New to the game

[rattenfleisch]

Hello everybody!

I am a long time lurker and finally decided to join this nice forum.
My first total war game was Medieval, which I unfortunately lost years ago - years I spent kicking the incredible stupid ass of the Rome and Medieval2 AI. As I heard that the Shogun AI is very good I decided to give it a go.

After days of waiting my copy finally arrived. And I immediately stumbled into the first problem.
I have installed the ShogunWv1.02_Euro patch, but in the game options it still says 1.00.
Is it because I use the ShogunM.exe to start the game? Unfortunately the ShogunW.exe doesn't work, telling me that the disc is not in the drive. Does anyone else have this problem? I am afraid it has something to do with my version of Shogun from Sold Out Software.
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31519W%2B3lkL._SL160_.jpg
This is the only reason I can think of, as I had something similar with my copy of Daikatana, which was also a budget version rereleased by some third company.

Any ideas?

Oh, and sorry for my English. Maybe it is hard to understand sometimes, as I am not a native speaker. Feel free to play the grammar nazi and correct me if you want, I would appreciate it. I can only learn from my mistakes if I know that they are mistakes.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Go to "custom battles" and see if the map "ironing board" is available for selection. If it is then the patch has installed correctly.

Is your username "rat flesh"??

[rattenfleisch]

The ironing board is indeed available. Thank you for your help.
I hope that the patch also fixed the reinforcement bug I heard about correctly.

And yes, "rattenfleisch" means "rat flesh" in English. Did you figure it out because of the similarity or do you have some knowledge of German?
That name goes back to my Soldier of Fortune 2 multiplayer days, years ago. It was the first name that came to my mind as I was not a member of any multiplayer community or forum since then. Guess I'm not the most sociable person ever.
But who knows, maybe the .org is a place where I will stay for a while...

I think I will start my Shimazu campaign soon. Expect to see a little noob AAR (I think it may be interesting to see how someone who easily beats the Rome and Medieval2 AI on "Very Hard" while asleep gets eaten alive by Shogun on "normal") and lots of questions appearing in this thread soon.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Ich habe ein bisschen Deutsch...very little.

Shimazu on normal should not be too hard, maybe trie Mori on expert

[rattenfleisch]

The battle AI will be though enough for me from what I've read here anyway. So I decided to try an easy faction first. Shimazu is recommended in one of the stickied threads, so it may be a good idea to start with them. Hojo and Uesugi are also mentioned, so maybe I should consider them as well...

In Rome and Medieval 2 I rely on a lot of archers, not only to kill but to force the AI to react. As the AI in those games isn't able to do that properly, I can tear the enemy units apart with ease.
I don't know if this will work that well in Shogun. So the Uesugi archer bonus is maybe not as good as I thought.
Speaking of archers: Archers are not very effective in this game, right? The performance of my archers in the third tutorial mission was terrible. I ran around the whole map, shooting at the enemy as often as I could and wasn't able to kill a lot of his men. Well, maybe they were just heavy armored elite units or something like that...

Hojo starts with enemies on every border, so maybe that is not a very good idea for the first game.
Probably a position in the corner like Shimazu has is better.
On the other hand I am quite a blitzer in the other TW games and usually expand rapidly in every direction possible. But I am not sure how well this will work in Shogun...

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Archers are deadly in shogun, the tutorial example is not that great...but remember that the archers are samurai, and can do decent damage in melee.

[Wishazu]

Archers are excellent all round troops in Shogun, as Sasaki pointed out, they are Samurai. I always have at least 3-4 units minimum in every army, even when I`m using guns on my front line.

Shimazu is a good first faction to play as, they are relatively isolated and once you have mopped up the Imagawa you only need to expand in one direction.

For a challenge try Imagawa or Oda on the harder difficulties, you will feel alot more pressure than you will be used to from the other TW games you have played.



P.S I almost forgot, Welcome to the Dojo.

