How to win as Oda?

[Metalhead3004]

Every time I try a campaign as Oda I get attacked from all sides be it rebels or rival clans. I can win with Shimazu or Mori (having the advantage of starting in a corner with the former and monkrushing with the latter) on normal, but with Oda I get owned.

[Togakure]

Ten tips of the top of my head:

1) Take advantage of cheap guns and the +1 honor bonus in Owari (gunners are ashigaru). Use them well (ranks three deep for rotating fire; backed by yari sams to prevent cavalry strikes). Learn to protect them well and maneuver effectively.
2) Take Yamashiro to use the +1 honor bonus there (I prefer to produce Yari Samurai there because it's the only region that can give YS a bonus (not related to a building).
3) Secure a 5-6 province front (I prefer Kawachi-Harima-Tajima in the west and Echizen-Mino-Owari in the east). Use castles to reduce the number of troops required to effectively defend.
4) Choose a direction (west or east; I usually go east because it's richer and there are fewer provinces--and the threat is usually bigger). Conquer that side of Japan while effectively defending central Japan. At first, you can use chevauchee (take a province, destroy what's there, back out without trying to hold it), particularly against developed provinces that the enemy is using to produce troops. You can even send "suicide" armies deep into enemy territory to destroy their key production regions.
5) infest the areas surrounding your borders with shinobi. If provinces are taken they are more likely to revolt, shifting focus towards the rebels and away from you.
6) optional: use assassins to take out generals, heirs, and daimyo, particularly if you are allied and stand a good chance to inherit their provinces.
7) central Japan is fairly rich if you invest in farming; you can also build a lot of ports.
8) train up or bribe 4-star generals for all your crucial defense points.
9) spend on dojo improvements (+1 honor = +1 Attack, +1 Def, and +2 Morale) rather than on swordsmiths (+1 Attack) and armories (+1 Def, +1 Armor) and palaces (+1 morale); they don't really give you equivalent bang for the koku.
10) Don't turtle too much; if you sit in central Japan without dealing with one side or another aggressively, you'll eventually be in a pinch (literally ...). That being said, "timing is everything ...."

FWIW.

[A Nerd]

I have a quick question...how do you deal with all those warrior monks that will undoubtebly gang up on you early in the game with a small army. I don't remember what the starting territories are in the traditional campaign. That tends to happen to me. Though I don't remember if I attacked a rebel province to the west or just sat in the provinces I controlled from the beginning.

[gollum]

Welcome to the org metalhead3004, enjoy your stay


You can defeat the initial WMs in Yamashiro or Ise, however you need to make a choice; one or the other. There are lots of starts that can be done, a typical one for example is as follows:

Take over Ise, by using all your troops in Yamato, Kii, Iga, Omi (and some from Owari) together with the Daimyo (Nobuhide). The rebels of Yamashiro will take over the empty provinces however that suits Oda since Ise is very rich and it makes up for the lost provinces while at the same time it and Owari need far fewer troops to defend them. Next is build up your losses asap and attack Yamashiro which should be weakened in troop numbers from the rebels spreading out. Then you can have a continuous territory from Owari to Omi to Yamashiro to Kawachi. All this needs speed, otherwise Mori might get ideas in the West - make an alliance with him while you beat on the rebels. After the rebels in Yamashiro fall you are set up to mop up the rest of the rebels or ignore them and deal with the Imagawa or the Mori (you can do a pre-emptive strike in Mimasaka to slow their build up before heading northeast).

There can be endless variants of this with the Oda as the early game is fluid and very much dependent on the successes or failures of battles. Luckily Nobuhide gets quickly a heir.

After you set up in central Japan and you play MI/WE then you can do all sorts of things go either northeast of southwest or even stay in and turtle, building up your income and troops/tech etc before you make a decisive move or even play a subterfuge heavy game. Central Japan is fairly defendable with rivers in Owari and kawachi and Mountains in Mino and Tamba.

Nerd: defeating the WMs with yari Ashigaru and archers and the Daimyo, can be done assuming you play them en masse and you outnumber the enemy. Use mass and strength of numbers.

