River Crossings--how best to do it?

[Brian_]

Okay, this is the classic conundrum:

What is your preferred method of storming a river defense?

Specifically, where do you place your general/diamyo? Is he in the lead, somewhere right behind the leading troops, or does he remain on the safe side of the river?

And who are the best troops to take the initial brunt of the arrow fire that is inevitably rained down on the hapless leading troops?


Lastly, I'm trying to use my few and expensive Warrior Monks to their best advantage. As a side question, can anyone give me any tips to make the most of them, without decimating ther ranks unneccessarily?

Thanks guys.

[gollum]

Hello Brian_,
i think i partially answered in your other thread:

Originally posted by gollum
bridge battles are a grinder, make sure you bring along a few yari samurai (or naginata if you have them) to cross and fight first before sending in the shockers to rout the enemy. Send as single units of YS at first and once they are routed let them recover at the back and send in a new one. Back them up with arrow fire (or guns if you have them), the AI makes a large blob of his units in an effort to defend effectively and overwhelm whoever crosses, but this makes them vulnerable to your arrows. Shoot into the blod and although your YS will get casualties, the enemy's hopefully will be more, since you will be sending them one by one but the AI alltogether. In addition, as the AI foot troops will get tired from the running and fighting, your fresh units will last longer and longer against them, grinding them down due to fatigue even more.

At this stage that you feel the enemy has been grinded down enough, send in the shocks: WM, Naginata's or Nodachis and any YS units that have recovered. Hopefully the enemy arrows will have been depleted by now too. Send them all at once to get the number morale scales even and if possible rush them as far in after the bridge as possible to gain space so you can engage as many as possible simultaneously. If you wish to bring the general/daimyo, let him come last behind them, so he'll be the last to engage - all you need from him is his presence.

In the early stages of the game there are many exploiting tactics to win bridge battles easily against the AI; one of them is to cross with the Daimyo Hatamoto's and make a circle to the enemy backs attracting their attention, and at that particular moment make your yaris cross. Once the enemy returns and engages you, backstab their melee troops with the Daimyo. This works mostly very early in the game when the enemy troops are few (3-4). DOnt attempt it if your enemy has more than that and you have no heir, because it may take you another life to succeed.

The monks need to be screened by missile troops gunners and archers; because of their vulnerability to missiles and speed you can keep them a little further back from the missile troops than other units.

While engaging, you can combine them in a staggered formation with Yari Samurai (and also Naginata although they make the charge too slow and hence you risk being shot) and have the Yari's run in front to take any volleys during the charge while teh Monks trail behind and only in the last moments slow/stop the Yari's and let the Monks overtake them and charge the enemy troops. Yari's then can engage any horsemen, guard flanks, plug gaps or even flank.

STW rewards good match ups between unit types and the AI is fairly competent doing that, so make sure you match your monks against the enemy's toughest heavy infantry or if there is none, against their Yari Samurai that ensures optimal results.

The best way to deploy them though is in forest areas and hence in forest heavy maps.

[Brian_]

STW rewards good match ups between unit types and the AI is fairly competent doing that, so make sure you match your monks against the enemy's toughest heavy infantry or if there is none, against their Yari Samurai that ensures optimal results.

I've often wondered about this...specifically, I've wondered if perhaps it makes sense to purposely try and rout the weakest unit(s) in any given battle--maybe by attacking a flank--in the hopes of spreading panic throught the enemy army and causing their early retreat.

Do you think there is any benefit to that sort of strategy?

[caravel]

I've often wondered about this...specifically, I've wondered if perhaps it makes sense to purposely try and rout the weakest unit(s) in any given battle--maybe by attacking a flank--in the hopes of spreading panic throught the enemy army and causing their early retreat.

Do you think there is any benefit to that sort of strategy?

Yes and yes. A chain rout can be triggered by routing the weaker units. The best targets are Samurai Archers and Yari Samuari - or really any of the lowest honour Samurai units (especially partial units with low honour).

