Unit Speculation?

[General Malaise]

In another thread I brought up how I would prefer to see the units done, which was component customization rather than pre-configured static units. However, since they most certainly won't do this I was wondering how exactly there are planning to get 30-40 units in Shogun without coming up with nonsense. After doing some research and fiddling around, I came up with the below:



Now, this is being very generous with what weapons were actually commonly used and by what kind of troop, and this also comes out to 30, which is ten less then their maximum total but still 10 more than what they claimed would be per faction (which was 20). Ergo, I'm wondering what you all think of this, meaning:
1) How do you think CA will *actually* end up implementing troop types in Shogun?
And
2) How would you rather *prefer* them to implement troop types?

I bring this up in its own thread since unit type, in terms of value, balance, and versimilitude is personally a dealbreaker for me on this game and it seems to be like that for some others too, especially old-timers. Have I missed something or got something inaccurate on my chart (besides the names, which aren't too much of a big deal) or do you think we'll end up getting stuck with reskins and/or pure fantasy troops? If it's moddable, which it really *ought* to be, how would you mod it if it was, assuming you would?

[Tera]

You might have just guessed some of the new units there!

CA will surely use anything which is historically sound. Units like Teppo Samurai and Archer/Crossbow Ashigaru are both historically accurate and excellent tactical additions.

I think that after milking the history cow as much as possible, CA will resort to some, so to say, 'twisting' like:
Heavy Cavalry Archers (more expensive and armoured mounted archers)
Light Cavalry (fast units like Yari Cavalry but using swords)
Samurai Infantry (basic katana-wielding samurai troop, fitting in unit balance between Yari Samurai and No-Dachi)

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I would like to see Masamune Date style Teppo Cavalry men. :D That would make me very happy.... XD

[General Malaise]

Huh, I didn't come across anything about teppo from horseback. Seems like it would be clumsy to shoot and difficult if not impossible to reload. Where'd you read about this out of curiosity? Did they actually shoot while moving or was it more dragoon style where'd the would ride to battle or around the field and mostly get off to actually shoot?

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Huh, I didn't come across anything about teppo from horseback. Seems like it would be clumsy to shoot and difficult if not impossible to reload. Where'd you read about this out of curiosity? Did they actually shoot while moving or was it more dragoon style where'd the would ride to battle or around the field and mostly get off to actually shoot?

Where I read it, well I can't actually cite the source on that lol. But I have read about Teppo being used from horseback. Primarilly Masamune Date's forces. They would have functioned like Dragoon's I imagined. I think they were at the Battle of Osaka under Masamune Date.

The Date and the Shimazu clan both had pretty good gunpowder units. Shimazu used to toss a Yumi bow archer in the unit to act as a sniper basically lol. XD As the Yumi was still more accurate.

[Kagemusha]

It wasnt just Date and Shimazu. Samurai started to adopt teppo more and more during the end of the period. So they would move on horseback and fight on foot.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

It wasnt just Date and Shimazu. Samurai started to adopt teppo more and more during the end of the period. So they would move on horseback and fight on foot.

Indeed! I only cited them for some of their unique takes on the weapon. The Hosokawa clan sponsored a smith in Kunimoto who made superb fire arms. :D And Sorin Otomo, the Catholic Daimyo in Kyushu had cannons in his keep. There were lots of gunpowder weapons being used and made, and lots of people were doing work to gain expertise in the field of firearms. A time period of change for sure.

I hope the gameplay of Shogun 2 will reflect this. :D

[seienchin]

In another thread I brought up how I would prefer to see the units done, which was component customization rather than pre-configured static units. However, since they most certainly won't do this I was wondering how exactly there are planning to get 30-40 units in Shogun without coming up with nonsense. After doing some research and fiddling around, I came up with the below:

Well samurai didnt fight separated by their weapons. It was perfectly normal having a samurai with a naginata standing next to one with two katanas.
My guess is that this will be one of the new features: Mixed units.
Off course there at the end of sengoku jidai wise generals grooped their samurais according to their weapons, but it wasnt something most generals focused on. The exception beeing guns and yari ashigaru, because this was their most common weapon.

Anyway I am expecting units mixed with clubs, swords and bows. My dreams would come true, if you could let a champion of your army challenge one of the other army for a duell, like it was common in early sengoku jidai.

