Shogun 2 Total War - confirmed

[Mailman653]

It's cause China and Korea are coming in the expansion

[Intranetusa]

As far as weapons are concerned, japanese swords - katanas - are the highest quality hand-to-hand weapons ever produced - metallographic analysis in the highest quality european swords (from Toledo) showed about 200,000 layers of iron/carbon in the steel alloy. The equivalent number for a katana is 1,500,000 - making it a killing tool that hasn't been repeated. Other Japanese blades for yaris (spears) and naginatas (halberts) were of comparable quality.
For me only a single "style" is not a problem especially now that i know a lot about this particular one - although again your assumption is misleading - Sengoku Daimyos were particularly imaginative when tactics and strategy were concerned and were keen inovators in many instances. It was also not a problem in the past when i knew nothing about japan, its history and its warring tradition.
Perhaps your opinion is based on a misunderstanding or lack of understanding - in that case S2 provides a great opportunity to sort this misunderstanding for you - you never know.

Japanese katanas are great, but also greatly overrated. They are really no better than a quality European sword. Katanas weigh the same and have slightly better cutting ability (due to its curved shaped) when compared to a straight European sword.

And any cutting weapon, (ie katana) is totally useless against almost all forms of metal armor. And the katana was also a weapon of last resort for a battlefield samurai - their primary weapon was a bow/arrow, spear, naginata, etc

The forging styles of the katana came from China, transmitted through Korea. And nobody talks about the "quality" of Chinese or Korean swords even though quality swords from those states are basically the same or even superior compared to katanas. Katanas are made with quality because iron is scarce in Japan - whereas the average European sword can be made to be mediocre since iron was plentiful. All in all, katanas are great, but it's mostly hype.


PS - btw, 200,000 vs 1,500,000 folds is meaningless, because their cutting ability is virtually the same. Some quality European swords even have better edge geometry and superior sectional density when compared with a quality Japanese katana.

[gollum]

There is indeed potential for such an expansion, as historically Toyotomi Hideyoshi (the second of the japanese unifiers) decided to try to conquer Korea with part of his samurai army.

[gollum]

Intranetusa, I can see why you are here, so i'll leave it at that :)

Have fun denying, demistfying and generally showing how much you dislike the japanese setting, since it would have been better to choose an 8th century Britain setting where swords are not overhyped etc etc

all yours ;)

[Intranetusa]

Intranetusa, I can see why you are here, so i'll leave it at that :)
Have fun denying, demistfying and generally showing how much you dislike the japanese setting, since it would have been better to choose an 8th century Britain setting where swords are not overhyped etc etc
all yours ;)

It's not that I dislike the Japanese setting. It's I dislike repetative stuff with no creativitiy. My main problem is they already made a Shogun game. Why make another? Why don't they branch out some to at least the rest of East Asia? Japan is an island. Making two games about Japanese Shogun is basically no different than making a TW game about 8th century England, and another about 11th century England - it's the same damn thing.

And my other problem is how the samurai has been elevated to mystical proportions. I commented on your post because in reality, katanas aren't much better than East Asian, European, or Middle Eastern swords. That's a common misconception that has been continually perpetuated by Hollywood and pop media...sorta like the damn lorica segmentata.

[gollum]

Actually - katanas are really far better - there is a reason for the hype, and i can tell you that its not Hollywood based as you think. The point is not to compare katanas with nuclear weapons - clearly katanas will lose - the point is the quality of the sword and its use in regards to the purpose it had to fulfil. many european weapons were designed to do blund damage, because they had no chance of piercing armor - they could though create an internal wound andhemorrage in the wearer by deforming the armor locally (maces etc). The philosophy is different because the conditions were different. In Japan plate metal armor was only reserved for the Daimyos themselves and this because of its ability to stop bullets.

During the feudal era bujutsu - the fighting arts were developed in Japan. These did indeed blend the practical and necessary with the natural and the beautiful - their offshoots: kenjutsu-fencing (and other weapon arts like archery, the art of thespear the art of the halberd), jujutsu and all its derivaties (judo, brazilian jujutsu, aikido) and karate and its prequels and sequels became amazingly popular worldwide for many good reasons: a) because they really work b) because they help one build character and learn self defence at the same time.

