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Thread: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

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    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    This is the preliminary public thread for Vassals & Valour: Redux, the new TW RPG that aims to revitalize this subforum by decentralizing power and giving individual more freedom by letting them have their own property and finances. Each player will control their own land like it was it's own faction while working with/against the other players. This thread has three purposes:

    1. To provide for the final discussion of the rules, after this rules will have to be changed via parliamentary procedure.
    2. To determine the starting circumstances for the game, such as choosing the mod, faction, allocating property and determining what the starting Civil War will look like.
    3. To give players a place to sign up for the game.

    For the first point, here are the rules. Please point out what you disagree with.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Vassals & Valour
    Game Rules

    Game Settings

    * Cecil XIX is the Game Master. (GM)
    * Lands to Conquer Gold
    * Difficulty to be mod’s recommended settings, if possible
    * Large Unit Size
    * Battle timer Off. Show CPU Moves. Manage All Settlements
    * Victory conditions TBD
    * Minor Personal Mod to add the family tree and some extra names.
    * Every ten (10) turns, the GM will give each AI faction a cash infusion, equal to either 2000 florins for each settlement the player faction holds.
    * The number of land units being transport on fleets cannot exceed twice the number of ships.


    How to Play - Detailed Rules

    1. The Role of the Players

    *1.1 Each player will role play a feudal noble in the chosen faction. They start as vassals of their father/benefactor. Each noble owns property, which include their own personal bodyguards at a bare minimum but can include additional military units, ships, agents, settlements and ancillaries. Some property provide income, some require expenses, and each noble has a personal treasury that increases and decreases each turn based on the income and expenses the noble has each turn.

    *1.2 Upon joining, a player may choose from any unassigned avatar available. Players cannot formally reserve specific avatars, and must try to arrange for ‘gentlemen’s agreements’ with other players where possible if there is an avatar they want in the future. The game will not be modded just to include RGBs. Players should role play the traits of their avatars.

    *1.3 Players whose avatars lead a battle are expected to fight that battle when at all possible. This will involve downloading the save file of the battle, playing it, saving it and then uploading the resulting save file. Uploading the post-battle save must be done within 48 hours of the pre-battle save game being uploaded. If the deadline expires, the battle is auto resolved. If there are multiple generals involved in the battle, the avatar chosen by the computer is considered the leader for all purposes and has the right of first refusal to command the battle. Other avatars in the ‘stack‘, hereby referred to as an ’army’, may substitute if the player of the avatar chosen by the computer is unavailable.

    *1.4 The player will vote as his avatar on edicts, charter amendments and rule changes at regular intervals.

    *1.5 Players are encouraged to write in-character stories in the stories thread; to discuss matters of state in the Deliberative Body deliberations thread; to write-up battle reports; to PM each other in character for role playing. Screenshots can be posted full-size, but must be kept under spoiler tags.

    *1.6 Each player is required to post in the ‘Status & Arrangements Thread’, or SAT. Here they must list what settlement contains their treasury, and if they have more than one province they must list which province is their personal Capital. Players are also encouraged to use the SAT to post standing policies they have which other players should be aware of, such as not allowing other players to march in one’s territory without permission.

    *1.7 Players do not need avatars to participate in the game. However, players with out avatars cannot fight battles or own property, and can only vote in Body sessions.

    2. The Role of the GM

    *2.1 Cecil XIX is the Game Master (GM) for Vassals & Valour. He is the only person who can decide when turns begin and end, either personally or through a temporarily appointed delegate. He has the final say on all rules disputes.

    *2.2 Cecil XIX oversees each avatar’s finances. At the start of the turn he will list each noble’s property, income and expenditures. At the end of the turn he will tally up the changes each player has made and add the numbers up to determine how much money the faction should start with in the next turn, using the Financial Overview Screen (FOS). If the amount of money the faction has at the beginning of the turn is not what the FOS predicted last turn, the FOS takes precedence and the amount of money in the treasury will be adjusted via console command.

    *2.3 Whenever they desire, but no more often than once every 10 turns, Cecil XIX or anyone he chooses may create an in-game Event. Events are not limited in scope, subject matter, or method of implementation. All game rules can be violated to implement an Event. The players can prevent the implementation of any single Event through a simple majority of OOC votes.

    *2.4 Cecil XIX may always participate in OOC polls.