By the way. Tetsubo is just like daikatana a word creation that didnt exist in sengoku jidai. Its called kanasaibo in japanese.

[General Malaise]

This thread is getting too de-railed into historical discussion. I'm aware of the mixed unit thing, however I don't think they will do this and I personally hope they do not. I'd much prefer the tactical options and considerations that come from staying with one weapon to a unit rather than complete historical accuracy. If I was being really accurate I wouldn't have put up the nodachi, nagamaki, kanabo/tetsubo, or ono/masakari at all since they were very rarely used in actual battles.

Historically accurate sengoku jidai warfare is basically going to be push-of-pikes (yari) plus guns with some naginata and yumi thrown in and that's about it. Real warfare in general is very boring, repetitive, and random. Verisimilitude and immersion is important to me in a game, hence my concern about very silly units like battlefield ninja again, but total factuality is not (and is better avoided). Another way to put it is to give options that a daimyo theoretically could have employed and *feel* real on a battlefield, like simply equipping your samurai with nagamaki even though it was actually rare, as opposed to units that have semi-magical powers like hiding in plain sight.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I as well was kinda off put by the "Battlefield Ninja" of the original. Fantasy units don't really do much for me..... XD

I am actually okay with Battlefield Ninja. But they would have to be altered. Ninja in battle would be given a highly specialized role. And in fact, some "ninja" were merely superb marksmen. So throw a lot of Ninja marksmen into a unit, and you have a excellent squad of marksmen. Other ninja would specialize in demolition. Basically they'd just be a highly skilled unit for a specific mission. They'd also have to be costly, hard to tech up to, and a small in their unit numbers.

Sticking close to history is very important for me, and the more accurate it is the better. But hopefully we will have options Sengoku commanders didn't explore much. Like units of kanasaibo and nagamaki. :D As well as No-Daichi. I enjoyed the No-Daichi from the original Shogun Total War. :D

The black masked, robed, battlefield ninjas were a bit much.... XD I rarely used them. Regular troops were far more effective. Totally ruling out rare or fantasy units though might create a less enjoyable experience though. The battlefield ninjas and kensai were.... XD Hmmm.... I always thought using them was, I didn't enjoy it anyhow... XD

Hopefully hero characters are less ridiculous than Kensai. But somehow, I see them being a lot like the kensai. Hopefully there's not a ton of them.

Mostly I just can't wait to see my armies of Samurai sweeping across Japan. XD

[General Malaise]

I'm pretty sure I read that hero units would be attached to a unit, like the little unit commanders from Rome on are, who have different armor and/or carry the banner. So, for now, I'm not *too* worried about them as they also said they'd largely be about providing morale bonuses.

As for guns from horseback, if they functioned like dragoons, I'm not sure how this would work in STW2. Unless the battlefields are huge, they generally aren't big enough to make riding to the battle, then getting off to shoot, then back on to ride away, really viable or sensible in my opinion. Although, perhaps dragoon-like units would just have better movement points or whatever on the strat map and shoot on foot in the tactical map. That would be neat.


EDIT: Unrelated, by why is it this forum seems pretty dead in comparison to twcenter and official one? I tried reading over there but most of the posts gave me migraines...

[antisocialmunky]

Making every cavalry unit dismountable would be nice as that's how cavalry operated for the most part during the period IIRC.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

I'm pretty sure I read that hero units would be attached to a unit, like the little unit commanders from Rome on are, who have different armor and/or carry the banner. So, for now, I'm not *too* worried about them as they also said they'd largely be about providing morale bonuses.

As for guns from horseback, if they functioned like dragoons, I'm not sure how this would work in STW2. Unless the battlefields are huge, they generally aren't big enough to make riding to the battle, then getting off to shoot, then back on to ride away, really viable or sensible in my opinion. Although, perhaps dragoon-like units would just have better movement points or whatever on the strat map and shoot on foot in the tactical map. That would be neat.


EDIT: Unrelated, by why is it this forum seems pretty dead in comparison to twcenter and official one? I tried reading over there but most of the posts gave me migraines...

Ahhh! The Hero's are connected to a unit. Well that is a lot better. :D

I would prefer the Teppo cavalry to act like musket armed cavalry archers, but that's just my preference. Whatever they settle upon will be fine. I'm sure I'll still get some ranged cavalry. :D

[seienchin]

Yeah, having the ability to let every cavallery dismount would be great. As well as having all the servants of the samurai present on the battlefield. On mounted samurai was at least accompanied by 6 servants.

