How best to deal with the Mongol horde?

[Brian_]

Hey Gents,

I'm playing the Japanese side in the Mongol invasion and I'm having a tough time of it.
It seems the Mongols are both brave and savvy and I'm not sure how best to use my assets (few as they are) to my advantage.

As a general rule, it seems wise when being attacked by cavalry, one should endevour to stay in the forests, hoping to negate their mounted advantage. But the Mongols seem to know this, and they are reluctant to enter the woods until they've reduced my numbers through missle fire. I'm further hampered by a lack of really solid units of my own while his appear to be fearless by comparison.

Is there some way of countering their advantages? Shold I try and produce a disproportionate amount of cavalry troops of my own?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Ashigaru crossbowmen are vital. Spear units as well, and no dachi to beat their infantry. Archers can be valuable too. Yes, stick to the forest, and make the most out of the early bridge defense you have in chikugo (crossbowmen crucial).

As I recall, it's possible to contain the mongols to kyushu for the most part.

[Brian_]

Ashigaru crossbowmen are vital.

Why do you say that? They seem quick to panic and to be honest, I haven't been putting too much faith in them.

As I recall, it's possible to contain the mongols to kyushu for the most part.

That's my strategy for now too.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Why do you say that? They seem quick to panic and to be honest, I haven't been putting too much faith in them.

They do good damage, are expendable, easy to train, and their ammo lasts for a really long time. Just have to support them so the don't rout.

That's my strategy for now too.

You might be in for a surprise...

[gollum]

Yes yes, to Sasaki you listen.

Beware of the Horde and the aces it may still have. You need mostly Yari Samurai, Sam.Archers and most of all the ahistorical crossbow ashigarus - very little nodachis and very little Yari cavalry.

[ReluctantSamurai]

While certainly not the only way to deal with them, perhaps there is something here that might help:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112391

...and here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=99795

Your cavalry will never be as good as the Mongols and I recommend you don't try head-to-head with them unless you have overwhelming numbers. If you want an idea of just how bad it is, look at the unit stats for both Mongol Light & Mongol Heavy Cavalry as compared to your YC (I've forgotten the exact folder you find it).

Much of this whole campaign is ahistorical concerning unit selection including even Yari Samurai and Yari Cav which, I believe, were not present as well as the aforementioned Ashi X-bowmen.

But nonetheless, this campaign can be a fun distraction when you get tired of the usual campaigning. Doing it from the Mongol side is tough.......................

[gollum]

The only historical units for the japanese side would be Samurai Archers, Cavalry archers and Warrior Monks actually, which strangely are left out, and most likely Naginata infantry.

The mongol cavalry units are indeed very powerful and this more than makes up for their mediocre infantry.

[caravel]

I found the MI campaign to be a bit of a joke to be honest and the Hojo campaign to be insanely difficult, whereas the Mongol campaign is probably the easiest ever. It's only battles and with the overpowered cavalry and horse archers it becomes a bit repetitive after a while despite being quite entertaining initially. I've found that the best strategy is to use the Koreans as your defensive units and attack with the mongol units alone. Of the Korean units, the guardsmen and skirmishers are quite capable. As the mongols you need to do as much damage per season. So raid as many provinces as you can reach, even if you have to abandon them the following season.

[Brian_]

Beware of the Horde and the aces it may still have. You need mostly Yari Samurai, Sam.Archers and most of all the ahistorical crossbow ashigarus - very little nodachis and very little Yari cavalry.

So do you think it's a mistake to try and build up higher quality units?

My impression is that the Mongols possess many of their own and the reason my armies are getting wiped out (despite my having higher ranking generals) is due to the qualitative advantage of their troops.

[gollum]

Originally posted by Brian_
So do you think it's a mistake to try and build up higher quality units?

It is because by the time they will be ready you will have lost the campaign. You need cheap, easily accessible units that actually happen to be the ones that are most useful too.

...and the reason my armies are getting wiped out (despite my having higher ranking generals) is due to the qualitative advantage of their troops.

The reason your armies are wiped out is because you are not playing
catenaccio as you should. Use remorslessly the forest and high ground to pound the Horde with missiles and counter their cavalry raids on your line with spears. Repeat until their numbers are whittled down wave after wave. Do not leave your entrenched positions for no reason to save on fatigue - and also because of the way the reinforcements system works in MI you cannot fully depend on them as they can appear on any side of the map and be cut down before they reach your lines. When you take the offensive use your army in the same way; a solid formation of spears backing up the missiles; approach the Mongols shoot them, they'll retreat then appraoch and shoot them some more. Repeat until you corner them and defeat them. By the way all battles against the Mongols are in the same tune, and hence the campaign tends to be a bit repetitive.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Don't underestimate ashigaru crossbowmen:



(From my campaign story in one of the threads linked above)

[Brian_]

Wow! Those are some serious results.