Ignore any Ashigaru, because routing them will only affect the morale of other Ashigaru units (Yari Ashigaru and Arquebusiers/Musketeers) - unless you are setting out to rout those units of course. It's a good idea to check the number of little banners on each unit, as this shows the honour level of that unit. The lower the honour the easier they will be to break.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

There's a couple cheap tactics:

1) Bribe the enemy army.
2) At least in some versions, you can bring a couple stacks worth of troops, start with 8 ashigaru in your army and withdraw them. Depending on the version, their reinforcements can start on the other side of the river.
3) Charge your daimyo or some cavalry over and draw away the enemy
4) Send over a single inf unit (either cheap or heavily armored) and let the AI wast there arrows on it. They will also usually charge an infantry unit at it which you can shoot down with your archers.

Or you can get about 10 units of decent honor yari samurai, a couple archers, and maybe some naginata/monks and send them into the meat grinder. Heavy casualties, but it makes them into a nice challenge. If you have naginata, send them first, if you have monks, try and wait until they are out of arrows.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Brian_
I've often wondered about this...specifically, I've wondered if perhaps it makes sense to purposely try and rout the weakest unit(s) in any given battle--maybe by attacking a flank--in the hopes of spreading panic throught the enemy army and causing their early retreat.

Do you think there is any benefit to that sort of strategy?

Yes but only if the enemy has less chances to rout your own weak units before you rout his first. This is when the game is played at its best and both armies look like judo fighters that try to unbalance the other... the good tactician calculates his risks and chances that say the enemy flank will rout sooner than his own; this then tips the scales in his favor outright or simply allw him time to srengthen the area in crisis with his victorious troops ensuring a complete rout...

In fact this was the exact strategy that was applied by Alexander the Great at Gaugamela, in which he weaken one of the flanks and set it in the defensive, while he strengthyened the other. He was counting on winning the battle on the centre/right flank fast enough to reinforce the left one before collapse. The weakend flank (the left) was "refused" ie it was set on a sloping-tapered "/" shape in order to help avoid flanking andfast collapse.

The brilliance of TW is that it enables all this to come to life in a pc game. The engine behind STW/MTW is nothing short of stunning and a major achievement.

In TW multiplayer its very common for both sides to have won the battle in one sector and the whole to be decided by a final engagement of teh surviving units.

[gollum]

Regarding the use of Monks,

also remember to use the terrain; crucial features such as slopes and forests. You can aim to maneuver in such a manner that the melee engagement happens just outside of a forest or a few metres back from the top of a slope. This means that while your monks cover the distance to engage, they are partially protected from the terrain.

In order to achieve this, one of the tactics you can use is to split your army in 2 groups with a major one engaging frontally, while the "Monk" one approaches from the side that has the natural terrain advantage.

However try to practice such tactics when you outnumber the enemy, because otherwise your mainstay may be forced to face the full wrath of teh enemy army before your assault team reaches it if the AI discovers the weakness and goes for a straight frontal assault.

By the way this is exactly what happened in the 4th battle of Kawanakajima - the Takeda split their forces and the Uesugi realised it and attacked the closest one that Shingen happened to be in.

As is said by Sun Tzu:

"When you outnumber 2:1= divide"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZA-gqJL9Is

[caravel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZA-gqJL9Is

Thanks, I haven't seen that for years.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes. The only time I charge the enemy head on is if I have a bunch of monks and don't feel like taking the time to manuever.

Usually on offense you can shift the AI off it's hill, move it around, and generally disorganize it. Defense is the same.

A good start to a battle is to triple the first AI unit, one infantry to the front, one flanker, and a cavalry unit behind. Hard to explain exactly, but usually you can crush or rout a few units before their whole army has engaged. With the low morale armies the AI usually has this can start a chain rout, or at least give you superior infantry numbers. Picking out one or two units to focus your arrows on weakens them to the point where the will rout quickly. Manuevering so that the routing units flee through the enemy can be huge (depends on terrain though). Usually AI armies have 3-5 archers, send one cavalry after them, keep him switching targets so that they keep running backwards instead of targetting your troops.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Thanks, I haven't seen that for years.

It's an epic video, but during the battle scenes I'm always thinking "what is this guy doing?? Why is this unit of muskets charging the rear of the enemy?"

[caravel]

It's an epic video, but during the battle scenes I'm always thinking "what is this guy doing?? Why is this unit of muskets charging the rear of the enemy?"

[gollum]

Originally posted by Sasaki Kojiro
...but during the battle scenes I'm always thinking "what is this guy doing?? Why is this unit of muskets charging the rear of the enemy?"

yes - they probably stappled together videos of battle gameplay and set the slider to fast to make it look more dynamic; no-one could have told the player's shortcomings at the time anyway.