    3. Personal Finances and Property

    *3.1 Unlike previous TW RPGs, there is no Chancellor, Megas Logothetes or Seneschal. In V&V, nothing is owned by the faction. Instead, every province, unit, ship etc. has one, and only one, owner. Those things which are owned by avatars, including but not limited to settlements, army units, ships, agents and ancillaries are hereafter referred to as 'property'. At the start of the game, the factions property will be assigned to the avatars by the GM. All property conquered, recruited or otherwise created afterwards will be assigned based on the following rules. A noble can use his property and treasury as he wishes, to his ultimate (and personally defined) success or failure!

    3.2 Property which are recruited in settlements belong to the lord of the settlement they were recruited from. Ancillaries are the property of the avatar they spawn in. Princesses, unlike other agents, are the property of the closest, oldest male relative.

    *3.3 The amount of ships, soldiers and agents a lord can recruit and own is limited only by his treasury’s ability to support their upkeep, and whether he has enough in his treasury for the down payment. The exception to this is agents that have recruitment limits, such as priests and merchants. Since the limit for such agents is determined by the buildings in the settlements, a lord may only train such an agent if the number of such agents he has already trained is smaller than his settlements contribution to the agent recruitment limit. An example:

    A lord who owns one settlement with a small church may recruit only one priest, as a small church only adds one priest to the agent recruitment limit. He can use that priest however he likes, but if he chose to give that priest to another lord he must wait for that priest to die before recruiting a new one.

    Further more, an agent transferred from one lord to another will count against the limit of the giver, unless the receiver has the unused limit to take in the given agent. The receiver must have the given agent count towards his personal limit, if possible. For convenience it shall be noted here that only merchants and priests have an agent limit. The limit for merchants is equal to the number of cities with any level of market in them. The priest limit is the same, except any city with an Abbey or larger will add two to the limit rather than one.

    3.4 The acquisition and allocation of new settlements is determined by a multi-step process involving the Faction Leader and the Deliberative Body. First, a settlement cannot legally be captured unless an Edict was passed in the previous session authorizing it’s conquest. An edict can only authorize taking one settlement, each settlement requires it’s own edict. The session after a province is conquered, the Diet will automatically vote on granting the conqueror, which is defined as the General leading the army which first entered the settlement, the province as a fief to be held by him and his successors in perpetuity. This vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass, and should it not pass than the province passes to the King who may grant it as a fief to any avatar as soon as he sees fit. A noble who holds one or provinces in violation of this rule should be considered an outlaw, and have his property seized.

    *3.5 When players take the save, they must state what actions they took that would affect their property, income or expenditures. This can be announced in the same post where they return the save, or in a PM to the GM if they prefer such information to remain private.

    *3.6 Sources of Income and Requirements for Expenditure

    Each avatar has his own income, expenditures and treasury. V&V Uses the Financial Overview screen to determine the Financial status of the faction, and from that it derives the financial status of the avatars. The financial screen is the final word on what money flows into and out of the faction, even though the faction itself has no money. It is the sum total of every avatars income and expenditures, and it is divided into several sections which work in V&V in following manner:

    Farming - When a noble is made the lord of the province, he establishes one or more manorial estates there for his own purposes. These states generate farming income from the work of the peasants there, which the lord collects as his due. The total displayed in the financial overview screen is the sum of the contribution of each province, which can be viewed individually in the settlement detail window.

    Mining - Certain provinces are rich in minerals, which are viewable from the campaign map. The lord of a province lucky enough to contain these minerals can establish a mine there, run as his personal property. The revenue from selling these valuable minerals flows directly into his coffers. The total displayed in the financial overview screen is the sum of the contribution of each province, which can be viewed individually in the settlement detail window.

    Trade - In every place, trade occurs. This is especially true in a large area of land like a province, where trade flows into and from neighboring provinces via land and sea. Nobles collect revenue from this trade via tariffs and tolls. Keep in mind that blockades can eliminate sea trade, and if the provincial capital is besieged than the lord cannot derive any trade income at all. Trade income derived from merchants ‘agents’ is listed separately, and not under this heading. The total displayed in the financial overview screen is the sum of the contribution of each province, which can be viewed in the settlement detail window.

    Merchant Trade - The lord of major city has the ability to empower a merchant prince to leave the settlement, and travel the world in the name of his lord seeking resources to barter with for profit. Once a merchant is making a profit, he sends a portion of it back to his lord for the privilege of being able to serve him, which provides the merchant with protection and opportunities he could not have otherwise. The total displayed in the financial overview screen is the sum of the contribution of each agent, which can be viewed individually either on the ‘Character Details’ screen of the merchant or by place the mouse over the merchant on the campaign map and reading the tooltip.