[A Nerd]

That's great! I never thought about using the 'pull out of a province' technique with Oda. I used it with Uesugi all the time, but never with Oda. I had won the Oda campaign on hard several times but I don't remember the technique. Noting my strategic and tactical brilliance those foolish warrior monks will soon fall to me seemingly inept and cowardly conscriptial ashigaru!

[Jef Costello]

Some great advice so far. I'd agree with it all. What difficulty level are you playing on? AI is more aggressive on higher levels. I would take/hold Owari and kawagucho and get yamashiro. Ise and Kii are good and you also have an armoury province there too. If you want to take the central area be quick, you don't want to tie up troops down there.
With Ashigaru you basically have to make sure they don't really do anything, they even get scared chasing down routing troops. Ashigaru need upgrades and a good general. personally I never build any.
I normally play with 60 man units which makes reinforcing quicker.
In general you should expect to win all of your defensive battles with rebels. archers on a high elevation and some ashigaru in case they charge you. Careful about chasing them when they rout because WM have a habit of turning around and slaughtering ashigaru.
And when battles are tight don't use the speed up, I have messed myself up so many times doing that :)

[Kagemusha]

post enough forces on your borders (preferably ashi´s and archers as ashi´s are dirt cheap).Save bit of money and bribe those monks. You will gain a nice core troops for your army from them.

[A Nerd]

Last time I played an Oda campaign the difficulty was set at hard. I'll take all of the above advice though, Oda seems like an entertaining campaign as I again wet my feet into that placid pool of shogunistitude. Soon you can all refer to me as Nerdy Nobunaga!

[ReluctantSamurai]

Depends on which campaign you play. 1530 and 1550 give you some time to consolidate and secure a hold on central Japan, as the main opposition is usually rebels. SJ is a bit more fluid and you will more than likely be in conflict with Tokugawa early on. 1580 will see you on the defensive, early on. Takeda and Tokugawa will have an alliance and come after you early and hard (as an example, see my last Oda 1580 campaign...Nobunaga's Ambition, with all the screenies).

The particulars are certainly up to you and your style of play.....much good advice has already been given. I can only add that:

1. You must be decisive. Turtling is rarely an option. If you don't have a clear plan for expansion, and follow it aggressively, you will find yourself fighting a two-front war that will be extremely difficult to win.

2. You must have patience. In central Japan, with potential enemies on all sides, it can get frustrating to be on the defensive...especially in the 1580 campaign. It will be somewhat difficult to blitz as the resources are scarce at the start, and expanding both north and south will be nearly impossible.

3. Muskets are the great equalizer for Oda. Get them ASAP! My own strategy usually consists of having defensive armies that rely heavily on the musket to hold the frontier while I build up my counterattack. When I've bled the enemy white with casualties, I strike back and sweep several provinces at a time. One thing Oda is blessed with is good generals. Use them aggressively. It's not uncommon for me to have at least a half dozen 4-star generals and a couple of 5-star by mid-campaign. Being well-led as such, often tips the battle to me whereas a lesser general might have had a more difficult time. That is one of the keys to using Ashigaru...they are less likely to rout. Many folks don't like Ashi, but if you use them wisely, they can be of tremendous use. I usually have a handful of 'elite' Ashi in defensive armies even late in the game. I've had them withstand WM's and just about anything else that gets thrown at them. So don't underestimate them.

[A Nerd]

So you convert to Christianity? Do you still use warrior monks? I heard you could still be Christian and use them. I've also heard their is a difference in the proficiency of the Portoguese and Dutch rifle units, is this true? If it is, how so? Never converted myself...too much of an infantry buff!

[Jef Costello]

I think Oda starts as christian in 1580. Shimazu certainly does (my current campaign) although he starts with his population at 0% christian which slows any expansion as you need to keep garrisons to prevent rebellions early on. I forgot about gun :). I like to have a row of archers behind my guns as back up and some infantry just in case. For the most part rebels run at the sight of guns but with a good general or a bit of cavalry they can surprise you.