[rattenfleisch]

Yesterday I reinstalled the game to have a closer look at the files. The "Ironing Board" is available even without patch. The ShogunW.exe is not, it seems it came from the patch last time. That would explain why it didn't work.
So... does that mean Shogun Gold is not the same as Shogun WE? The latter uses the ShogunW.exe as far as I know, while Gold seems to use the ShogunM.exe like Mongol Invasion.
Apart from the used .exe, is Shogun Gold 1.0 identical as Shogun WE 1.02?

Archers are deadly in shogun, the tutorial example is not that great...but remember that the archers are samurai, and can do decent damage in melee.

Yeah, I had to learn that the hard way. Ouch.

Shimazu is a good first faction to play as, they are relatively isolated and once you have mopped up the Imagawa you only need to expand in one direction.

For a challenge try Imagawa or Oda on the harder difficulties, you will feel alot more pressure than you will be used to from the other TW games you have played.

Sounds interesting. I am tempted to start another campaign, but I have to be careful. Usually I have around 4 or 5 campaigns running simultaneously. Not only in Rome and Medieval 2, but in other games like Baldur's Gate as well.
But this time I will try to finish the Shimazu campaign before I start another one...



Today I started my Shimazu campaign on normal difficulty. I was confronted with a few problems and instead of just asking the questions, I decided to put them into a little AAR.

This is the first time I play Shogun (not counting the tutorial). Welcome to:
Shogun - Total Noob


I construct a port in Satsuma and a farmland upgrade in Buzen, as that is my richest farmland province. In Bungo I build a castle, in the other provinces either farmlands or watch towers.


The next turn my Daimyo attacks Chikugo with two Yari Samurai and Samurai Archers.


For some strange reason the enemy placed his units far away from the bridge. Doesn't look very smart to me. Does the difficulty level improve the AI?


The enemy YS engages one of my units as soon as it reached his side of the river. I flank him with my other unit.


The bridge is clear, so my Daimyo attacks his archers. They retreat, but for some strange reason he can't pursue them. Is this a bug? Sometimes something like that occurs in Rome and Medieval 2 as well.


My first battle is won. Considering the odds it went pretty bad though.


Ah, money. I was already wondering why I received no income in the last turns. But then I saw it: "Annual Income". I have to get used to this, but I think it makes for a quite interesting gameplay.


The rebels invade Bungo (and destroy my castle... great ). That was not expected. It seems the rebel AI in Shogun is quite aggressive.
Do the rebels act like any other faction or do they only go after really easy targets?


Chikuzen falls without a battle.


It seems I wasn't keeping track of the loyalty in my provinces.
I quickly gathered troops to defend the province, but the loyalists decided to retreat next turn.


A Takeda Emissary? I grant him an audience and... what is this?
Wow. A video? That is awesome. Not as complex as the Rome and Medieval 2 diplomacy, but the atmosphere of the whole game is just fantastic.


Next turn I invade Hizen.


The enemy units are here and in the forest to the east.


As the enemy archers are exposed, I charge them with my Daimyo as he is the only cavalry unit I have at the moment.
The incredible smart AI decided to rescue the few remaining archers with... more archers. Come on, the spearmen are right behind them. They could easily reach and kill my Daimyo with their spears.


The enemy finally sends his spearmen. Time to disengage... disengage... DISENGAGE! Helloooo? Daimyo? Are you there? Disengage. Halt. Disengage. Go there. Or there. Anywhere. Are you deaf?


The whole bodyguard gets slaughtered and the Daimyo still thinks that disengaging is not a good idea. Thank god he finally loses his nerves and runs away. And that is not the end of my luck: I regained control of him as he passed my army.


As the Daimyo killed enough archers to secure me missile superiority, I attack the enemy again, this time with my archers, which are able to nearly kill a unit of Yari Samurai, No-Dachi Samurai and the remaining archers. His remaining men try to catch up with the previously inactive army in the eastern forest.


I order my YS to attack. They surround and destroy the NDS unit while my SA shower the enemy archers with arrows.


Then a horde of spearmen emerges from the forest. It seems there were more of them than I expected. They were stupid enough to charge right into the circle that killed the No-Dachi Samurai before, but despite being attacked from two sides, they fought while my men took fright within seconds.


