Last edited by cmacq; 04-05-2010 at 06:19.
quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae
Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.
The Cherusci became Swabians? That is a personal insult of all the people in northern Germany.
But honestly: Never heard of this, it's new to me (that does not mean much). The Cherusci probably settled roughly between Elbe and Weser and the Harz mountains, far north of later Swabia. As far as I know they were thought to have become a part of the Saxons in the 4th c. AD, but that can be outdated info.
The queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.
(perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)
Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
(later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)
Current day landscape names does not reflect ancient location- or even medieval. AFAIK the Saxons grew from the Chauci and others living N and E of the Frisians (who has been pretty stationary but ranged far from there trading- later colonising) and S of the Angles in "Anglen" in S Jutland, those two with the Jutes later raided-mercenaried in and invaded Roman Britain to form the Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms. Meanwhile the Cherusci seem to disappear from the historical view. I do not know what became of them and have always assumed they they and other tribes of the area merged into the Franks as tribal confederations became nations, later to (migrate and) form states. I would also love the irony of the German nationalists' main hero's people becoming their main enemy :-D
'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.
"Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk
Balloon count: 13
Sorry I mentioned the Cherusci becoming Swabian, as Caesar and Tacitus used the term, as a catch-all for the early west Germanic speaking anti-Roman and anti-Celt faction centered in the lower Elbe. However, in Caesar's generation the Cherusci were also clearly anti-Swabian. For a short period in the 1st century AD they became the leader of a confederation of tribes that included elements of the Bructeri, Marsi, Sicambri, Chauci and Chatti. We know that elements of the Bructeri, Marsi, and Sicambri latter became part of the Franconic confederation or 'Freemen.' Likewise the Chauci were incorporated into the Saxonic confederation, while elements of the Chatti later became aligned with both the Swabians and Franks.
As for the tribal name Cherusci, I've seen a proposed etymology as Xeruskōz, but there may be a good argument made for the Gaulish ‘Cei-rusco’ meaning ‘those who incite battle.’ For a number of reasons I think many of the tribes of western and southwestern Germania were converted to west Germanic speakers between the late 1st century BC and the 2nd century AD. The nature of the early Swabians may be suggested by its west Germanic tribal name. Like many early Germanic tribal names Swef-/Sweb-/Swep- seems to represent both an appellation for Odin 'the sleep/death bringer,' and a functional title 'those that swoop/sweep up, up-sweepers,' or the 'usurpers.' As the leader of the Cherusci confederation used the west Germanic Irmin (another appellation for Odin) the process of acculturation seems to have been underway by the early 1st century AD.
I know much of these theories may appear to be quite a ways out of the box, but on closer examination they are not.
Last edited by cmacq; 04-08-2010 at 23:30.
quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae
Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.
Ok, I see, thank you. Nobody knows for sure what happened to the Cherusci. Mentions after the 1st c. AD might have had no actual context, they could have been just romantizising. If the Cherusci later became part of others than the Saxons, they must have moved away from their old places of settlement. Possible for the elusive old tribes but without evidence.
That's such an unhistorical point of view, you must be joking. BTW it would be an irony which needed a very very long time to develop, about 14 centuries at least.
The queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.
(perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)
Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
(later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)
Yes and no I can see the irony in the 19th century national romantics hating France and worshipping Arminus as a true German, father of the German nation and whatnot- while in the meantime what had been the Cherusci had become the Franks, who again had become the hated French.
Puts rabid nationalistic antipathy a bit in perspective does it not? I am a bit of a cynic, so I love that sort of thing.
And make no mistake, I love Denmark and would risk my life for it, and I am damn proud to be Danish, and I am even somewhat right-wing. But that does not mean I hate people because they have other nationalities (apart of course from Swedes TiC) or political convictions (apart of course from Nazis and Commies, and here I am serious not TiC).
'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.
"Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk
Balloon count: 13
Right, I also view that most of the Cherusci collapsed within the Sicambri who became the core tribe of the 'Freemen,' Confederation; the 'Franks.' It seems the Romans wanted to make the Cherusci extinct after the Varus Battle.
quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae
Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.
I don't see real irony because it's not based on facts. And even when, I don't think one of the fatuous nationalists of the late 19th c. would have seen irony, cause the theories were not based on real facts, so any historical deployment was of no great importance. BTW, the French are not the descendants of the Franks alone and the Germans are not the descendants of the Teutons/antique Germans/Germanic people alone.