    Taxes - Taxes are the primary source of income that a lord has, barring the King’s Purse or a gold mine. Lords are ever in need of money to wage their wars, so it is often necessary to simply take this money from the people in the province, generally with the assurance that it’s necessary for their protection. Whether the lord is being honest or manipulative is up for the player to determine. The total displayed in the financial overview screen is the sum of the contribution of each province, which can be viewed in the settlement detail window.

    Wages - Wages are fees paid to agents, for anything from the expenses inherent in the job to payment for services rendered. This category also represents the costs necessary for a noble to maintain his privileged lifestyle. A Noble must be able to pay for his own lifestyle, as well as any units in his employ. The wages of an agent can be viewed on it’s recruitment screen. Each general and princess requires a wage of one hundred florins.

    Army Upkeep - Keeping large numbers of men around, ready to move wherever you want and fight whomever you want at a moment’s notice, is expensive. Nobles need money to pay for every regiment and ship they own, the costs of which can be seen by right clicking on any military unit.

    Construction - Erecting a building requires men, material and time. All of these things means it also requires money. In order to place a building in the production queue of a settlement, the lord of that settlement must have sufficient money in his treasury. This category also includes a irregular source of income: The purposeful demolishment of buildings to sell their valuable components.

    King’s Purse - It goes without saying that the King occupies a very special position in his realm, and has much power and prestige. One manifestation of this is the King’s Purse, whereby the King uses his unique influence and connections throughout the land to add to his income. Of course, this money is uniquely the King‘s to do with as he sees fit. This can only be viewed on the Financial Overview screen.

    Diplomacy/Tributes - This covers the exchange of money between Kingdoms during diplomatic negotiations, either through fair trade our outright coercion. As it is arranged by diplomats, it applies only to the king. This can only be viewed on the FOS.

    Corruption and Other - Corruption works differently in V&V. Rather than being calculated based on the distance from the capital of the kingdom, it is calculated based on the distance to the capital of the lord of the settlement. In addition, all other incomes and expenditures not applicable to the other categories are placed here.

    3.7 Although a noble has certain incomes and expenditures to his name, he can give the his income to anyone he pleases, and he can take the money to pay for his expenditures any way he pleases.

    *3.8 Each noble has a treasury, where he keeps his gold. Unlike the faction treasury, the noble’s treasury physically exists. One a new avatar enters the game, he can place his treasury anywhere or with anyone he pleases. Thereafter, it can only be moved if it is taken by a army and deposited at a new location. If a general has possession of another’s treasury for any reason, he can choose to take any amount of money out of it and place it into his own treasury. He must announce this in a public, IC thread.

    *3.9 Treasuries can also be taken by force of arms by one Noble from another. If a city or fort holding one or more treasuries is conquered, then the conqueror, which is defined as the General leading the army which first entered the settlement, takes possession of the treasury and can either absorb it into his own or return it to his owner. If an army is transporting a treasury, it will lose half the treasury if it is defeated in battle and the entirety of the treasury if the army is annihilated. The treasury will then go to the General leading the victorious army. If a fleet transporting a treasury is attacked, the treasury will only be affected if ships in the fleet are sunk. The player must designate which ships in the fleet hold which part of the treasury when the fleet embarks, and those ships that are sunk will have their portion of the treasury sink with them.

    *3.11 The AI factions can also seize a nobles treasury in the manner outlined in 3.9. AI factions will always take the treasury for themselves, and it will be subtracted from the Player Faction and given the AI Faction via console command.

    3.12 Players are encouraged to sell, trade, loan, gift or otherwise barter with each other using there property. History is replete with examples of diplomatic deals where one party agrees to loan it’s soldiers to another party, for example.

    3.13 A noble can only hold a limited number of provinces and still collect their full income. This number is equal to half the noble’s loyalty stat, rounded down. Should a noble exceed this number of provinces, then each province in excessive will reduce the noble’s settlement income by twenty percent.

    4. Crusades and Missions

    4.1 Any noble may decide to use his property towards completing a mission assigned to a faction, where he is able. The rewards from successful missions are given to those nobles whose property was used to complete them, or is split amongst them if multiple nobles are involved.

    4.2 The player faction can call a crusade in two ways: Either the King does so unilaterally at any time, or the Body votes to do so with a (2/3rds?) majority if the Player faction is already at war with the crusader target‘s faction.