[Brian_]

By the way all battles against the Mongols are in the same tune, and hence the campaign tends to be a bit repetitive.

By that, do you mean to say they use the same tactics on the battlefield?

[ReluctantSamurai]

(From my campaign story in one of the threads linked above)

I know that hill.......................

Something to the Hojo advantage is that you can be pretty sure where the Mongols will land.....the western provinces of Kyushu, and Honshu. You cannot prevent them, and will spend the early part of the campaign simply reacting to them.

Use/create centers of resistance and create a net of ports that allow you to shift your troops quickly to contain the landings. I found Aki to be a good place for this, as well as Satsuma. Some players make a stand in Hizen. I chose not to in my campaign because if you lose that battle, the whole of Kyushu is as good as lost.

Don't be afraid to be coldly calculating. You must inflict heavy casualties on the Mongols even if it means sacrificing an entire army to do so (as long as you can follow up a defeat with a quick counter-attack that finishes them). Do this especially in bridge provinces, where you have a high probability at causing casualties.

And as has already been mentioned, quantity is more important than quality here. That shouldn't mean that you can't reserve a well-led, experienced army for the tough battles, but early on, don't expect many survivors

And it goes without saying, use your Daimyo well......he's verrrry important for this campaign.

By that, do you mean to say they use the same tactics on the battlefield?

Yeah.......Mongol Light Cavalry, then more Mongol Light Cavalry, and then even more Mongol Light Cavalry..........

They move quickly into shooting range, pepper the hell out of you, and quickly move out of range if your spears (or anything else) get too close. And if you over-extend, they'll turn and charge you

I had a good example of that in my camp....and I lost a 4-star general (and heir) in the process

[gollum]

originally posted by Brian_
By that, do you mean to say they use the same tactics on the battlefield?

Yes. There is an almost single optimal way to deal with the problem given the stats of the Jap and Mongol units. The Japanese campaigns make for more varied tactics imo, and hence they are more interesting for me.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Some players make a stand in Hizen. I chose not to in my campaign because if you lose that battle, the whole of Kyushu is as good as lost.

Hizen makes for a good stand, but only if you want a short campaign:



If you want more of a challenge it's better to let the mongols get established, or at least some reinforcements. Their starting army is not that good, no mongol heavy cav.

[Brian_]

They move quickly into shooting range, pepper the hell out of you, and quickly move out of range if your spears (or anything else) get too close. And if you over-extend, they'll turn and charge you

Yes indeed. And I have yet to come up with a really effective counter strategy. I try hiding in the woods but they whittle my numbers down with missle fire. They seem to know better than to enter the forests and engage my troops face to face. And of course, if I attack with spear troops, they simply run out of range (and quickly, too!)

I've had mixed results using Yari cavalry against them. But I think the problem there is that I simply don't have the numbers to try and take on an entire army of Mongol mounted troops. But I can't help but think that the added flexibility of Yari cavalry is the secret to denying the Mongols their unique advantage...

Or perhaps using more missle based troops of my own to counter their own is best. I'm still coming to grips with this foe.

[gollum]

Take 4-6 crossbows, 2-4 archers and lots of spears - one Yari cavalry and one or two nodachi is more than enough for battles that you are heavily outnumbered.

You need to coordinate your crossbow volleys. Set your crossbows in hold positon/hold formation and toggle fire at will off. Once the enemy is in range for good toggle fire at will on. When they retreat return to fire at will off. Group your crossbows (and your archers in another group) and use your ammo and volleys wisely, in order to minimise ammo waste and maximise casualties. Defend the crossbow line with spears.

Practice this and in time you'll see how the horde is a paper tiger in reality - you can get them out of Kyushu in 3 to 5 years in expert - and if lucky even earlier occasionaly.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The morale is the weakpoint of the mongol troops. In the battle above where I had the high kills with the crossbowmen, the mongols kept routing when I focused my fire on the lead unit, then they would rally and march back and I would rout them again.

[gollum]

I forgot to mention you can concentrate fire on the leader/general as Sasaki suggests - this you can do without using the toggle fire at will - just order your group of crossbows and/or archers to target him - iirc in STW the morale loss from losing the general is permanent unlike MTW. This makes the Mongol army rout and rally, rout and rally from your coordinated mass volleys, and that kills them in terms of fatigue. Remember however when he is moving out of range to cancel orders for your missiles (backspace) otherwise they will follow him to shoot at him.