[Sp00n]

I really hope they don't mix unit weapons as it will wreck multiplayer balancing, dismounting cav I can live with but no more, keep it simple as it was before with maybe a few faction specific units, if they overcomplicate it they'll wreck it.

Oh and the less guns the better, otherwise we'll just have the standard turkey shoot MP from NTW dull.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

In MTW the dismounted cavalry couldn't become cavalry again after they dismounted. :O

There will have to be some guns. And since they're not as advanced as the guns in ETW or NTW they won't be the end all of battle quite yet lol. XD So cavalry and infantry will still do good against them. If the environment is a bid variable like in the original STW that would be cool. So then your Yumi Samurai would beat the poor gunners who are operating at 50% effectiveness or less. XD Yumi archers will also be able to use rugged land to their advantage better.

I'm thinking if gunpowder was like it was in MTW 2 Total War that would be okay. It'd be a factor for sure. That way the player could do like Nobunaga at Nagashino. I doubt the AI would. I also doubt the player vs. player would become dominated by guns. But it's hard to tell. I dunno.

I like guns, and since they played such a role in the Sengoku they should be present in some form. Napleonic armies in the Sengoku would just be ridiculous though.... XD I think it will play out okay. :D

[andrewt]

Well, if the different factions will have different unit rosters, I wouldn't mind some units having more than one version. For example, instead of the Takeda having a 25% discount on cavalry like in the original, maybe they would have a more powerful version of yari cavalry or something to that effect. Of course, the differences would have to be more pronounced than in RTW, MTW2 and ETW.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Shingen could very well have unique names for his cavalry. (As well as enhanced training and superior equipment.) Translating into higher attack and defense. :D

[A Nerd]

Concerning the sohei units. Could they not be varied depending on the branch of buddhism they represent. Different weapons and fighting style, etc. Also depending on region, clan religion and buildings availalbe in the tech tree? I apologize if this was mentioned in another thread (for some reason I think it was), I just thought it might be worth mentioning again. Might add to realism in expanding the unit roster.

[Barkhorn1x]

Shingen could very well have unique names for his cavalry. (As well as enhanced training and superior equipment.) Translating into higher attack and defense. :D

This kind of approach is my hope for unit differentation; the basic unit is the same for all factions - but how the player developes them - according to faction capabilities - will provide some variety.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Concerning the sohei units. Could they not be varied depending on the branch of buddhism they represent. Different weapons and fighting style, etc. Also depending on region, clan religion and buildings availalbe in the tech tree? I apologize if this was mentioned in another thread (for some reason I think it was), I just thought it might be worth mentioning again. Might add to realism in expanding the unit roster.

I think Sohei cavalry and infantry should exist. As well as Sohei archers, and Sohei horse archers. :D Sohei fought in diverse ways

[Tsar Alexsandr]

This kind of approach is my hope for unit differentation; the basic unit is the same for all factions - but how the player developes them - according to faction capabilities - will provide some variety.

Yeah that would be interesting. :D It might be fun if Takeda can get something like, "Takeda Tiger cavalry." Or "Elder Tiger mounted spears."

They'll have to do a lot of research into the clans. :D Maybe they could find some cool accurate titles for the clans troops.

[O'Hea]

Personally, I reckon it'll be mostly like the original STW rosters, but with more tiers, and with unique units rather than cost reductions. So instead of having just one type of archer and one type of swordsman and one type of light cavalry, and they just get experience bonuses as you tech up, there would be separate units representing improvements in armor and weapons. I also don't doubt they'll have at least two periods unit-wise, with one being the more classical samurai armies and another showing the post-Nobunaga one that more closely resembled Western armies of the time (Ashigaru armed with pikes and teppos, followed by teppo samurai, etc). Because honestly, the oldschool STW roster was probably more the result of avoiding a lot of unnecessary work making sprites, text entries, and the like for units that are functionally the same as their basic forms than some kind of Zen-inspired design decision. It's only the experience of Empire and Napoleon that's persuaded CA to cut back on unit variety.