[gollum]

Hi NordA Nobunaga,
there is no difference in performance between Portuguese and Dutch guns as far as i know. And by the way teppos (guns) are infantry units ;)

Once you get the hang of them, you'll be able to breeze through the campaign. In MI/WE guns are very very powerful - almost thrice more as powerful as in the original edition. For those who want to change that they can mod the gun stats to be closer to what the balance was intended.

Yari Ashigaru can beat Monks assuming you outnumber them, assuming that the honor levels aren't too different (not 1 honor YA versus 3 honor WMs) that you use them all at once (don't split your forces), make use of flanking, keep close to the fighting line your Daimyo/general, and shoot the monks some with archers prior and even perhaps during engagement. Especially honor 1 ashigaru that Oda get out of Owari, can do even better.

[A Nerd]

Yeah, I flanked similar honor warrior monks with ashigaru, equal army sizes, about 4 unit a piece, he had all monks I had one archer and three ashigaru. Honor levels the same 0-2. I hit them with arrows on the approach and up the hill, engaged what was left with ashigaru in the front and flanked with the other two from both sides. I won by the way.

[Metalhead3004]

These are all great tips, which I'm going to try out right now. Thanks for the help.

[ReluctantSamurai]

So you convert to Christianity? Do you still use warrior monks? I heard you could still be Christian and use them.

ASAP. Only when I play as Mori. Yes.

I never wait for the Dutch. By the time they arrive, I've already got muskets. IMHO, monks are overrated for what they cost. Yes there's the whole 'carrying their temples with them' thing that supposedly strikes fear into Christian hearts, but my teppo and archers cut them down in droves all the same. I prefer NoDachi...faster, with better attack stats. You can produce both. If you capture existing facilities from an enemy.

I've also heard their is a difference in the proficiency of the Portoguese and Dutch rifle units, is this true?

No. You are perhaps assuming the Gun Factory produces better guns (the manual says they do...but it isn't so).

Never converted myself...too much of an infantry buff!

You will find the later campaigns as Oda, verrrry difficult to play without teppo. As I stated in another thread....the ultimate nightmare campaign would be to play Oda 1580 with no guns

For the most part rebels run at the sight of guns but with a good general or a bit of cavalry they can surprise you.

I have a little technique I use for taking down enemy cav with teppo. I first bait them with Cav archers who gradually fall back towards my waiting teppo (who are in 2 lines instead of the usual 3, are in loose formation, and FaW is off). When the CA are backed up against the muskets, they wheel and retreat through. The muskets then close ranks and fire. At such close range, and with a complete volley from all guns, the effect is devastating. The CA then wheel back around and charge, often in conjunction with another flanking unit. Not too many units can withstand this. It requires delicate timing but the effect is very pleasing, although not to the AI

to A Nerd:

here's an indication at how powerful guns can be (and these have stats altered to be as close to the original as possible)

From my 'Nobunaga's Ambition' campaign. Note the # of kills by the muskets, and the carpet of bodies on, and on both sides of the bridge.....

https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg1...=640&ysize=480

And from the same campaign.....who says Ashi can't fight? Check out the kills racked up by my two ashi units:

https://imgcash3.imageshack.us/Himg5...=640&ysize=480

[gollum]

Minor correction: the WMs are supposed to strike fear to biddhist hearts and have no effect on Christian armies, according to the manual.

[ReluctantSamurai]

I stand corrected. Been a long time since I've read the manual, anyways

[gollum]

It has been long suspected that they don't, however the MTW engine iirc has this option, so its possible that it was present in STW too.

[Togakure]

When I play a gun game I just keep my monks and step up garrisons/secret police where needed. If I can have both, why not? That being said, nods work just fine in the shock troop role too.

iirc:
Unit charged by WM, -2 morale
Unit fired upon by arrows, -2 morale
Unit fired upon by guns (any type) -6 morale

The real power of guns is the effect on morale, not the damage they do.