The version shown is an intermediate build - not the earliest i've seen (this was one in an interview/special from a German website back in 1998-9) but earlier than the one that was published in July 2000. You can tell by the cursor and the unit cards.

In that German preview/special the user could shape a circular formation with the units, a feature that obviously was discarded, but a trace of it remains nonetheless in STW v1.0-1.12. This is the (set) circular formations of defending AI archers around castle gates.

PS And since we touched it some more material:

Afan made video showcasing the virtues of our beloved (with better tactics!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S6Dtt87Z4k

Some early screenshots:
http://www.allgame.com/game.php?id=23533&tab=screen

A pre-release interview and screenshots (with a picture of CA at the time in page 2?!):
http://www.strategy-gaming.com/inter...al_war_1.shtml

A Mike Simpson interview about the making of STW:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2007...gun-total-war/

Therein he mentions that he was involved in "Lords of the Rising Sun" for Amiga by the legendary bioware; and certainly LOTRS has had aesthetic as well as gameplay influence in STW:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0U7...eature=related

Notice the intro scene: does that rider pose and sashimono(flag) waving in the wind remind anything familiar?

The game also had a split between "strategy" and "tactical battles" as well as ninja attacks!

Other influences on STW, were clearly the legendary Nobunaga's Ambition of Koei and Waterloo, the old game depicting the famous battle.

[ReluctantSamurai]

What is your preferred method of storming a river defense?

Depends on whether I'm playing a "serious" campaign, or just one for kicks. By serious I mean no fantasy units, and no geisha.

The "kicks" way is definitely more fun..... My 'bridge-busters' in this version has a Kensei general, 6-8 BFN, and two musket. I pick the worst weather possible, heavy fog being the best. The BFN go to the bridge first, the Taisho & teppo stay out of sight, for the moment. The BFN then cross en-masse and take up ranged positions without opening fire. When all is ready, the muskets and Taisho step into view and take up positions while the BFN open fire. When my Taisho steps onto the bridge any units that attempt to attack are taken under fire from the teppo. Meanwhile the BFN are tearing up the enemy archers in close combat. If I get the heavy fog, and there's little to no enemy cavalry, My Taisho can simply stand on the bridge and smoke his favorite cigar (did the Portuguese or Dutch ever bring those to Japan?) until it's all over.

But seriously, YS or YA preferably with armor upgrades go in singly at first to draw enemy foot troops into archer/teppo range. Once your unit routs and the enemy units turn their backs to return to their original positions, they take devastating rear fire from your archer/teppo units. A few rounds of this and the shock troops hit the bridge. I use Nodachi because they are a bit faster than the WM (actually I hardly ever use WM anymore.....) and have a higher initial charge/melee bonus, IIRC. Behind the shock troops come a unit of NC also for their line-busting properties, which I prefer more than HC. The YC come last to chase down routers.

In any case, I've found bridge-busting to be a tempermental thing........I've lost battles I thought I would "easily" win, and won ones that I thought I would lose And there are definitely times when you need to wear down the defense before you can take a river province. Don't be afraid to retreat your remaining troops when the situation becomes impossible. You can always return the next season....

[Martok]

Using cavalry to lure the enemy out of their defensive positions and across the bridge into the waiting arms spears of my soldiers remains my preferred tactic. When this doesn't work, however, I then usually use a combination of YS and No-Dachi while wearing down the defenders with arrow fire. Once they're weak enough, I send a fresh unit of ND and/or WM to spearhead (what is hopefully) the final assault.


Of course, as ReluctantSamurai noted, continuing to press the attack is not always possible and/or wise. There's been occasions where I decide to withdraw and take another crack at the bridge in another season or two. That being said, I'm often too proud to do this.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

, My Taisho can simply stand on the bridge and smoke his favorite cigar (did the Portuguese or Dutch ever bring those to Japan?) until it's all over.

Perfect

[gollum]

Samurai smoked pipes actually:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3220/...581a3ab2a6.jpg

[ReluctantSamurai]

I'll have to make sure my big guy has one of those the next time.....

