Stalemates

[A Nerd]

I have STW installed and I thought about launching a new campaign. Uesuigy is my favorite faction. I've been brushing up on normal but I want to graduate to hard for more of a challange. My only problem is I often stalemate with the other factions. I remember one campaign I was moving south thru Hojo and he had a huge garrison in that river province near his southern tip (I can't remember the province name at the moment). No matter what type of army I raised, whether an auto resolve or if I played the battle myself, I took huge casualties and never could take the province. Couldn't afford garissons around this province such that I might move on to the west (he had the money to keep on improving this garrison too to my dismay), so I quit the campaign and started over. Shimazu on normal I think. Any advice as to defeat and/or prevent a stalemate with a worthy adversary?

[Togakure]

Avoid over-turtling, especially if you're playing original STW (not Warlord Edition/Mongol Invasions). Original's most annoying feature is the "horde," huge build-ups of troops, usually the Hojo or Uesugi. I haven't played original in ages, but Gollum recently posted that you couldn't disable the battle timer in original; this combined with the horde problem creates a situation where there are so many troops that you can't defeat them in one (or for that matter, many) battles if you let them build up too much.

Try focusing on a controlled but steady expansion without building up your infrastructure first; build up as you go. Once you get the rhythm of it, it's not so hard to win within 20 years, without building the uppermost tiers of buildings/troops. As an example, I just played my first STW campaign in a couple of years, Uesugi, Expert, Sengoku campaign, and won just after Uesugi Kenshin was born (in the mid- to late-1540's; I didn't get to use him much). I didn't see any gun troops in this game.

Good luck on your next game :).

[A Nerd]

Thanks for the reply. Just for the record I have the original STW with the mongol invasion expansion installed. I do tend to turtle. I think my problem may have been trying to build spear and archery dojos in one or more provinces other that what I started with. Hojo tends to attack early so I thought it a good idea...guess it wasn't. I'll keep your advice as I play my next campaign!

[gollum]

i used to stalemate before i gave rushing a go; shyly at first; more and more boldly subsequently. Just try to be gradually more aggressive in your campaigns especially when there are opportunities. Of all of possible opportunities none is greater than the early game - good rushing can decide the game within the first 2 - 3 years or so (depending on the faction).

For the Uesugi, you better relentlessly push the Hojo at first. Leave Shinano and Hida and take Kozuke, Shimotsuke and Hitachi (leave a moderate garison in Etchigo against any ideas the Imagawa may have from Shinano); if lucky, you may kill the heirless Hojo Daimyo in one of those battles, after which taking the river provinces of Hojo is much easier; if not build some in order to push in Musashi and Shimosa, which you need to take to brake the Hojo. The autocalc in STW is slightly against the player iirc - so i would play all battles if i were you, especially early ones.

In general the Uesugi require luck for succesful timely rushing against the Hojo. I am saying timely, because if it takes too long the Uesugi is risking to be sandwitched by whoever is coming from the southwest (Oda, Imagawa, Takeda or even Mori). The best faction to try rushing with are in fact the Hojo; take out Mutsu asap and then take on Etchigo and Dewa in time. After that simply roll quickly quickly southwest.

The Shimazu are in a difficult position if you are a slow player - usually the standard route is take over Imagawa's Kyushu and then proceed to the Mori through Nagato till you reach kawachi/yamashiro. Then you can either bottle up in a defensive posture if you are facing a horde or, if not push to the Owari/Mino line before taking a break.

However if you play MI the need to rushing is substantially lower to inexistent - the buildings costing half price make the investment/return ratios of builds like ports infinitely more quick to take effect and cost effective that favors the southwestern clans (Mori/Shimazu) making even turtling viable with them, unlike in v1.12.

[Jef Costello]

With a river province that is the ideal opportunity to grind down lots of his troops. How many men did he have in his garrison? What type? how much honour did the general have? What about you?
It might be that you waited tooo long to fight him or it might be that you just need some practise at battle. What provinces do you have? If you have Mutsu and Dewa then you can afford to wait and develop some decent troops to use.