[gollum]

There are other routes to take with the Oda, besides taking the centre first of course. By far the most ludicrous one is striking northeast. I mean, take out Imagawa, then takeda, then hojo then uesugi then work southwest (as hinted by Masamune), and leave Ise and yamashiro be until you have conquered the northeast. However, it is also risky, and requires fast action and skill and luck in battle. It is even riskier in 1.12 original, because of the high infrastructure costs (that do not apply to the AI especially for expert). I've had success in the past with this route - i managed something like total domination by 1552 (expert/1.12/120men). The first 10 years of the campaign were incredibly intense and epic.

[TWD]

Hey all !

(Re)installed Shogun recently, played as the Sengoku Oda a lot, searched through forums for fancy strategies a bit, found this thread and registered :)

With Ashigaru you basically have to make sure they don't really do anything, they even get scared chasing down routing troops. Ashigaru need upgrades and a good general. personally I never build any.

Well, may I respectfully express the most complete disagreement, here ? :D

Ashis are arguably the best unit in the game. And Oda's Ashis are very special.
Yes, the best ! (and yes, arguably...)

1- Ashis are the cheapest units in the game ;
2- Ashis are the fastest runners on foot ;
3- Ashis slaughter cavalry.

1- Cheapest means :
- You can pump 4 a year out of your initial castle, which is not the case for other units. This provides you with massive reinforcements to fund your expansion AND lets you invest your kokus in farms, large castles, etc. Once in a while, you can build an archer, if your economy lets you.
- Ashis are excellent to garrison newly conquered provinces. Better use a 100 koku unit than an archer, right ? The alternative would be to use a spy, but it requires you to invest time & money in building the shinobi house, whereas garrisonned Ashis provide you with fast reinforcement to your front lines.
- If the losses of a battle are about equal, the Ashi user is tremendously ahead in kokus invested & lost : your Ashis fight units costing 2 to 5 times their price !
- You can plainly sacrifice a unit once in a while. Say... for crossing a bridge.
- You can have so many Ashis that you can use them to cover your lowly protected striking force (No-dachis). Having a few elite units that don't get flanked and overwhelmed sounds better than a bit more that do get decimated by ennemy archers & runners.

2- Fastest runners :
- Sooooo easy to maneuver & flank ennemy units. You can deal a lot of damage very fast.
- When you've routed the ennemy, you can keep on decimating them. That's so many units you won't have to face later on.

3- Slaughter cavalry :
Cavs are amongst the most fearful units in the game, no ? And when you're facing infantry, you should have ranged support.
This means that an army composed almost exclusively of Ashis and Archers can compete with almost anything (right numbers & general provided).

This starts to make some (debatable ?) points.


As for Oda, their Ashis, as mentionned above, are special.
The clear point is that they cost less to train and maintain. This basically strenghten what Ashis are already the best at : being cheap.
The less obvious point is that Owari is specialised in Ashigaru production. This is as if you started with a Sword Dojo when playing Shimazu : dreadful !
You can start building a farm or a port in Owari, right. But if you expand, you can build farms elsewhere. So you can also go : Large Castle, Famous Sword Dojo, Palace, Armoury. 14 seasons after the start of the game, you pump 4 Ashis a year with 2 honour, enhanced weapons & morale... I can tell you they're pretty good vs most of the field at that time...


Feel free to disagree :)

[Togakure]

Well put, TWD, and welcome to the Org/Sword Dojo. I am not the master ashi user here, but I do use them for 1) garrisons, 2) maintaining parity with enemy troop numbers on my borders to dissuade attack, and 3) arrow fodder on bridge assaults or in attack vanguard escorting shock troops as you described. Only in the Oda campaigns do I use them in combat often, but this may be because I got used to not using them at all online (they were forbidden because early on, players discovered that you could honor/upgrade them up to level 7-9 and make them "Super-Ashis," which could defeat just about anything for the koku, and broke the combat system).

You are using the Huge setting for unit size? I'd not considered the point you make that when using this setting, ashis are the only combat unit you can produce in a single turn. This is very interesting and something I will take advantage of when I finally get off my butt and play a Huge unit game (I play the standard unit size; that's what we almost always used in multi-player so I got used to it).