    4.3 Characters are free to then join the Crusade, using their property in any way they see fit to the task. They can act together or separately.

    5. The role of the Deliberative Body

    5.1 The Deliberative Body will meet in session every 10 turns. Out of session, there can be open debate and deliberations. Each session lasts 3 days of real time with.

    5.2 At each session, nobles can propose edicts. These require two seconders to be put to the vote, and a simple majority of voters to pass, calculated as in rule 5.7. Edicts are laws that express the official opinion and standing of the Kingdom on whatever subject matter the nobles choose, and are considered in effect until the next session. Should a noble violate the edict, it is as if he is going against the will of the realm.

    5.3 Each Noble may only propose ONE edict or charter amendments per session. In addition, Dukes may propose three additional ’House Edicts’ per session. These edicts operate normally, with the exception that the must have the public backing of two House Members, or every House Member if the House has less than three members. Avatars whose players have officially taken a temporary leave of absence will not count against their Duke for the purposes of rule 5.3.

    5.4 Certain rules of the game can be changed by a Charter Amendment, both of which are permanently in effect. This is an IC vote that requires a two-thirds majority to pass, calculated as in rule 5.7.

    *5.5 Rules marked with a (*) can only be changed by a ‘Rules Change’. This requires an OOC vote where a two-thirds majority passes, where every person’s vote weighs the same. Such a change is permanent, and requires another Rules Change to itself be changed.

    5.6 Tied legislation fails. When contradictory legislation is passed, Rules Changes take precedence over Charter Amendments, which in turn takes precedence over regular edicts.

    5.7 Certain avatars get bonus votes, up to a maximum of +7. This extra influence comes from the fact that the Body is made of more characters and just the nobles, and powerful nobles and sway more of these anonymous legislators. Below is the method in which this influence is calculated. The King has the option of adding his authority stat to his vote instead, if it would give him a bigger bonus.

    Appointed Influence: (Max +5 Points)
    Duke: +3
    Prince: +2
    Count: +1

    Stat Influence: (Max +2 Points)
    15 or more total stat points: +1
    6 or more ranks in one stat: +1

    6. The Role of the Upper Ranks - Kings, Princes and Dukes

    6.1 The King presides over the body. He calls the body to order and maintains decorum; if necessary he can bar nobles whose behavior offends him from entering the body. If I cannot attend for whatever reason, he can appoint the Prince to act as his deputy to exercise the powers of rule 5.1.

    6.2 The King is the only noble who can control the faction’s diplomats; he also pays for their upkeep. Other nobles cannot recruit diplomats without his permission. He can use his diplomats unilaterally for any action, with the exceptions that he cannot give away provinces that he does not have. This also means he can start and (attempt to) stop wars at any time for any reason.

    6.3 The King adjudicates on rules disputes, unless the dispute directly involves the King. In that case, rules disputes will be solved by a council of the Dukes of the Realm.

    6.4 The capital of the faction must be a province owned by the King. If this is not so, then the King can move the capital to any settlement that he owns.

    6.5 The King can grant excess provinces to a character. When he does so the King has an option to make the receiver a count, loyal directly the crowns. He could even bestow upon a character the rank of Duke, whereupon a new house would be born. Both of these moves should be seen as a great threat to the authority of the existing Dukes.

    6.6 Both King and Prince can only be they who are chosen by the game. Players are encouraged to think of roleplaying-reasons for a character to become the new Prince and publicly identify him as such as soon as possible.

    6.7 Houses will exist at the start the game, the exact number to be determined based on the number of provinces and generals the chosen faction starts out with.

    6.8 Dukes can grant one of their excess provinces to a character, making him Count of the Province within the Duchy. A Duke must retain one province to act as the Ducal capital. Dukes and Counts are part of the feudal chain, each owing his loyalty to his immediate superior.

    6.9 Dukes and Counts should name a successor, who will take over their titles and settlements when they die. If no successor is named, the oldest natural son inherits, (if none, oldest adopted son; if none again, then the oldest son-in-law).

    6.10 Both Kings and Dukes have the authority to demand payment of scutage tax from their direct vassals. This can take any form the lord can think of. This tax is not collected automatically, the vassal must explicitly decide to pay it.

    7. Civil Strife

    *7.1 A noble must make a public declaration of war against another noble before he takes the save to attack his opponent. Other nobles can then choose to join the conflict on either side, or start their own separate wars.