[Tsar Alexsandr]

Hmm. Yeah that sounds right. Some Samurai used some pretty old fashioned gear in the begining of the Sengoku jidai. And in the latter Sengoku we saw masses of muskets and cannon used in battle. (With plenty of hand to hand soldiers still in use.)

[caravel]

In MTW the dismounted cavalry couldn't become cavalry again after they dismounted. :O

The problem with dismounts in MTW is that the AI cannot use this feature. If this was to be the case in the S2TW, it would be a bad thing.

[General Malaise]

Since they're using fixed/static and not component-made units, while I am probably in the minority on this, I hope they don't duplicate the weapon types over and over. Granted, it's probably more historically accurate, but then it would be even more accurate to simply have mixed unit weapon types, and that's bad for balance. While not necessarily bad for balance, I don't really see the point of three or four different types of units who all wield the same exact weapon whose only difference is attack/defense when you can increase that through experience or infrastructure buildings anyway. For instance, while both Ashigaru and Samurai wielded all different lengths of yari, I'd rather just have the ashigaru be pikemen and samurai be standard spearmen. Another example would be to give the iconic naginata to the sohei only and samurai something like a nagamaki instead (which was the favorite weapon of Oda Nobunaga).

Although I realize it's early to be thinking about mods, I nevertheless had some fun playing around with how I would probably do this and came up with something like:
Nagayari Ashigaru (nagayari/pike, light armor; spear wall formation ability)
Oyumi Ashigaru (oyumi/arbalest, wakizashi/shortsword, unarmored; plant stakes ability*)
Koyumi Ashigaru (kokyu/shortbow, wakizashi/shortsword, light armor; fire arrow ability)
Teppo Ashigaru (teppo/portugese arquebus, wakizashi/shortsword, unarmored; plant stakes ability*)
Taiho Ashigaru (taiho/cannon, wakizashi/shortsword, unarmored; small shot ability)
Tousekiki Ashigaru (tousekiki/catapult, wakizashi/shortsword, unarmored; flaming ammo ability)
Nagamaki Samurai (nagamaki/glaive, heavy armor; challenge/chant ability)
Odachi Samurai (odachi/greatsword, medium armor; challenge/chant ability)
Teyari Samurai (teyari/spear, heavy armor; spear wall formation ability)
Yumi Samurai (daikyu/longbow, medium armor, katana/longsword; fire arrow ability)
Waseiteppo Samurai (waseiteppo/japanese arquebus, katana/longsword, light armor; small shot ability)
Keikihei Samurai (horse mount**, odachi/greatsword, medium armor; wedge formation ability)
Juukihei Samurai (horse mount**, nagamaki/glaive, heavy armor; wedge formation ability)
Kyukihei Samurai (horse mount**, daikyu/longbow, katana/longsword, medium armor; circle shoot ability)
Soukihei Samurai (horse mount**, teyari/spear, heavy armor; wedge formation ability)
Ryuukihei Samurai (horse mount, waseiteppo/japanese arquebus, katana/longsword, light armor; circle shoot ability)
Naginata Sohei (naginata/halberd, light armor, portable shrine)
Kanabo Sohei (kanabo/spiked iron staff, unarmored, portable shrine)
Kyu Sohei (hankyu/halfbow, katana/longsword, unarmored, portable shrine)
Kihei Sohei (horse mount*, naginata/halberd, light armor, portable shrine)
*plantable during deployment only
**Juukihei Samurai become Nagamaki Samurai, Keikihei Samurai become Odachi Samurai, Kyukihei Samurai become Yumi Samurai, Soukihei Samurai become Teyari Samurai, Ryuukihei Samurai become Waseiteppo Samurai, and Kihei Sohei become Naginata Sohei when dismounted

...which is 20 total, rather than 30 or 40 as I'm not keen on "faction unique" units either. Better to just go STW1 way and have certain factions or provinces have an "honor" or income bonus on them. (BTW I realize the japanese is probably off in the above :-P )