How could this happen? Was it the morale penalty from the ambush, the distance between my men and the Daimyo or were my men just tired? Or a bit of everything?
My second battle and first defeat. I already feared I would disappoint you, but here is the embarassing noob defeat I promised. Enjoy.


In the next turn I gather my troops and attack again.


Again I use the Daimyo for risky attacks on his archers, but was somehow able to withdraw this time. Was it a bug last time or just luck this time?


The rest of the battle was not very interesting. I shot the remaining enemy archers and tried to engage the rest of his army in melee. As he was not interested in fighting me and constantly ran away, I had to trap him in a corner. Victory, but considering the odds it was predictable.


Three archers remain in his castle, but the map shows that I control the province. Am I right in assuming that I receive the farm income, but not access to the buildings until I take the castle?
The 3 archers were defending the gate (or gap? ), so I quickly closed in with my Daimyo and killed them. That was easy, but I am afraid it can become quite a grind should there be some more units inside.


After that I invade Iyo. Like in Hizen, the enemy troops don't want to fight me and run away as I close in. Is this the usual AI behaviour or only when they are outnumbered?


Again I had to split my troops and attack from two directions. I charged the enemy SA with my YS, hoping for a quick victory. It seems I was mistaken, as they were able to resist my spearmen pretty well. My SA showered the enemy spearmen until my YA emerged from the forest behind them and attacked their back. The enemy army routed within seconds.


Considering the odds that victory was not very good either.


A legendary swordsman? How is that triggered? A lot of melee in a battle, or more or less random? And more importantly, what does this school do?


As my back and flanks are secure there is no need for complex diplomacy. The Mori border me and I need to expand. They have to go.


This is my current situation.


Now that you could see my style of playing, do you have any advice? What should I do and what not?
It seems I am used to the overpowered general bodyguards in Rome and Medieval 2 and expect too much from my Daimyo, right?

But starting difficulties aside, I love this game. It is just great. The atmosphere, the battles... I don't even mind the "bad" graphics at all.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yesterday I reinstalled the game to have a closer look at the files. The "Ironing Board" is available even without patch. The ShogunW.exe is not, it seems it came from the patch last time. That would explain why it didn't work.
So... does that mean Shogun Gold is not the same as Shogun WE? The latter uses the ShogunW.exe as far as I know, while Gold seems to use the ShogunM.exe like Mongol Invasion.
Apart from the used .exe, is Shogun Gold 1.0 identical as Shogun WE 1.02?

I believe the gold version comes prepatched, yes.

For some strange reason the enemy placed his units far away from the bridge. Doesn't look very smart to me. Does the difficulty level improve the AI?

Level of difficulty adds to AI attack, defend and morale, and might change behavior some I'm not sure.


The enemy YS engages one of my units as soon as it reached his side of the river. I flank him with my other unit.

The bridge is clear, so my Daimyo attacks his archers. They retreat, but for some strange reason he can't pursue them. Is this a bug? Sometimes something like that occurs in Rome and Medieval 2 as well.

You should be able too...sometimes I get a bug where my guys will try and march after fleeing troops even when I order them to charge.

The rebels invade Bungo (and destroy my castle... great ). That was not expected. It seems the rebel AI in Shogun is quite aggressive.
Do the rebels act like any other faction or do they only go after really easy targets?

The rebels are pretty opportunistic yes, they usually only attack weakly defended provinces.

A Takeda Emissary? I grant him an audience and... what is this?
Wow. A video? That is awesome. Not as complex as the Rome and Medieval 2 diplomacy, but the atmosphere of the whole game is just fantastic.

Try training some ninja, they get videos too

The enemy finally sends his spearmen. Time to disengage... disengage... DISENGAGE! Helloooo? Daimyo? Are you there? Disengage. Halt. Disengage. Go there. Or there. Anywhere. Are you deaf?

How could this happen? Was it the morale penalty from the ambush, the distance between my men and the Daimyo or were my men just tired? Or a bit of everything?
My second battle and first defeat. I already feared I would disappoint you, but here is the embarassing noob defeat I promised. Enjoy.

Sounds like a bit of everything, your guys had taken casualties, were being fired at, tired, low morale to start with.