As far as the setting is concenred i can't do anything for it if you don;t like it - however i hope that you'll agree that others may like it and wish to enjoy it in its new forum without negations, denying, cynicism and the like.

[A Nerd]

As far as the setting is concenred i can't do anything for it if you don;t like it - however i hope that you'll agree that others may like it and wish to enjoy it in its new forum without negations, denying, cynicism and the like.

You shouldn't argue. What's done is done. Sometimes critisisms provide for valuable opinion, could benefit discussion both positive and negative. :)

[Intranetusa]

Actually - katanas are really far better - there is a reason for the hype, and i can tell you that its not Hollywood based as you think. The point is not to compare katanas with nuclear weapons - clearly katanas will lose - the point is the quality of the sword and its use in regards to the purpose it had to fulfil. many european weapons were designed to do blund damage, because they had no chance of piercing armor - they could though create an internal wound andhemorrage in the wearer by deforming the armor locally (maces etc). The philosophy is different because the conditions were different. In Japan plate metal armor was only reserved for the Daimyos themselves and this because of its ability to stop bullets. During the feudal era bujutsu - the fighting arts were developed in Japan. These did indeed blend the practical and necessary with the natural and the beautiful - their offshoots: kenjutsu-fencing (and other weapon arts like archery, the art of thespear the art of the halberd), jujutsu and all its derivaties (judo, brazilian jujutsu, aikido) and karate and its prequels and sequels became amazingly popular worldwide for many good reasons: a) because they really work b) because they help one build character and learn self defence at the same time. As far as the setting is concenred i can't do anything for it if you don;t like it - however i hope that you'll agree that others may like it and wish to enjoy it in its new forum without negations, denying, cynicism and the like.

I'm not comparing katanas with nuclear weapons. I'm comparing katanas with other swords. Other swords =/= nuclear weapons. Yes, there were plenty of European weapons that was meant to defeat armor through blunt force, but I'm talking about European swords.

High quality European swords are just as good as a katana. And you still haven't given any reason why katanas are better than good quality European swords.

Europe, China, and Korea has plenty of sword based martial arts. Karate actually comes from Okinawa and is a blend of Southern Chinese martial arts with Native Okinawan arts. Sword/weapon based martial arts are not something unique to Japan.

And your discussion about martial arts has nothing to do with your argument that katanas are superior to quality European swords.





All I'm saying is the katana is a good sword, but it's vastly overrated by pop culture and Hollywood. A good European sword or a good Chinese sword is equal to a good katana.

[gollum]

Sometimes they provide valuable opinion, yes. Other times they simply restate the frustration of the critic over and over.

Choosing the same setting twice means little creativity, so M2TW or Rome 2 that will eventually be made, also show little creativity. However, other than the research - they are completely different games. Even the engines although related are not the same and different work will have to be made on mechanics, balancing, the AI, not to mention artwork etc.

However when you dislike the setting, CA are lazy, metallographic analysis pointless and Samurai Hollywood overhyped, period. So yes, maybe i shoudn't argue ;)

[gollum]

Intranetusa, if i may ask: how old are you?

[Intranetusa]

Choosing the same setting twice means little creativity, so M2TW or Rome 2 that will eventually be made, also show little creativity.

Rome Total War has different factions such as Romans, Gauls, Brits, Persians, Egyptians, etc
Medieval Total War has different factions such as the Germans, French, Italian states, Turks, Saracens, etc

Shogun has the same factions - Japanese #1, Japanese #2, and Japanese #3. Shogun TW has nowhere near the diversity of RTW or MTW.

Considering the fact that some scholars don't even use the word "Japanese Warring States" because they were all a single state, and were all just warring clans of a single faction - it's evident there is not nearly enough diversity if they just focus on solely Japan.

Like I said before, Shogun 1 and 2 is basically making an England 8th century TW game, and then making an England 11th century TW game.



-----------

And again, to address the sword issue:


I'm not comparing katanas with nuclear weapons. I'm comparing katanas with other swords. Other swords =/= nuclear weapons. Yes, there were plenty of European weapons that was meant to defeat armor through blunt force, but I'm talking about European swords.