Another thing I hope they do, which was related to my problems with "tech trees" in another thread that I posted in, is make the dojos train more than one or two units this time. This is slightly less of a problem with M2TW's recruitment system (haven't played the newer gunpowder ones) but I've always found it more a tedious pain in the arse to have to build a whole building for one or two types of units than strategic. In what I posted above I'd probably go with:
Sojutsu Dojo: Nagayari Ashigaru, Teyari Samurai, Soukihei Samurai*, Naginata Sohei**, Kihei Sohei*/**
Kenjutsu Dojo: Odachi Samurai, Nagamaki Samurai, Keikihei Samurai*, Juukihei Samurai*, Kanabo Sohei**
Kyujutsu Dojo: Oyumi Ashigaru, Koyumi Ashigaru, Yumi Samurai, Kyukihei Samurai*, Kyu Sohei**
Hojutsu Dojo: Teppo Ashigaru, Waseiteppo Samurai, Ryuukihei Samurai*, Taiho Ashigaru, Tousekiki Ashigaru
Bajutsu Dojo: *required for all kihei/cavalry
Butsu Tera: **required for all sohei/warrior-monks

Which is 6 buildings plus a castle for 20 unit types, rather than the original's 15 or 16 buildings for about 16 unit types plus different levels of castles. Upgrading the buildings/castles would just increase honor or something. It's silly you have to wait so long to access units (other than gunpowder) at the start of the game, especially one in this short of a time period. While on the subject of castles though, and only partially related to units, I do hope they bring back the originals maximum amount of units garrisoned in a castle per castle size, although I'm pretty certain they won't.

[Karl08]

You have te-yari listed as a "long spear". Te yari was, in fact, a very short hand spear, about the length of a jo or less (it's even in the name: "hand spear").

Also, even though we see illustrations of samurai bravely charging in on horseback wielding naginata, the nagimaki was more of a "mounted" version of the naginata. The naginata is too long for effective use from horseback.

[General Malaise]

Where are you getting that from? I've read "te-" is more of a generic rather than specific term, and I meant "longspear" in the generic sense that you wield it with two hands, but it's still not a pike-length.

As for the nagamaki, it's weird to call it a "mounted naginata" as you use it more like a katana then a polearm, with the same types of stances and without sliding your grip up or down the shaft as you do with the latter.

I'm not really interested in historical nitpicking though, I'm more concerned that the units are balanced and unique as I've said before, than that we get eight types spearmen with one or two point differences in stats.

[Karl08]

Where are you getting that from? I've read "te-" is more of a generic rather than specific term, and I meant "longspear" in the generic sense that you wield it with two hands, but it's still not a pike-length.

The only word I can find for the long spear is naga yari, and everywhere I look, the te-yari is a short hand-spear, 3-4 feet in length. I'm rather curious as to who says a te-yari is a long spear.

As for the nagamaki, it's weird to call it a "mounted naginata" as you use it more like a katana then a polearm, with the same types of stances and without sliding your grip up or down the shaft as you do with the latter.

The nagamaki is a short pole with a sword blade, in essence, and the long pole makes it quite impossible to use it like a katana (which itself originated as a cavalry sword, with the tachi). The average tsuka of your average katana of Sengoku and earlier is about 8-9", meaning your hands will be pretty close to eachother. When tsuka start to reach lengths in excess of 12" (something we first see in Edo), it becomes awkward to keep the hands that close together. The nagamaki requires you to keep your hands quite far apart, so you can't use it the same way as a katana. Try chudan or jodan no kamae with katana and nagamaki, and then tell me the stances are similar.

The reason the nagamaki is more a "horseman's naginata", though, is because the naginata is too long and unwieldy for mounted use. If you want to cut with it from horseback, the shaft has to be shortened. Also, the halberd is a polearm with an axe head, and the naginata handles nothing like it. The naginata is a glaive, the glaive being essentially a blade on a pole. The nagamaki is a hybrid, neither glaive nor sword, but tries to be both.

I'm not really interested in historical nitpicking though, I'm more concerned that the units are balanced and unique as I've said before, than that we get eight types spearmen with one or two point differences in stats.

The problem here is to make different spear units distinguishable. The nagayari varied greatly in length, and which was better of longer vs. shorter nagayari never reached a proper consensus. Except we know that there was a difference. But how do we balance this out, not quite knowing the differences without hands-on experience?

[Orda Khan]

Add a unit roster that long and balance has gone, unless of course the MTW strategum is employed. Remember all those cav/sword armies anyone? I still don't understand why MTW has a fanbase, all it provided IMO was a better, upgraded interface, making battle commands more efficient and easy than STW.
Maybe MP points would be better off in a specific place rather than jumbled with SP.