[Brian_]

So today, I had the services of Takeda Shingen (level 6) leading my armies in a river assault in Musashi. I waited until it was heavily raining before trying the method that was suggested here of sending some cavalry units across, hoping to draw off some of the enemy. Alas, the one unit that got across failed to distract the enemy (who were quite numerous) and the others never got any farther than the other side of the bridge before they were set upon by hordes of pissed off Hojo.

I sent in every footsoldier I had and It turned into a bloodbath, eventually resulting in the death of Shingen. Well, you can imagine what happened next. My elite army was quickly routed and sent packing back across the border.

So I'm still trying to figure out how I could have gone wrong here. I think the initial numbers were about a 3:2 ratio (mine to theirs) although I had a significant morale advantage (6 to 3).

Question 1; was my morale advantage negated by the heavy rain?

Question 2; was my numerical advantage too small to be enough for a bridge assault?

Lastly, how close does a general have to be to influence his troops?

[gollum]

Hello Brian_,

Rain does not influence morale directly, but it does influence fatigue, especially heavily armored units like say naginata. Fatigue in turn affects morale. For the attacker of a bridge, rain provides missile cover, as enemy projectiles are less accurate, are fewer by appearances and carry less momentum. However you need to carefully manage the fatigue of your troops, avoid running them too much in heavy rain. Run only after you raech the bridge and in order to cross it. In addition your own missiles are also less accurate, so teh tactics i described ealrier like shooting at the enemy blob that defends in melee are far less effective too.

I dont think that your numerical advantage was small, just that you need more experience in playing bridge assaults.

remember that i also warned you that:

Originally posted by gollum
This (trying to get the attention of enemy troops with your cavalry) works mostly very early in the game when the enemy troops are few (3-4).

Its hard to pull off if the enemy has more than 4-5 units, as he can chase down your cavalry and guard the bridge at the same time with the units he has.

You can set up custom battles of bridge assault to practice.

In them try to:

1). Wear the enemy down with YariSam/naginata send in one by one (that is one alone,it gets routed then send next in while rallying and resting the one that just fought) while position your missile as close to the bank as possible to shoot the enemy melee defenders as they come close to the river to engage your one crossing unit. Do this until you feel that the enemy melee units have been depleted and fatigued and until enemy missiles have emptyied their quivers. Depleted units of YariSam/naginata of yours need to be rallied and rested to participate as last reinforcements to the final push.

2). Once you feel the tipping point is reached, send in your assault troops, Warrior Monks, Naginata(fresh) and Nodachis (whichever of these you have). Dont send them all at once but in a queue; units that overlap are given stat penalties by the TW engine for not having enough space to yield their weapons. If your enemy gives you space in front of his bank, take it, as this means that you can engage more than one of your units or even find space to flank. As a last resort send in the depleted units that fought in stage 1). and/or your archers if you feel that they can rout the enemy.

3). During stage 2). keep the general at your side of the bank next to the bridge entry and do not cross with him unless the enemy army is routing. This distance is enough for the general to make his presence felt and be safe at the same time. During stage 1). keep him well back out of enemy arrow/bullet range. Even if your army routs in phase 2). if the general is on your bank you have a chance to rally your army and counterattack the enemy if they had crossed the river. However if you engage your general in an nsuccesful bridge assault you will ost likely lose him, which is almost a guarantee of failure.

Practice this approach and slowly but steadily you will do much better. Remember that shooting the enemy is as big part of the art of assault as it is for the defending AI. Draw them close with your single units and target with all your archers one by one enemy melee troops. When your front two archers deplete their arrows, send them in teh back and bring two brand new ones and again send in a melee unit to repeat. Do not let the archers at fire at will because they tend to shoot even if an enemy unit is at the edge of their range. Control their volleys and order them to shoot when the enemy is incoming (or outgoing) but well in range to ensure max kills.

Good luck!

[Brian_]

Some good lessons to be learned. I shall endeavor to follow your advice.

[gollum]

I forgot to mention that if you have no other assault troops, Yari Samurai will have to fit the bill.

[Brian_]

Using the piecemeal approach, I was able to successfully bleed the enemy down without undue risk to my own troop's morale. A bloody battle against a fanatically determined foe but I was victorious, nonetheless.

Many thanks, Gollum!

[gollum]

You're welcome Brian_, in time you'll get better and be able to add-subtract on this basic approach, as well as learn to play the details better and exploit the chances you are given by the AI.

have fun!