Arminius was used as a medium for nationalistic feelings by German humanistic scholars from the 16th c. onwards. It was the time of reformation and anti-German propaganda in Italy, so the old victory of a Cheruscan person, who had had no nationalistic Germanic feelings at all, was used against the "welsch" people from beyond the alps. Later that was transferred to the French by some scholars, especially after the first half of the 17th c., from when on France had a very aggressive attitude against the weak German states and was trying for some centuries to reach the River Rhine as the border. But there were no broad anti-French feelings, on the contrary the French were admired as Europes most distinguished people. That changed a little bit in and after the Napoleonic wars when great parts of Germany were occupied. But until the 1870s the prevalent form of German nationalism was one of unity, freedom and democracy, and it was felt as a great burden by many politicians that the obnoxious militaristic Prussia was the leader on the way to a unified German state.
The queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.
(perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)
Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
(later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)
I think he may have meant the period between 1870 and 1970.
quae res et cibi genere et cotidiana exercitatione et libertate vitae
Herein events and rations daily birth the labors of freedom.
Do you consider Strabo wrong when he says the Boii repulsed the Cimbri? Or was it a mutual destruction in which the Boii could not recoup from? Something else?Originally Posted by cmacq
What archaeological evidence are you referring to, is there a book, website, papers that can be read about this? Any information you provide would be appreciated.
I dont have any references to hand but if I remember right archaeological evidence suggests that the Cimbri pierced quite far into the Boii heartlands. This is demonstrated by evidence of widespread burning and destuction occuring during the period of the cimbri migration. Although the Boii eventually defeated and repulsed the Cimbrii, they never really recovered from the damage done.
1970? Why this date? From the 1950s there was no longer enmity between France and Germany (officially). The French Minister of Foreign Affairs, Robert Schuman (in my opinion a real hero in the best sense of the word), who had been imprisoned by the Gestapo in 1941, acted for an European community as early as 1950, a felling that was welcomed in Germany, even if it was rejected in France until 1957, perhaps for understandable reasons, as the war was over just for 5 years. Or do you mean that there were still hostile feelings in many individual people which changed after 1970?
I would say the prime time of official anti-French feelings in Germany were the years 1870 to 1945 (ok, apart from 1806 till 1815). German nationalism after the 1870s became more and more unreal and very aggressive which led sooner or later to the war. All the main nations were guilty for the outbreak of WW I but the German Empire was more guilty than the others.
The queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.
(perhaps from an English Traditional, about 1700 AD)
Drum, Kinder, seid lustig und allesamt bereit:
Auf, Ansbach-Dragoner! Auf, Ansbach-Bayreuth!
(later chorus -containing a wrong regimental name for the Bayreuth-Dragoner (DR Nr. 5) - of the "Hohenfriedberger Marsch", reminiscense of a battle in 1745 AD, to the music perhaps of an earlier cuirassier march)
For fighting when their ally starts a war?
I'm sorry to say this but the French had it coming for them (excluding the Third Reich period, of course).
Anti-French sentiment is still strong in some parts of German society (and I suspect it's the same vice versa), but it's more of a verbal thing than anything else now. The worst part of this entirely unnecessary and stupid German-French conflict is over, hopefully never to return.
That's an interpretation, and I'd venture to say it's inaccurate.but the German Empire was more guilty than the others.
Swêboz guide for EB 1.2
Tips and Tricks for New Players
from Hannibal Khan the Great, Brennus, Tellos Athenaios, and Winsington III.
It was a group of Serbian and Bosnian terrorists that assassinated Franz Ferdinand, provoking Austria-Hungary to declare war on Serbia. Russia declares war on Austria-Hungary, and only then does Germany enter. The war itself was in no way Germany's fault, and its magnitude was due to all the major European powers, not one nation in particular.
from Megas Methuselah for helping with city names from Hooahguy for my sig
This thread should probably get back on topic.
The Cimbrii...
Not that I have time to participate. But it should.
'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.
"Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk
Balloon count: 13
Weird though how geala is coming from Germany, are they tought some kind of self blaming? Oh well, we should probably get on topic.
Cimbri, most likely Germanic. Maybe Celts went with them as they moved around but them being Celtic?
It's apath...typical German trait.
I think we should start over and first define some categories. If "Celtic" and "Germanic" are such ill-defined words, how about re-defining them? Or using substitutes?Cimbri, most likely Germanic. Maybe Celts went with them as they moved around but them being Celtic?
Then we should discriminate between ethnic and linguistical categories.
All this "you can't really tell, because those terms are inaccurate and everybody mixed with one another" is all fine and well, and likely true, but it's practically a given and doesn't get us any further in terms of science. We need to move beyond that point.
Swêboz guide for EB 1.2
Tips and Tricks for New Players
from Hannibal Khan the Great, Brennus, Tellos Athenaios, and Winsington III.
Well I always like to see it ethnically, otherwise it kind of hard to talk about peoples if you only look at the culture they are having.
I mean the Nervii had Celtic culture but claimed Germanic descent. How to classify them?
