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Thread: Patton and War Crimes

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    Default Patton and War Crimes

    For SFTS & Frags, here is just a basic rundown of the events surrounding the Biscari Massacre. He was also involved in the Canicatti Massacre to a lesser extent:

    During the battle for Sicily in 1943, American troops of 180th Regimental Combat Team of the 45th Division (Thunderbolt) fought German and Italian forces for control of the Biscari Airfield, which changed hands several times.

    After the airfield finally came under Allied control conclusively, American soldiers murdered 76 of their prisoners in two separate incidents. 34 Italians and two Germans were shot to death in the first, and 40 more Italians were killed in the second.

    When news of these events made it to Gen. Omar Bradley, he sought Patton's opinion. From Patton's journal:

    I told Bradley that it was probably an exaggeration, but in any case to tell the officer to certify that the dead men were snipers or had attempted to escape or something, as it would make a stink in the press and also would make the civilians mad. Anyhow, they are dead, so nothing can be done about it.
    Bradley refused to cover up the massacre, and demanded that someone be held accountable.

    However, only two men were brought up on charges - despite the obvious duplicity of others in a crime of such magnitude.

    More disturbing, however, was the defence both defendants mounted. They quoted a speech Patton gave to them earlier in the campaign, and claimed they were following orders:

    When we land against the enemy, don't forget to hit him and hit him hard. When we meet the enemy we will kill him. We will show him no mercy. He has killed thousands of your comrades and he must die. If you company officers in leading your men against the enemy find him shooting at you and when you get within two hundred yards of him he wishes to surrender- oh no! That bastard will die! You will kill him. Stick him between the third and fourth ribs. You will tell your men that. They must have the killer instinct. Tell them to stick him. Stick him in the liver. We will get the name of killers and killers are immortal. When word reaches him that he is being faced by a killer battalion he will fight less. We must build up that name as killers.
    Several more soldiers said they were willing to give evidence that Patton had told them to take no prisoners. One officer claimed that Patton had said:

    The more prisoners we took, the more we'd have to feed, and not to fool with prisoners.
    After the massacre it came out that Patton was said to have stated that the prisoners being shot in ordered rows was 'an even greater error.'

    The defense was apparently successful. In order to protect Patton from the charge of war crimes, Bradley fast tracked the trials. For the first incident, the Army charged Sergeant Horace T. West. West admitted that he had participated in the shootings, was found guilty, stripped of rank and sentenced to life in prison. However, after serving just 6 months, he was released as a private.

    For the second incident, the Army court martialed Captain John T. Compton for killing 40 POWs in his charge. He claimed to be following orders. The investigating officer and the Judge Advocate declared that Compton's actions were unlawful, but the court martial acquitted him. The Army transferred Compton to another regiment where he died a year later fighting in Italy.

    Furthermore, the Army held neither Patton nor the unit commanding officer, Colonel E Cookson, to account in any way.



    (Some summation via Wiki. Original sources: James Weingartner, `Massacre at Biscari: Patton and An American War Crime, The Historian LII, no. 1, (November 1989), 24-39.
    Botting, Douglas & Sayer, Ian: Hitler's Last General: The case against Wilhelm Mohnke. Bantam Books, London, 1989, 354-9 )
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 03-02-2010 at 01:04.

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Very interesting, gracias. I always suspected Patton was more badass then Brad Pitt.

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    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    My only question is such: if you do not mind answering, which side were you rooting for?








    That said, I would not have expected anything else from Patton.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Patton was true peacock. He often said archaic concepts like that , the man thought he was a descendant of great generals of rome.

    how do you not love a man like that sometimes. Striking his soldiers though is inexcusable.

    i recommend the movie Patton, is really very well done.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Hmmmm not a directly involved, still reprehensible.

    I like Patton because he had a killer instinict that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.

    Really the divergence came when many of Americas top military men fought for the south and were killed.

    Its no surpirse that Patton is cut from the same cloth as Washington and Lee.

    Thanks PJ
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    I thought he was a more grind-em-down kinda guy like Grant.