High quality European swords are just as good as a katana. And you still haven't given any reason why katanas are better than good quality European swords.

Europe, China, and Korea has plenty of sword based martial arts. Karate actually comes from Okinawa and is a blend of Southern Chinese martial arts with Native Okinawan arts. Sword/weapon based martial arts are not something unique to Japan.

And your discussion about martial arts has nothing to do with your argument that katanas are superior to quality European swords.

All I'm saying is the katana is a good sword, but it's vastly overrated by pop culture and Hollywood. A good European sword is equal to a good katana.

[gollum]

Too bad for you then, and too good for me :)

Pitty you won't enjoy this :) - you'll have to wait 2 long years until the next title... until then you can be our resident troll: fine by me :)

[Intranetusa]

until then you can be our resident troll: fine by me :)

As expected, you have been unable to answer even a single one of my questions.

You are unable to defend your Romanticized view of the katana being a godlike sword, or the samurai being mystical undefeatable warriors.
And you haven't even addressed my argument that Shogun:TW is not nearly as diverse as RTW or MTW in terms of factions and creativity.

All you've done is resort to petty ad hominem attacks.

[gollum]

ad hominem attacks are my specialty ;)

[Intranetusa]

ad hominem attacks are my specialty ;)

Ok. :D

I hope CA at least makes the the AI decent, then I will still buy it and wait for mods that might add new land like the rest of East Asia...

[A Nerd]

I hope CA at least makes the the AI decent, then I will still buy it and wait for mods that might add new land like the rest of East Asia...

Agreed. I would like it moddable of course...expansion pack and not just mods of the rest of asia would be nice too! Everybody loves those Mongols!

[Gregoshi]

Like I said before, Shogun 1 and 2 is basically making an England 8th century TW game, and then making an England 11th century TW game.

Not really. STW and S2TW are separated by 10 years of technology improvements and 8 additional games/expansion worth of experience and game engine improvements. STW being the first laid the foundation, but so much more can be done with the setting now that were undreamed of back then. The hope is to apply the new without ruining the good of the original. They appear to recognize that in the article. I can only hope the final product is a nice blend of the new and the original.

BTW, diversity doesn't make a game good. Neither does sameness. Great graphics and realistic sounds don't either. The game has to be fun to play and everything else is icing on the cake.

[Gregoshi]

You are unable to defend your Romanticized view of the katana being a godlike sword, or the samurai being mystical undefeatable warriors.

To be fair, your counter to gollum's argument on the katana was no better. He said/he said. No links or references from either of you. It's a draw. On to the next point gentlemen.

[Intranetusa]

Agreed. I would like it moddable of course...expansion pack and not just mods of the rest of asia would be nice too! Everybody loves those Mongols!

Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life?
Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair.
Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life?
Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good.

Mongols pwn everybody...

BTW, diversity doesn't make a game good. Neither does sameness. Great graphics and realistic sounds don't either. The game has to be fun to play and everything else is icing on the cake.

Perhaps. If they make a dramatic leap in gameplay, it might be worth it. (mainly creating a battle AI that doesn't suck - ie. charging their cavalry general into your line of spearmen in the first 5 minutes, or a campaign AI that also doesn't suck - ie. a bankrupt faction 1/10 your size breaking their alliance and attacking your full stack elites with 5 units of levies)

If the gameplay-AI isn't given a huge overhaul, playing and fighting the same Japanese factions over and over again isn't exactly my cup of tea... :/

[gollum]

Originally posted by Intratenusa
I hope CA at least makes the the AI decent, then I will still buy it and wait for mods that might add new land like the rest of East Asia...

You could even mod in 8th century Britain

[Intranetusa]

To be fair, your counter to gollum's argument on the katana was no better. He said/he said. No links or references from either of you. It's a draw. On to the next point gentlemen.

Well, his argument was that katanas are much better than good Euro swords. My argument was basically that, no, they are not much better.

He is the one making a statement. So the burden of proof mainly falls on him - he needs to prove that katanas are better than quality European swords in the first place.

[A Nerd]

You could even mod in 8th century Britain

With Samurai however.

All arguments aside, this has turned into quite an interesting thread!