[Brian_]

The morale is the weakpoint of the mongol troops. In the battle above where I had the high kills with the crossbowmen, the mongols kept routing when I focused my fire on the lead unit, then they would rally and march back and I would rout them again.

Yes, indeed. I often overlook the value of killing the lead unit during engagements.

[Yesugey]

* The quickest answer is definitely Crossbows. Yes they are cowards, but Mongol Light Cavalry are prefer to encounter them with their arrows instead of charging them, which is a deadly mistake.

* Everyone suggests spearmen, and its wrong. Mongols are so fearsome, so even your samurai are running away. se them only when they trained with palace morale, or in the woods.

* Everyone suggests no cavalry, and its also wrong. You see, fearsome Mongol Ligh Cav. are simply a Naginata Cavalry with bows and arrows. Yes they massacre your Pikemen samurai, but Yari Cavalry and even Horse archers can hold them.

* Use bridges carefully. Only way to stop the Mongols is give them heavy casualties. (since you cant beat them on the field) Once Light Cav. gone, Mongol horde will be like any other army.

* Use Shinobi and Ninjas. Specially lots of shinobi is deadly effective on Mongols, because they know how to conquer, just dont know how to use it.

I successfully drove back Mongol Horde few times myself, and xbows played the most important role. But if you want to win more manly way, use lots of Yari Cavalry and Archers.

[Togakure]

It's been some time since I played a Mongol campaign as the Japanese. I've only used ashi CBs to maintain troop parity on the strat map, tactical distraction and fodder. I'm not disputing their effectiveness when used as described; I just don't enjoy a game where ranged tactics dominate so much, particularly against a foe like the Mongols. But that's just me--I should use them, I just don't like them and it's not fun for me to play that way.

I try to contain the horde on Kyushu before their third landing. The campaign becomes much more manageable if this is achieved. I start building ports in Aki, Kawachi, and Hitachi immediately in order to establish rapid troop transport to the contested regions. I immediately start moving all available troops west except for a small group which I use to subdue rebellion in the far east (Echizen and Mutsu/Dewa iirc). The key points of resistance are Aki and the provinces surrounding it, Iyo on Shikoku with Awa and Kawachi (river provinces) as fall back defensive positions.

Any troops trained in Yamashiro receive an honor bonus--and it's the only province that can produce +3 Yari Samurai (eventually). Just don't forget to build enough cavalry units (in Yamashiro or Shinano for the honor bonus; you don't want to dilute your command units' honor level too much) to keep your command units at full strength--you don't want to lose your key taishos. If you use Shinano, remember that it's land-locked and you'll need a port in a neighboring province to deploy newly built cavalry quickly (same with Yamashiro, hence a port in Kawachi).

I find it important to engage with a high-honor taisho in command whenever possible. This bolsters morale for all troops sufficiently to maintain form in most situations, provided I attack as an army and remember that morale is always the primary weapon in a TW game. One of the major weaknesses of the invading army is that it lacks good leaders initially, and the nature/strength of its units lend to getting spread out (making the morale weapon easier to use, provided you have trained units that can deliver it, and can use them well on the field).

As most know, Mongol reinforcements are based on the value of the territories they conquered since their last reinforcements arrived (less expenditures on border watch towers and forts). If contained on Kyushu long enough, Japan's production kicks in and Japan's native might can be brought to bear. Restrict enemy reinforcements; increase the rate at which Japanese reinforcements are trained and deployed, etc., etc..

One thing I don't like about the campaign is that the landings seem scripted when it comes to where and when subsequent Mongol reinforcements arrive. After you've played a few campaigns, you can pretty much guess where they will land and when with reasonable accuracy. This makes it much easier to neutralize the landings, provided you haven't allowed them to take new provinces.

From a strategic point of view, obviously it's best to wipe them out before they get a foothold. This can be achieved in a few years (I've never won the opening Hizen battles ... has anyone else?)--before the third wave of reinforcements, but as Sasaki mentioned, this results in a fast, furious game using pretty much the units on the board at the beginning. It's tough, but not impossible.

To summarize the things I try to do: contain expansion (number of reinforcements), establish rapid troop transportation quickly ("sending" and "receiving" ports in smart places), establish the ability to train complimentary troops rapidly (usually one per type per turn, with one training center per troop type, two for spears and archers), organize into balanced armies, and use them well under good leadership on the field (tactics on the field--what makes STW so fun imo).

Heh: basically just play STW well, with a sound strategy and effective tactics. But if I'd just wrote that it'd be a pretty boring post.