As brought out already, 'Germanic' means, to a Roman around Caesars time and afterward, anyone east of the Rhine, north of the Danube. Celts lived there for centuries, but would be Germans if one follows Caesar's misguided terminology. There are strong indications, due to burial patterns found only in eastern and Belgian areas, that portions of the Danubian Celts came westward sometime around 250 B.C. If they were eastern originated, and came west in Belgium, then they'd have crossed the Rhine's east bank to make it to the west bank. In other words they be called Germans due to having originated from the east bank of the Rhine although they were Celts. This is most likely why the Belgae boasted of Germanic roots as they came from well beyond the eastern bank. Thank Caesar for the confusion....
Last edited by Power2the1; 05-16-2010 at 15:45.
This will be porbably most accurate - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri
From my opinion Cimbri were germanic tribe maybe mixed with celts.
by Gaius Septimus Severus
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Finished essays: The Italian Wars (1494-1559), The siege of Buda (1686), The history of Boius tribe in the Carpathian Basin, Hungarian regiments' participation in the Austro-Prussian-Italian War in 1866, The Mithridatic Wars, Xenophon's Anabasis, The Carthagian colonization
Skipped essays: Serbian migration into the Kingdom of Hungary in the 18th century, The Order of Saint John in the Kingdom of Hungary
Not necessarily the case, you have to remember the Germani cisrhenani; the Boii and the Volcae Tectosages who were east of the Rhine were certainly considered "Celts" by the Romans. Tacitus brings up different peoples including the Bastarnae(he considers them German) which would not fit in to this situation.Originally Posted by Power2the1
Originally Posted by J.h.W.g. Liebeschuetz-"Regna and Gentes(The Vandals)"Both Kruta and Cunliffe speak of the Champagne region where the Danubian Celts settled, not all of Belgium and certainly not north eastern Belgium.Originally Posted by Power2the1
Originally Posted by Maureen Carroll-"Romans, Celts & Germans"Generally I agree with this statement, but in this particular case I do not. Wiki did a fairly good job on this article to present both cases though there is more information that would attest to both sides not presented in the article. For me if the Cimbri did indeed come from the Denmark area, then they would be considered Germani.Originally Posted by Mediolanicus
Last edited by Frostwulf; 05-19-2010 at 06:54.
[QUOTE=Frostwulf;2491400]You know what I mean.Not necessarily the case, you have to remember the Germani cisrhenani; the Boii and the Volcae Tectosages who were east of the Rhine were certainly considered "Celts" by the Romans. Tacitus brings up different peoples including the Bastarnae(he considers them German) which would not fit in to this situation.
Caesar picked and chose who he wanted to play up as the 'threat' to the civilized world. Celts who had originated and had been coming from the east bank were automatically labeled as Germans so as the Seubi came along, no doubt bringing east bank Celts and Celto-Germanic with his, they were all 'Germans' so he had a reason to give 'aid' to the Aeduoi. The oppida dwelling Germano-Celtic/Celto-Germanic tribes on the east bank were umped in with his group of 'Germans', only due to their location and nothing more but, as you brought out, further to the east still we have the Celtic Volcae hanging out as they had for centuries. So what is it Caesar, are their Celts, Germans, or both east of the Rhine and north of the Danube? This doesn't add up of course, readers who are into all this will know he certainly doesn't stick with his own geographical claims either, which calls into question some of his other claims of tribal and cultural affiliations.
From Echoes of the Ancient World The Celts Irish, Scots, Welch & Bretons by Kruta and Foreman
The Belgae were part 'Danubian' Celt and part Belgian/native Celt. These were boasting of their origination beyond the Rhine in the Danubian and Carpathian territories, one could argue, and not their origination with the Jasdorf Germanic tribes who had not came close to the Rhine yet by the time these Danubian migrations occurred.According to evidence found mainly in present-day Champagne, the formation of the Belgic peoples of Gaul must be bound up with the arrival, in the mid 3rd century B.C., of fairly large but disparate groups, originally from Celtic territories along the Danube, between the Erzebirge of Bohemia and the western part of the Carpathian basin. They belonged to a demographic network the density of which had become significantly lowered since the late 5th century. They founded new cemeteries which were characterized in particular by the frequency of quadrangular or circular enclosures around the graves and by the sporadic, but significant, practice of cremation in a milieu where inhumation had hitherto been the absolute rule. The newcomers brought with them object with forms unknown in the region but widespread in the Danubian zone, as well as articles of dress such s ankle-rings worn by well-to-do women, which were quite alien to local traditions. The newcomers retained some of their their customs, abandoning others to conform to local practices and, one or two generations after their arrival, formed with the native an apparently homogeneous group of populations. The peoples whom Julius Caesar found settled in Belgic Gaul sprang directly from the fusion, at the time relatively recent, of a conglomerate of Celtic speaking groups, both native and foreign.
Last edited by Power2the1; 05-19-2010 at 12:51.