[A Nerd]

In the river province the AI had alot of archers alot of yari samurai and a few shock troops, I think they were all ND's. It was almost a full stack and it was early in the game. I considered using a naval invastion to the southern tip to remove the dojos he had there, for he was producing troops there and in the river province. I was raising 2 mabey 3 archers, mostly yari samurai and a few 2-3 ND's. They were obliderated by his archers while fighting the yari samurai at the end of the bridge. It didn't take long for my entire army to rout and I barely put a dent in his garrison. Next couple of turns while I raised ANOTHER army, he would just replace what little casualties he suffered. More archers and few Yari Samurai I think. I didn't have the funds to use two stacks and auto resolve so I gave up. As Shimazu I usually did take out Imagawa first, his provinces were useful with farm uprgades. Then move east, thaking Mori, Takeda (if still there) and that ronin island. From there I usually had the funds for sufficient armies to battle whomever in the east was prodominant and/or the large armies that might be lurking there. I guess I will have to speed things up, get a new felling for the game(for its been some time), play normal a few campaigns and then graduate to hard. Funny thing, even back when the game was new I never had much luck at very hard, guess I just smell. WHat might be the easiest faction to try? Hojo? Thanks!

[gollum]

Hojo, imo yes. You start secured, with lots of money, easily defensible provinces and only the Uesugi offering any real challange.

[chaouki]

don't know about the other starting times, but hojo in 1530 on hard with 60man/unit was even a bit boring because it was could have been over so fast. after conquering the map from the east up to kawachi i decided to stop and wait for teppos. was quite funny to fight uesugi in shikoku and aki/bizen/etc, he inherited the lands from shimazu. now the only ones left are the shimazu and takeda who both have reappeared in uesugi-territory plus some uesugi-ronin :D

[gollum]

yes indeed chaouki, Hojo is relatively easy, due to the terrain and incomes on that side of the map. However it might suit Nerd to a T, since he is jumping difficulty level - its always good to do gradual, incremental progress.

[A Nerd]

I pitty da' fool! IE. Hojo at hard difficulty...ha ha (I am soooo funny...) Somewhere, Dr. Shouls is screaming...meow, meow on a fence that is...says I...

[A Nerd]

Sorry about the double post, and the schizophrenic one above, I was in a manic mood...return to topic please...Hojo it is!

[ReluctantSamurai]

My way of breaking stalemates is to use a combination of subterfuge and naval landings. I can understand someones reluctance to use what might be considered cheese, but after investing hours and hours into a campaign I'm not really in the mood to just chuck the whole thing to the recycle bin.

I noticed that the AI tends to stack its' forces at borders with other clans. This leaves rear areas vulnerable. I start by cranking out dozens of shinobi (I usually have several training centers for this purpose) and send them in waves of at least 6 or 7 to a port province. Whichever ones do not get caught move inland (it's important to get them to areas where the AI cannot shift troops to in one turn) and another wave moves in. When I have at least three or four groups of shinobi in adjacent provinces, my enemy is going to have real problems on his hands. It's not unusual for me to get four or five provinces to rebel all at once, and at least two or three will survive to go ronin.

I couple this with a port raiding party at selected locations. If the province is one I wish to keep, then I don't raze it to the ground. Otherwise................

I had a Takeda campaign once where Oda had 12 (count 'em...12) stacks sitting in Shinano about half of which were cavalry. No way to budge them by any stretch of the imagination. By the time my 'Shadow War' was in full swing, there was no choice but to remove troops from Shinano to put down all the rebellions. When his numbers got to a manageable level, I struck, taking Shinano, defeating all the attempts to retake it, and broke his power to become Shogun.

It can be done.......

[A Nerd]

That's an interesting technique...I'll have to try it. I assumed if there was a border fort in the province, which there was in my situation, the shinobi would be caught. On an aside, Shimazu beat me in a campaign once using naval landings, I was shocked. He moved and army behind my lands via ports to an undefended 'troop producer' province I had, wiping it out. I moved a nearby army into it to take it back and on the next turn before we engaged, he moved that same army into another 'troop producer' wiping that out too! I gave up on frustration! The dumb AI beat me! Next campaign I had ninja and shinobi in all my port cities in preparation though!

[ReluctantSamurai]

I assumed if there was a border fort in the province, which there was in my situation, the shinobi would be caught.

Some do. That's the point of using 6 or more at one time. Some will survive. If you have control of Yamashiro and the other province that produces shinobi with +1 honor bonus (can't recall the name off-hand...it's the coastal province just south of Wakasa) and have the highest level dojo for shinobi, then you can produce shinobi with +3 honor which have a greater chance at survival. The longer they survive in enemy territory, creating rebellions, the more honor they gain. I've gotten lvl 6 shinobi out of such ventures.........