After that I invade Iyo. Like in Hizen, the enemy troops don't want to fight me and run away as I close in. Is this the usual AI behaviour or only when they are outnumbered?

The AI often tries to change position if it feels like it is in a bad spot. This is what prevents you from outflanking it every time.

A legendary swordsman? How is that triggered? A lot of melee in a battle, or more or less random? And more importantly, what does this school do?

You have to get a certain number of kills in a battle. It allows you to build a sword dojo, required for no-dachi samurai (and kensai and battlefield ninja with more upgrades).

Now that you could see my style of playing, do you have any advice? What should I do and what not?
It seems I am used to the overpowered general bodyguards in Rome and Medieval 2 and expect too much from my Daimyo, right?

But starting difficulties aside, I love this game. It is just great. The atmosphere, the battles... I don't even mind the "bad" graphics at all.

The daimyo unit is not as powerful as in the medieval games, it's true. They will often be hard pressed to defeat a unit of archers 1 on 1 (it will at best take a long time). Better used as flankers, where the morale effect can be devastating.

[rattenfleisch]

I believe the gold version comes prepatched, yes.

I've just found some threads on this board about the gold edition and patches.
Now I feel like an idiot.
I couldn't use the board search without being registered, so I just used google. As the results weren't really helpful (and one of them told me that I WE and Gold are the same, so I should use the Patch for WE), I registered here but forgot to try it again with the integrated search function...

Level of difficulty adds to AI attack, defend and morale, and might change behavior some I'm not sure.

I hope so. While the AI is significantly better than in Rome, it could be a little bit more challenging sometimes.

Battles are going fine now. I utterly annihilate equal matched AI armies and was even able to get a nice victory when I was outnumbered on the attack. I still have a lot to learn of course, but nothing compared to my MTW battle performance years ago. I was horrible.

Sounds like a bit of everything, your guys had taken casualties, were being fired at, tired, low morale to start with.

Nobody fired at them, but you are probably correct about the rest.

The AI often tries to change position if it feels like it is in a bad spot. This is what prevents you from outflanking it every time.

I thought that this might be the reason, but it seemed a little bit too much to me in that particular battle. As if the enemy wasn't interested in a fight at all, no matter how favorable the position.



My Shimazu campaign is running fine, a bit too fine perhaps. I should have chosen a higher difficulty setting or a clan who has to worry about more than one direction.

Shortly after the last update, I discovered that my heir was "unassigned". Fortunately I knew what this meant, as I was browsing the Dojo while I eagerly waited for my copy of Shogun to arrive.
Otherwise he would have appeared at the head of a Yari Ashigaru unit I would have trained in Satsuma.
As I really wanted him to be in a cavalry unit, I had to stop my troop production completely for a while. This caused some trouble, as I was not able to conquer, defend my provinces and ensure loyalty at the same time. I tried to run in circles on the southern island, gaining a province, losing another, and so on.

After around two years delay, my heir was ready and I could pump out troops again. I blitzed Mori and my ally Takeda assisted me in nearly every battle against him. Unfortunately he lost a considerable amount of his army in the process and a Takeda without army and heirs was just a too juicy target to resist...
As I was grateful for his help, I made it quick and easy. One turn, two stacks and he was no more. I am sure it wasn't painful and that he is in a better place now.
The Mori followed a few turns later.

My current situation:

[Catiline]

Happy memories.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I construct a port in Satsuma and a farmland upgrade in Buzen, as that is my richest farmland province. In Bungo I build a castle, in the other provinces either farmlands or watch towers

A quick word about farm improvements and border towers.....

General rule of thumb for which provinces to improve farmland is that if they produce 200 koku or less they are generally not worth any investment at all. Between 200 and 400 koku will efficiently return your investment of one upgrade.......over 400 koku deserve maximum upgrades. I have a mathematical table showing how long each level of improvement takes to pay back and eventually make koku over a twenty year period, if you'd like

Not a big deal at Easy or Normal settings as your starting koku is 4000-5000. But at expert setting you start with only 1000 koku, IIRC, and you have to be careful with money at the start. Also at Expert setting the AI gets verrry aggressive and costly battles in terms of replacements can have you broke in no time. It's kinda like playing the Eastern factions like Parthia or Armenia in RTW....only here you collect income only once per year

The first level of watchtower is generally good for 'peeking' into neighboring provinces, but a border fort is usually only recommended for a port province. Shinobi are better.