Their weakness is low morale, so keeping their morale up is key to success when using them. Sending a unit off on its own is usually a death sentence (but can be very useful in drawing the enemy out of formation, particularly archers for your cav to eat when they stray too far), but if you keep them together with flanks/rear protected, they can do some amazing things. A high-honor taisho is pretty much necessary if facing an enemy with a good general. I very rarely build combat improvements other than dojos, but an exception is palaces and swordsmiths in Owari/Tosa (I tend to produce only one type of unit in any given province except early on in my capital, and if I control the bonus province, I produce them there).

Ashis don't slaughter cav as readily as YS, but can certainly tie them up long enough for other units to come and help clean up. When I was playing the SamWars mod for MTW online, I often used an army of 4 gunners, 4 ashigaru, 3-4 monks, and 3-4 yari cav, and would put the ashis in pairs on either flank, slightly behind the gun line (back far enough not to take too many stray hits from gunfire, but close enough to protect the gunners from cavalry raids). Surprisingly, this worked very well when they were supported by the cav units if things got dicey. I also used them to tie up tough units for a short time, buying time for my other, better but preoccupied units to get there and deal with the problem. The SamWars mod eliminated the problem of "Super-Ashis" by making upgrades unnecessary and cost-prohibitive.

Thanks for your input, and again, Welcome.

[DEB8]

post enough forces on your borders (preferably ashi´s and archers as ashi´s are dirt cheap).Save bit of money and bribe those monks. You will gain a nice core troops for your army from them.

This one worked for me. I did buy a few YS though. The rebels will not attack for some time, particularly if you leave a YA as a "garrison" in the provences adjacent to ISE & Yamashiro. I then attack west first as Owari & Mino are great to defend.

[DEB8]

If you play on the old STW ( 1.12 version ) you cannot bribe anyone...

so here you must build up your forces and attack Ise & Yamashiro ( preferably in that order ).
Again maintain a small YA garrison in the next door provinces or the Rebels will attack, more likely here than with STW-WE. Build an armoury and a swordsmith and get ND. Match ND : WM and SA : SA and add a couple of YA ( at +1 honour ). Silver armour and improved weapons ( for the ND ) with a +1 or +2 general and you will beat the WM easy even with similar army numbers. Otherwise as posted for WE.

[gollum]

Indeed in 1.12 you cannot bribe with emissaries (that is another point of attraction for me) and Ashigaru take 2 turns to build. They cost however 1/2 a koku to maintain (unlike other infantry that cost 1koku and cavalry that cost 2 koku). I haven't played MI/WE for ages now, so can't remember how long they take to build there. In any case, yes, ashigaru can be used en masse and flank en masse at the opening stages of the game, and they are devastating as such. From the middle game onwards they need to be used a little less as the other clans get more advanced troops and an ashigaru heavy army may not do the same impression.

[Kagemusha]

This one worked for me. I did buy a few YS though. The rebels will not attack for some time, particularly if you leave a YA as a "garrison" in the provences adjacent to ISE & Yamashiro. I then attack west first as Owari & Mino are great to defend.

Nice to see same kind of thinking from other players. With Ise and Yamashiro in Oda control ones powerbase is solid.From there on it is just matter of opportunity to where to expand.

[A Nerd]

You have to admit, despite the difficutly, Oda is probably the most fun faction to play as!

[Jef Costello]

I've already quit Oda 1580 on expert twice.

The first time was about two turns in when I lost in hina and had another army trapped in hida, so I gave up. Then I tried again today and after taking a beating when 2500 men got sent against me in Owari I lost my temper and quit:)

[A Nerd]

I've never been any good at expert. I could only manage hard. I also heard the 1580 campaign as Oda was extremely difficult. That's why I only play Oda in SJ and at hard at most! I played Shimazu at hard in 1580 and those ronin factions ganging up on you can be a royal pain in the ***!

[Thermal]

Its not so much a matter of winning with them that is the problem (though it is hard)

For me, the lack of expansion of AI oda because of the rebels leaves them dragging behind very quickly, if playing with the senjoku jidai era, the rebels take almost all of there starting regions within 5 turns, due to oda fighting battles they always lose and the rebels taking advantage of there unprotected settlements.

Shimazu is a bit predictable too, Mori should be in 1530 as well to act as a buffer.