather smashing army ( As Prussia, 4 life guards, 2 grenadiers, 4x 24pnd cannons, 2x 24pnd howitzers, 4 light infantry, 3 horse guards) and sent it to take Poland (owned by austria) which was completely ungarrissoned, so it was a battle between me and armed mobs, I hit the surrender button, and they surrendered! so I took it without a fight.

Yes, that I have seen too. Mobs now can surrender (it never happened in 1.3; only armies surrendered on rare occasions).

**Fisherking** · 09-23-2009, 19:12

I had one. They tried a few tricks to get over the wall and they also attacked a unit coming on the map.

The cannon on the walls seem to work better and they coordinated the attack on the walls from two directions at once. It just did them no good as they only had two infantry and 6 or 8 cavalry. So they ate it...

**Slaists** · 09-23-2009, 20:00

Originally Posted by Fisherking

I had one. They tried a few tricks to get over the wall and they also attacked a unit coming on the map.

The cannon on the walls seem to work better and they coordinated the attack on the walls from two directions at once. It just did them no good as they only had two infantry and 6 or 8 cavalry. So they ate it...

I wonder if star fort wall cannons finally are the meat grinders that they are supposed to be.

**hoom** · 09-25-2009, 03:12

How was the pathfinding on the walls?

**Boohugh** · 09-25-2009, 10:48

I played a quick custom siege battle yesterday as defender in an artillery fort (not a star one) just to check the AI. I didn't give any siege weapons to either side as I wanted to see how they interacted with the walls and I was pleasantly surprised.

When you deploy the troops on the walls, they still stand at an odd angle at first, but as soon as the enemy start approaching they'll form up into lines facing them and man the cannons (at a decent range now). The cannons themselves don't do much damage (they only fire round shot) but it's better than before and the units will fire their muskets when they get in range too. Unless you have units with weak morale, I think you'll always get them reaching the walls (I gave the AI a load of guard units so they all fought my line infantry on the walls and a couple even made it down to the inside).

The AI attacked from lots of angles by throwing up the grappling hooks and climbing, but some of them did still walk next to the walls to the far side from where they start, getting shot at the whole way. I won the battle fairly comfortably, but that was partly because I had more troops (I gave myself an army of British Line Infantry against a French army of various Guards units, so they had the quality and I had numbers). Can't remember the exact numbers but I think I had 1 unit rout with 2 men left and others had taken a bit of a mauling, with even numbers it could have been a little hairy if it was still their guards against my line. Overall, I'd say it's a huge improvement and makes siege battles playable now (whereas before they were basically a bit broken), but it's still not perfect.

Didn't have time to try with cannons, etc or see how the AI reacts when defending, but I'd suggest just trying a couple of custom siege battles to see the improvements for yourself.

**Slaists** · 09-25-2009, 14:56

I wonder if the flag mouse trap is still the most viable option of defending a fort...

**Sheogorath** · 09-25-2009, 22:33

Wall pathing is DEFINITELY better. Troops don't automatically try to go to get off the walls and get back on when told to move from one position to another. They seem to be faster than they were before as well.

They automatically make use of cannons without having to manually target units at long range. And cannons are actually somewhat effective.

It seems like musket range is still the same, though. Units have to be RIGHT at the foot of the wall for regular line infantry to fire at them.

Defenders on the wall seem to have a bonus, now. I had a unit of line infantry thrash some grenadiers (in AUM, so the grenadiers had equivalent numbers). Very good, I think.

Overall, it might actually be worth using forts now. The walls are defensible at last. You shouldn't need to rely on the flag-bait trick if you've got enough men to man the walls decently.

**al Roumi** · 09-30-2009, 14:29

Originally Posted by Sheogorath

It seems like musket range is still the same, though. Units have to be RIGHT at the foot of the wall for regular line infantry to fire at them.

Can anyone else confirm this? I had hoped they would have fixed musket fire as well as cannons...

**Fisherking** · 09-30-2009, 17:01

I can not really confirm that. I saw my guys firing before they were under the walls. I think it is working though they will shoot when the enemy is in places they can not hit them. Artillery will still try to shoot through the walls of you fort to engage the enemy also, so fire at will needs to be turned off for anything inside the fort.

**Sheogorath** · 09-30-2009, 19:15

It's a little exaggeration, but being on walls definitely cuts your guy's musket range. Or appears to, anyway.

**Zenicetus** · 09-30-2009, 19:48

Originally Posted by Sheogorath

It's a little exaggeration, but being on walls definitely cuts your guy's musket range. Or appears to, anyway.

I just had a big siege defense last night and it seemed that way to me too. If the game is calculating vertical as well as horizontal distance to target, without also factoring in gravity and flatter trajectory from firing from the walls, then that could explain it. Muskets have a pretty short range even when both units are at ground level. They should be getting a slight boost over the standard range when firing from the walls. Maybe this can be modded?

On the positive side, the enemy AI did try to climb the walls at three different sides of the fort instead of just a frontal assault. My units' cannon fire from the walls seemed fairly effective. It fired often and at good range, not causing any major damage, but the goal was to suppress morale so they'd break faster after they climb the walls.

On the negative side, the AI attack on my fort was poorly coordinated. The enemy infantry that reached the front of the fort first, started climbing right away, while their companion units were still slowly marching towards the back side of the fort. The multi-angle attack was good, but the timing of it was terrible. I was able to keep most of my forces at the front walls, long enough to start breaking the initial climbers. Then I diverted part of that force to the rear of the fort when the enemy finally showed up there. By the time the last group of climbers arrived, I had plenty of reserve strength to repel them. I was vastly outnumbered at the start of the battle, and the AI would have won, if all its troops had arrived at the top of the walls at the same time.

Maybe it's expecting too much for game AI to handle this kind of thing in real time, but poor coordination lost the battle. They had the numbers and unit quality to win. And that's the case for many different types of battles in the TW series.

Another AI problem: after the main force had been repelled, two infantry units recovered from the rout and decided to attack again, while the rest of their army was retreating off the map. Strategically, it would have been better to have them retreat with their companions to fight again another day. But these clowns tried climbing the walls again, at half unit strength all by themselves, and were left at the end with just a handful of shattered guys running off the field.

This is just one more example of how the AI still has trouble achieving a good balance between allowing individual initiative for a unit, which is sometimes important for units like cavalry, and controlling the army as a cohesive whole. It's been a problem ever since Rome:TW. The AI in ETW is better in maintaining cohesion at the start of a battle than it used to be. But once the situation gets chaotic, it goes into this "every unit for itself" mode instead of pulling the army back together for a second attack, or an organized retreat.

**al Roumi** · 10-01-2009, 11:56

Yeah, musket fore from the top of walls still is definitley not quite as you would expect it to be.

Last night I assaulted a militia held fort with militia and grenadiers (revoltionary army).

Firstly, there is still a massive blind spot on the corner of every fort which allows you to walk up to the wall completely un-threatened by defenders & cannons on the walls.

By performing a synchonised assault of the walls from opposite sides of the fort, i forced the defenders to retreat to the centre in defense of the flag while i claimed the walls.

My Militia stationed on the wall section near the gates were then able to fire down into the fort at defenders in between the walls and flag, but their range was not noticeably greater than that of the defenders who were on the ground. I'm not clear on how deadly my Militia's fire into the fort was as I also garrisoned the small tower building in the courtyard with grenadiers -so it's likely they did more killing (closer range, better accuracy).