The rebels invade Bungo and destroy my castle

When I saw you stripped Bungo for troops I had a feeling this would happen

While the AI is significantly better than in Rome, it could be a little bit more challenging sometimes.

You will find yourself cursing the computer screen at the highest setting, believe me

The first time you fall for the fake retreat and get your Yari cavalry (who were chasing would-be routers) massacred by a suddenly resurgent enemy, or as in the Oda 1580 campaign you find yourself between a Takeda-Imagawa alliance on one side, and a Mori-Shimazu one on the other, and they attack almost every single season, or the Hojo horde with seemingly endless stacks of samurai.....or, again as Oda, that 4-star monk taisho in Kawachi might decide that he'd rather be sitting in your province of Yamashiro and bring a few of his +3 monk buddies and archers along with him......you might just regret that statement

[InsaneApache]

Happy memories.

Was just thinking the same.

[rattenfleisch]

Happy memories.

Was just thinking the same.

Glad I could awake some good memories.

I have a mathematical table showing how long each level of improvement takes to pay back and eventually make koku over a twenty year period, if you'd like

I'm all ears.

You will find yourself cursing the computer screen at the highest setting, believe me

If something like that comes from a veteran, a newbie like me shouldn't underestimate the difficulty of the higher settings.
But Shimazu on medium is too easy for me. What would you recommend for my next campaign?
Higher setting, a different clan or maybe even both?

I was thinking about Hojo or Uesugi on hard, but their rich provinces might counter the increased difficulty more or less completely. On the other hand, Hojo has to take care of large borders, which could provide enough challenge for me at the moment.

The first time you fall for the fake retreat and get your Yari cavalry (who were chasing would-be routers) massacred by a suddenly resurgent enemy

A fake retreat?
The AI actually does something like that?
Sounds scary, especially because I often have problems with disengaging.


The Portugese arrived:


They have already been in Satsuma. Are they going to bother me in every port province now or what?

[InsaneApache]

They probably will.

Now it's been a few years since I played but if I were you, I'd wait for the Dutch and build a trading post. That way you get to keep the warrior monks and you can train arquebusiers. A noble addition to any army. Defending bridges becomes a bloodbath for your enemy.

I really am going to have to dig out my old copy of shoggy. You've wet my appetite.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Rat flesh, I would recommend going for broke and trying imagawa, oda, or mori on expert. Nothing better than having a tough challenge.

[Wishazu]

Imagawa would be my personal recomendation. My fondest memories of challenging battles mostly come from that clan. Good Luck Rat Flesh.

[ReluctantSamurai]

What would you recommend for my next campaign?

Imagawa, as has been suggested, or an Oda campaign. Oda 1580 Expert has my vote as the most difficult of them all, but that's just MHO.........

Now it's been a few years since I played but if I were you, I'd wait for the Dutch and build a trading post. That way you get to keep the warrior monks and you can train arquebusiers.

This all depends on how you wish to play the game. Personally, I feel that monks are overrated and you can do quite well with NoDachi at a cheaper cost. I never wait for the Dutch, as I prefer to have muskets long before anyone else and the income from all of my Traders and a cathedral. Both the traders and the cathedral have kept me in campaigns due to the increased income where successive poor harvest years would have sent me broke.

You actually can have your cake and eat it too because if you capture a monk producing province you get to keep the temple and produce monks for yourself.

A fake retreat? The AI actually does something like that?

One might not be able to say it's a deliberate fake, but if an enemy army is withdrawing and you get overly aggressive with your cavalry nipping at their heels, it's not uncommon for the remaining troops to turn on you. As map edges are usually high ground, you have a nasty situation where your cavalry is not only facing YS or other infantry but the attacking troops are coming downhill against you

Also, when fighting against multiple stacks, be wary of having your cav too close to the AI's reinforcement edge. This is another good way to get your cav (which are undoubtedly tired at this point) caught by fast-moving enemy cav reinforcements. Keep them together as much as possible, and cover their return to your main line with Cav archers vis-a-vis leapfrog method.