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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    See: Littleton Waller in the Phillippines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smith
    I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn, the more you kill and burn the better it will please me. I want all persons killed who are capable of bearing arms in actual hostilities against the United States.
    Last edited by Azathoth; 03-02-2010 at 07:59.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by AP
    My only question is such: if you do not mind answering, which side were you rooting for?
    I wasn't there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1
    how do you not love a man like that sometimes
    The psychology behind this sentiment represents a very interesting aspect of victor's justice. Orders and attitudes that put Germans away for life make Patton "badass".

    Sepp Dietrich, for example, was of similar rank to Patton, and he was every bit as "badass". His military exploits are legendary. He also had similar views towards POWs. They weren't to get in the way of success in the field. He got life, later reduced to 25 years.

    I like Patton because he had a killer instinct that was bred into most European generals. This is the part that gets most overlooked in American canon. Patton could stand toe to toe with the best generals in Europe where as men like Bradley and Eisenhower simply lacked that go for the throat instinict.
    I agree. Patton was great because he fought to win at all costs among a bunch of careerists and bureaucrats. Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival. America could afford to fight a gentleman's war, where politics and public opinion shared equal standing with battlefield success. In any other circumstances, in any other army, the slapping incident, for example, would not have sidelined his career. He would have made a brilliant Russian Marshal.

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Shameful acts. Crimes in their own right. Not unique either, not unique to Patton.

    In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival.
    Oh, but that's not true. Germany and its many allies could've decided to just stay at home.
    You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    You make it sound like everyone should've been shooting POWs, Panzer.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    In fact, there are so many allied war crimes, that if one adds up all their sordid acts, they left as many victims as the nazis took almost a week!
    Be careful what you wish for. I have heard there are a number of historians working on just such an equation.

    Oh, but that's not true. Germany and its many allies could've decided to just stay at home.
    You're reading history backwards this way - Germany ended up fighting to cling on for dear life, but this can not be read backwards to absolve it. The nazis didn't start the war for survival. It was one of conquest and subjugation.
    I was talking mainly about Russia. Patton was more in line with Zhukov and Yeryomenko than his American and British contemporaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATPG
    You make it sound like everyone should've been shooting POWs, Panzer.
    That was not my intent. I only meant to demonstrate that such attitudes were not unique to any one military during WW2. Obviously, it should not be done.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I agree. Patton was great because he fought to win at all costs among a bunch of careerists and bureaucrats. Unfortunately, he hailed from the one nation that wasn't fighting for its survival. America could afford to fight a gentleman's war, where politics and public opinion shared equal standing with battlefield success. In any other circumstances, in any other army, the slapping incident, for example, would not have sidelined his career. He would have made a brilliant Russian Marshal.
    It's truly a pity many of Americas best military minds lay in Confederate graves. Victims of there own geopgraphy
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Be careful what you wish for. I have heard there are a number of historians working on just such an equation.
    Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    I don't think that PJ's point was that allies were just as bad as the nazis, On the other hand, we shouldn't just ignore war crimes that weren't committed by the nazis.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    The psychology behind this sentiment represents a very interesting aspect of victor's justice. Orders and attitudes that put Germans away for life make Patton "badass".

    Sepp Dietrich, for example, was of similar rank to Patton, and he was every bit as "badass". His military exploits are legendary. He also had similar views towards POWs. They weren't to get in the way of success in the field. He got life, later reduced to 25 years.
    one of my favorite generals was erwin rommel. i am still impressed with military prowess over politics in many cases

    It's truly a pity many of Americas best military minds lay in Confederate graves. Victims of there own geopgraphy
    Thats debatable. I agree that the southern generals were superior and the south has a fighting tradition (texas for example makes up 17% of americas armed forces) but there were excellent go for the throat generals in the North. a prime example would be Tecumseh Sherman.

    and by the time of WW2 it no longer mattered. That generation was dead and gone and they would have had very little if any impact on the officers of america. There lessons lived on in military theory.

    And George Washington was not a go for the throat general he was cool and calculating and waged a pseudo guerrilla defensive war.

    Lee is of course a superb general but he also lost something with the death of his XO Jackson.