I will stress again that you need to get several adjacent provinces, at once, to rebel, preferably ones that do not have ports. This makes the AI have to take more than one turn to put down a rebellion, and gives you the opportunity to slip in a port-raiding army of your own. You might also want to have several ninjas at hand to assassinate generals, as the autocalc almost always gives a clan the victory over ronin, even at very poor odds for the clan, so those generals putting down rebellions gain levels....which you certainly don't want.......

I always keep a token force in important port provinces. You can retreat to the castle, giving you time to get a siege-breaker army to the rescue. I learned the same way you did..........

One other thing to note: use feint attacks at selected points or all along your border to assist your "Shadow War" efforts. I'm sure you've experienced the AI doing this......invading a province, and calling off the attack. It's a good technique....use it!! There is no loss of honor for your Taisho, and no battle even need be fought.

The AI makes its' moves after you do when you hit the end turn button, so it already knows where you are moving troops. However...........

.....if you've created several rebellions in rear areas, move an army or two to port raid, AND you deliver a series of feints all along the battlefront, it's now faced with a dilemma of which threat is real and which is a feint. Often times it makes very bad decisions as to where to move troops and one of your front-line feints comes against an empty province (allowing you to just walk in) or one severely weakened such that it falls easily. It's often not a bad idea to wage a "Shadow War" against another clan who is rapidly gaining power, but whom you are not yet at war with (even an ally...hehehe) to slow their progress.

A battle of wits, so-to-speak. Keep the AI off balance and guessing as to your true intent!

[A Nerd]

I'll try that, if anything it sounds like it will add some fun and dimension to the campaign. I had always used shinobi as pieces to quell rebellion in my own territories. Rebellions though, very interesting, probably best if his holdings are more than one or two provinces though, correct? Multiple attacks, your armies (well not all of them) could probably were somewhat smaller than the enemy too. My 'turteling' technique has taught me to always invade with a larger army, guess I'm going to have to rethink things. Ah yes, my newly loved and previously under appreciated shinobmiesters!

[Jef Costello]

That's an interesting technique...I'll have to try it. I assumed if there was a border fort in the province, which there was in my situation, the shinobi would be caught. On an aside, Shimazu beat me in a campaign once using naval landings, I was shocked. He moved and army behind my lands via ports to an undefended 'troop producer' province I had, wiping it out. I moved a nearby army into it to take it back and on the next turn before we engaged, he moved that same army into another 'troop producer' wiping that out too! I gave up on frustration! The dumb AI beat me! Next campaign I had ninja and shinobi in all my port cities in preparation though!

I find the AI rarely if ever uses port provinces. When I moved up to expert level I started leaving garrisons in all port provinces but I still find the enemy rearely attacks through the port unless it also has a land frontier.

Usually I like to have a powerful province in my rear with a port and the best troop building facilities that I can afford. When the borders with other clans start to look too troop heavy then I like to build up a force to hit as many enemy port provinces as possible in one move. Even if you don't hold the provinces you can burn down enough infrastructure to give yourself thousands of koku and leave your enemy with a long and expensive rebuilding programme as well as troop shortages. Swarming shinobi into provinces to cause rebellions is always fun. I like to try to get a clan to reemerge but they rarely last.

[chaouki]

up to now the AI never attacked my port provinces, since i usually build ports in every possible province for shipping armys and the koku income this would have been devastating

[Togakure]

On very rare occasions on Expert (so rare that they might as well never do it), the western clans (Mori and Shimazu I remember clearly) will send very small armies (3-5 units tops) via a port to port attack (usually Kawachi or Owari), particularly if their front is approaching central Japan and they have no port yet to land troops near the front. It doesn't happen often, and the attack is almost never effective unless the port is undefended or garrisoned with only an ashigaru or two.

Because the AI rarely uses them, I use port attacks only if the alternative is a long, un-fun grind to finish a game that I have pretty much won. But, they are there and this is single-player, so if you enjoy the game using them, I say use them.

[gollum]

The single time the AI port raided me, was during a Shimazu campaign in expert. I had just swept the Imagawa from Kyushu and had decided i would turtle and build up in MI. Out of the blue Mori landed a smallish but able stack in Chikuzen(or is it Chikugo? - the Kyushu province with the river), that gave me a shock and a headache as i hadn't rushed too quickly the Imagawa and it took quite a while and a few bloody battles to kick them out. By the time i had won, and upon receiving the attack, i was very short on troops and so the attack did infact had chances of suceeding or producing undesired side effects like say an attack from Mori through the weakened Nagato route.

So yes, very rare, but in MI it can happen. Never saw it in the original version.