Right, to the romans, "Germani" simply meant east of the Rhine and north of the Danube. it wasn't really an ethnolinguistic identity to them as it is to us nowadays.
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"To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -CalgacusOriginally Posted by skullheadhq
What an interesting thread.
So from my woolly amateur undestanding:
There was a tribe who used the name Cimbri. They probably (like many peoples in Europe) adopted/inherited/had imposed on them some or most of the fashionable and burgeoning "Celtic" language and material culture, which we associate with La Tene material cultures.
As the "germanic" group of language/culture/tribal entities spread from what is now Jutland the Cimbri adopted/had imposed on them/returned to this cultural/linguitic identity (is there an identified material culture we can associate with "germans"? More than one? Less than one?).
Is it fair to say those termed Germani may have earlier been considered a group within the Keltoi, and later some Keltoi may have been consider groups within the Germani?
A bit like the way a 4th century CE Roman could say "oh the Franks a faction of the Germans" whereas a 1th century CE Muslim Arab might say "oh the Germans are a faction of the Franks".
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I absolutely agree with this, and also how he doesn't stick with his geographical claims. But if I remember correctly he begins in a simple statement that Germani are on the east side and then he refines this situation later on.Originally Posted by Power2the1
Unfortunately this comes down to the ill-defined term of ethnicity. Culiffe for one states that if it comes down to a factor, that factor would be language. Others tend to go with material culture and there are a myriad of other criteria. I believe this is why for simplicity most archaeologists/historians have just come down to using grossgrupen(macro-cultures). In this particular situation they use the Roman view of ethnicity for determining who is "German" and who is "Celt".Originally Posted by Power2the1
In her book she does go further into detail on this situation dealing with particular tribes, mainly the Ubii.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
The spoiler below are also quotes that show it was not just about geography.
Caesar, Tacitus and other classical authors may not have had the training or the refinement of anthropology, but they were intelligent enough to tell that there were certain aspects of tribes(language, culture, etc. though not greatly defined) which enabled them to distinguish between "Celt" and "German". In the spoiler below is an example by Carrol of the Ubii tribe.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm stating that is was more then just geography in which the classical authors classified peoples.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
As Kruta points out it is in the Champagne area, and the Remi could be caught up in that. But lets look at another quote:Originally Posted by Power2the1
He uses the Remi particularly, who are the northern most part of this influx. Yes the Remi were part of the Belgae, but among the southern most part of them. Again when you go further north and north east this influx does not apply.Originally Posted by Venceslas Kruta-“Celts History and Civilization”
Both of these authors are specific in the territories(Champagne/Marne) they mention, which does not include the northern/north eastern Belgae.Originally Posted by Barry Cunliffe-“The ancient Celts”
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
These guys would disagree with that:Originally Posted by gamegeek2
Originally Posted by John F. Drinkwater-"The Alamanni and Rome 213-496"Originally Posted by Gerhard Dobesch-"The Celts*"Originally Posted by J.h.W.g. Liebeschuetz-"Regna and Gentes(The Vandals)"
Last edited by Ludens; 05-20-2010 at 19:46. Reason: merged posts
Germani collectively refers to all groups east of the Rhine and North of the Danube. The Baltic Lugiones were Germani, the Celtic Ingaevones were Germani, and the "Germanic" Sweboz were Germani as well. To the Romans, it was a term based on geography and not ethnolinguistic identity. It's just like "Middle Easter" - anyone who dwells within that geographic area is often called a "Middle Easterner" yet there are Persians, Arabs, Turks, Assyrians, Armenians, Pashtuns, and many other ethnolinguistic groups living within the middle east - yet they are often all lumped under "Middle Easterners."
It seems that the Germanic and Baltic tribes share a common origin in the Germano-Balto-Slavic family, a branch of IndoEuropean (identified by common characteristics - http://ninitalk.files.wordpress.com/...mily20tree.jpg - this tree is good for illustrative purposes, though it seems to have garbled the Celtic family). What seems to have happened is that a group of GermanoBaltoSlavs migrated to Scandinavia and their language began to significantly differ from the GermanoBaltoSlavic parent language around 500 BC via a series of sound shifts. By this time, BaltoSlavic had become distinct from GermanoBaltoSlavic via satemization, and Baltic and BaltoSlavic tribes had spread out all over Eastern Europe - some of these tribes were the Lugiones, Venedi, Budini, and Neuri. Some of these would later develop dialects that would become Proto-Slavic, but this apparently didn't happen until well into the centuries CE.
Last edited by gamegeek2; 05-21-2010 at 04:15.
Europa Barbarorum: Novus Ordo Mundi - Mod Leader Europa Barbarorum - Team Member
"To robbery, slaughter, plunder, they give the lying name of empire; they make a desert and call it peace." -CalgacusOriginally Posted by skullheadhq
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