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    Guest Azathoth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Once again, no one gives a care for the fate of the Philippines.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    one of my favorite generals was erwin rommel. i am still impressed with military prowess over politics in many cases
    I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
    Quite ineffective and slow they were. But yeah, we killed a lot in a week so they must have killed a lot, too.


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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
    I'm well aware of what he was saying. Do you understand what I was saying?

    It is easy to make such a claim, but as more historians run the numbers, it will be hard to justify it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmation
    I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
    Of course, but people in the West naturally focus on their own contribution... makes 'em feel important.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    I don't really understand this Rommel obssesion. I admit Africa isn't my specialty, but from what I know, there wasn't anything so special about him. There are literally dozens of German generals I would give more credit to than to him.
    im talking ww2 generals in germany. i liked him persoanlly in his private life as well.

    but whats impressive is how well he managed against both Patton and Montgomery as foes and with the italians to back him up (lol)

    but no he isnt my favorite generals just my favorite of the ww2 germans.

    Once again, no one gives a care for the fate of the Philippines.
    who macarthur? he was ok but i dislike him. mentally unstable in my eyes.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    im talking ww2 generals in germany. i liked him persoanlly in his private life as well.

    but whats impressive is how well he managed against both Patton and Montgomery as foes and with the italians to back him up (lol)

    but no he isnt my favorite generals just my favorite of the ww2 germans.
    Bah, I don't know... He showed some promise in France but then was relegated to Africa. He might have turned out great but he we'll never know. Also, his idea about putting tanks on the beaches, in range of heavy guns from the allied ships, during overlord makes you wonder about his military capabilities.

    I feel it's more propaganda. Allies needed an explanation for the failures so they built up Rommel and DAK. "Ok we did perform poorly, but we were against the best of Wehrmacht fighting under best commander Wehrmacht has to offer" type of thing...

    And neither Monty nor Patton deserve that much recognition in my book. Patton did show some glimpses of quality but he never had the opportunity to prove his skill in a large scale operation, so he's just an interesting "what if" for me, and the less said about Monty the better.

    On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 03-06-2010 at 00:31.

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
    oh yes hes one of those men, a peacock that you either love or hate. much like andrew jackson

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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    On the other hand, Patton is definitely the most interesting character among the Allied generals.
    oh yes hes one of those men, a peacock that you either love or hate. much like andrew jackson

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    Tuba Son Member Subotan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Quote Originally Posted by The Wizard View Post
    Louis was obviously sarcastically asserting that even if you added all Allied war crimes up, you'd still get something equal to what the Nazis achieved in a week. Boy oh boy, those evil Allies.
    At least until you add Chiang Kai-Shek and Stalin...

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    At least until you add Chiang Kai-Shek and Stalin...
    So painfully true.

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    Tovenaar Senior Member The Wizard's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Erm, no. Adding in those two would maybe crank the Allied war crime tally up to, oh, something the Nazis and the Japanese did every six months or so. Maybe a year if you're lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    I'm well aware of what he was saying. Do you understand what I was saying?

    It is easy to make such a claim, but as more historians run the numbers, it will be hard to justify it.
    Trying to morally equate the Allies with the Axis is a lost case from the beginning. Give it up.
    Last edited by The Wizard; 03-07-2010 at 19:20.
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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    Trying to morally equate the Allies with the Axis is a lost case from the beginning. Give it up.
    Truth.

    and the Japs did every six months or so. Maybe a year if you're lucky.
    You should try to avoid saying jap, many people find it offensive.

    Edit: actually im sure you know, never mind.

    Edit2: patton is on tv right now where i live.
    Last edited by Centurion1; 03-06-2010 at 04:13.

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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    who macarthur? he was ok but i dislike him. mentally unstable in my eyes.
    I was referring to the atrocities committed by America in its war in the Philippines.

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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    I was referring to the atrocities committed by America in its war in the Philippines.


    what about the rape of china or the bataan death march, the japanese were nasty little buggers no doubt about it.

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    Default Re: Patton and War Crimes

    The present war is no bloodless, opera bouffe engagement; our men have been relentless, have killed to exterminate men, women, children, prisoners and captives, active insurgents and suspected people from lads of ten up, the idea prevailing that the Filipino as such was little better than a dog....
    Not America's finest moment.

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