[Intranetusa]

You could even mod in 8th century Britain

Nah, 8th century Britain isn't much better than 15th century Japan. In fact, I'd say it's probably even more boring.
I'd prefer a truly diverse and expansive empire - ie. Byzantines, Muslim Caliphate, or the Tang.

[Gregoshi]

He is the one making a statement. So the burden of proof mainly falls on him - he needs to prove that katanas are better than quality European swords in the first place.

And you would be right if you just ask for sources. However, you made your own statement and thus shouldered the burden of proof with him. Very sporting of you.

[gollum]

This is but one of many links:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

Reproducing from the part The Samurai's sword:
"As a sword, the Japanese katana is unmatched in its sharpness and cutting power."

I gave up on the "argument" as "dont feed the troll" is a maxim i hold to, once i realise one behaves as such



edit: not to mention that those who throw "arguments" because they don't really know what they are talking about but do so for a war of impressions, aren't all that sportive at all.

[Gregoshi]

You just can't take things too serious. We are talking about a game - not even that - a game announcement.

[Intranetusa]

This is but one of many links:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
Reproducing from the part The Samurai's sword:
"As a sword, the Japanese katana is unmatched in its sharpness and cutting power."
I gave up on the "argument" as "dont feed the troll" is a maxim i hold to, once i realise one behaves as such

edit: not to mention that those who throw "arguments" because they don't really know what they are talking about but do so for a war of impressions, aren't all that sportive at all.

From the same link, just further down the page:

"[katana] is not quite the "ultimate sword" some of its ardent admirers occasionally build it up as. The katana's exceptionally hard edge was prone to chipping and needed frequent re-polishing and its blade could break or bend the same as any other sword might (...and no, they won't slice through cars or chop into concrete pillars either). It was not designed to take a great deal of abuse, and is not as resilient in flexibility nor intended to directly oppose soft or hard armors as some forms of Medieval swords had to be. "

[gollum]

Only that you are saying this to the wrong guy Gregoshi:)

Again you are making a war of impressions. I talked about the exact same thing just before. Nothing is "ultimate" against everything - but it can be ultimate in its role and category.For a sword such a role is cuting. And a metallographic analysis shows jst that: the quality of themetal that translates directly into sharpness and cuting power. You said that katanas cut the same as european swords but the point of the text (and other similar texts) is that katana is a far better quality weapon for its class and purpose, as far as cuting is concerned.

However the point is that you are making a war of impressions - and who wouldn't at this stage if you have taken it so far. So lets just let it be becaues in all probability you are some very young person, and this sort of behaviour and stance is as forgivable as unworthy.

Throwing the ball to the others and feeling clever with that (whle you have no clue yourself), picking up points of disagreement and create an argument that fits ours etc is trolling - so: be my guest and troll all you want ;)

[A Nerd]

Ah, what a lively bunch. Warring clans are forming already...to arms men, to arms!

[Intranetusa]

This is but one of many links:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm
Reproducing from the part The Samurai's sword:
"As a sword, the Japanese katana is unmatched in its sharpness and cutting power."
I gave up on the "argument" as "dont feed the troll" is a maxim i hold to, once i realise one behaves as such

edit: not to mention that those who throw "arguments" because they don't really know what they are talking about but do so for a war of impressions, aren't all that sportive at all.

Another paragraph from the same link:

"Surprisingly, the longsword or greatsword is arguably a more complex weapon that the katana. Though there were single-edge versions, it generally has two edges that can be used, as well as a versatile crossguard and pommel permitting a variety of specialized techniques....

"...Knightly blades could be excellent swords, but are often denigrated merely as crude hunks of iron while samurai swords are venerated and exalted sometimes to the point of absurdity by collectors and enthusiasts (something the Japanese themselves do not discourage). Bad films and poorly trained martial artists reinforce this myth. The bottom line is that Medieval swords were indeed well-made, light, agile fighting weapons equally capable of delivering dismembering cuts or cleaving deep into body cavities. They were far from the clumsy, heavy things they're often portrayed as in popular media and far, far more than a mere "club with edges."Interestingly, the weight of katanas compared to longswords is very close with each on average being less than 4 pounds. "


Your own source says that the katana is exaggerated by movies while European swords are underrated.