Are they going to bother me in every port province now or what?

Ah......woe to those who ignore the value of new battlefield technology..........

As to the farm upgrade table.......give me a day or so to dig it up...........

[rattenfleisch]

I could have finished it over a decade earlier, but I really wanted to have my geishas ready and see one of their assassination movies.
After trying it over ten years with three geishas, I gave up and used my army to kill the Hojo leader.
From the posts I saw in this forum I expected geishas to be more effective.

Rat flesh, I would recommend going for broke and trying imagawa, oda, or mori on expert. Nothing better than having a tough challenge.

Expert?
I don't think I am ready for that at the moment. I am still a complete newbie after all.
There are still some aspects of the game I haven't even touched, like gunpowder units, Naginata Infantry, Kensai or Monks (well, I have used monks one time to flank a YS unit, but that's it), so I don't know what to expect from them and what not.

Mori sounds tempting, but I don't want to play another western clan yet. I should probably try an eastern clan now, to see the "other" side of the game. The west has narrow, easily defendable borders, poor farmlands and the opportunity for harbours almost anywhere, while the eastern borders are broad and vulnerable, farmlands quite rich and harbours often not possible.
So, different to my Shimazu campaign, I have to think about where to attack and where to defend, where to build farms and where not and so on. An economy more based on farming than on trade would also be more vulnerable to poor harvests, so I would experience another aspect of the game that was no problem before (my insane trade income was able to compensate for the worst harvest years).

Imagawa is already on my list, but as my third campaign. Their starting position is interesting, but I want to play a "real" eastern clan first, not a 50/50 one.

So it will be either Hojo or Oda I think. Let's see... I will decide when I start the game... in about half an hour.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hojo I find turn into a predictable fight very soon. As you quickly take out the uesugi and then turn west and take the rest of japan in basically the reverse of the shimazu campaign.

Imagawa, takeda, and oda all offer the oppurtunity of a two front war.

As for the geisha, you would have to train them up on some lower level generals, else they will fail over and over against a daimyo.

[ReluctantSamurai]

As for the geisha, you would have to train them up on some lower level generals

Precisely. The very last time I used geisha (before 'banning' them from the game) I had one at level 5 or 6, IIRC, and it was pretty much automatic.......point at any enemy taisho or Daimyo and click. Not too much later......dead Taisho/Daimyo. My campaign, which had been fun and interesting up to that point, ended because all opposing faction leaders and heirs were dead

There are still some aspects of the game I haven't even touched, like gunpowder units, Naginata Infantry, Kensai or Monks (well, I have used monks one time to flank a YS unit, but that's it), so I don't know what to expect from them and what not.

Teppo will take some time to learn how to use properly, especially on the attack. There are several discussions around on how/when to use them. There is a distinct difference depending on whether you are attacking or defending.

Naginata are best used in 'hold position/formation' to defend a bridge or any critical portion of your line. They tire easily (especially in mud/snow) if you march them around alot. They have very high defense ratings but little to no charge/melee bonus so not so good on the attack.

Monks are a good, all purpose infantry unit with excellent morale and high melee stats. Fast-moving as well, so they are good on the offensive especially on the flanks. Try to keep enemy cavalry off of them especially NC and HC. They are also vulnerable to arrow fire without armor upgrades and they will almost always be the first target of enemy archers.

Kensei are one of the fantasy units and one I only use in a 'just-for-kicks' campaign. They are not well modeled in the battle engine due to the fact that they have a one-man unit whereas all other units (except BFN) are 60/120 (normal/large). Still, they are fun as a diversion when you get tired of the same-old same-old. My favorite use for them is in the 'bridge-busting' role when combined with BFN. One Kensei Taisho, 6-8 BFN and 2 musket. A lot of fun!

[gollum]

welcome to the org rattenfleich, enjoy your stay and enjoy STW.