    *7.2 An internecine conflict will end when all participants are dead or agree to peace. Peace is hard when all parties either simply decide to stop fighting, or sigh a treaty. It is not necessary for all parties involved in a conflict to agree to stop fighting at once, nor must a peace treaty include all participants. Should a treaty be signed to end a conflict, the terms will go into effect automatically as soon as the treaty is signed and either posted publicly or PMed to the GM. Terms which stay in effect over time can also be canceled at will by either party. (Should peace terms call for one part to receive property occupied by a hostile party, the hostile party must first remove it’s soldiers before the transfer can take place.)

    *7.3 While two nobles are at war, the game plays most as usual. However, in keeping with the TW series, players in involved in war are given a set turn order, just as the factions are. Players must take their turn in order thirty-six hours to do so. When nobles are at war with each other, the GM will make every effort to have it be as similar as fighting an AI faction as possible, including using the console. When two player controlled armies meet in battle, an army must have a noble in it in or it will be controlled by the AI.

    *7.4 Whenever a battle occurs where both sides have a noble present, it is a PvP battle. The GM or a someone designated by him will act as umpire; the umpire cannot be a player who’s avatar is participating in the battle. If both players agree, the battle can be fought via online multiplayer, however since withdrawal is impossible in online multiple the loser of such a battle will have his entire army wiped out. The umpire will determine what unit’s the players can bring to battle online, as well as what their valor/armor etc. level is. The players must post a screenshot to verify they did not use an illegal units, as well as a screenshot showing how much damage each unit took.

    *7.5 If the battle is not fought online it will be fought using the normal throne room style, or an abbreviated version thereof. Which of the two will be used shall be determined by an OOC poll of all players, to last until the battle has finished it’s deployment phase. Regardless of the result, is the duty of the umpire to determine the map and army composition, as well as other relevant settings. The umpire must have the battle reflect what would happen in an in-game battle as best as possible. The umpire will also have the final say as to what the results where, including what units need to be disbanded due to casualties, whether a nobles was captured or killed, whether a settlement has been conquered, and whether a ancillary will be removed to change hands. Console commands will be used when necessary.

    *7.6 The shorter style of Throne Room PvP acts much the same as normal, except it has two phases. The first phase has each side deploy it’s forces as normal. The second phase as each side submit a detailed battle plan, which the umpire will then follow to fight the battle in it’s entirety. The results will then be PMed to all players involved.


    For the second point, let me state my idea as a starting point for discussion.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Lands to Conqueor Gold, HRE: Investiture Conflict/Civil War

    The initial PVP will have two sides, the Papists and the Imperialists. The Papists will be the protagonists, I'll spawn six generals for them and assign them land. The Imperialists will be the antagonists, and will consists of default starting characters.


    Finally, I'll keep the sign-up sheet here:

    0. Cecil XIX, GMT -5
    1. Zim, GMT -8 - Prince Henry
    2. phonicsmonkey, GMT +10 - Leopold
    3. Tristan de Castelreng, GMT +1 - Magnus von Saxony
    4. barcamartin, GMT +1 - Otto Von Kassel
    5. Elite Ferret, GMT - Ortwinus Raspe
    6. TheFlax, GMT -5 - Vaclav Premyslid
    7. Ignoramus, GMT+10 - Andreas Hummel
    8. The Celtic Viking, GMT +1 - Theodericus der Bartige
    9. GeneralHankerchief, GMT -5 - Kaiser Heinrich
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 08-25-2010 at 03:17. Reason: formatting

  2. #2
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I'm in, and will be giving the rules a look tonight.
    V&V RIP Helmut Becker, Duke of Bavaria.



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    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    First of all, from my point of view, the rules look pretty solid. However, you and I have a base disagreement on what type of game will succeed and revitalize this subforum: I think that it will be a more centralized game that puts more power in the hands of a Chancellor-type figure, as it was pre-Cataclysm and in Will of the Senate, while you go the other way and cut out the figure all together. Since this is your game, I'm not going to tell you how to run it, but it'll be interesting to see how this game does and I'll be watching it with great interest.

    I'm not sure if I have the time to invest a full character, but I'll see if I can contribute as an avatarless figure, and you have my full marketing support.
    Last edited by GeneralHankerchief; 08-03-2010 at 23:12.
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  4. #4
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by Zim View Post
    I'm in, and will be giving the rules a look tonight.
    Glad to have you aboard, Zim!

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    First of all, from my point of view, the rules look pretty solid. However, you and I have a base disagreement on what type of game will succeed and revitalize this subforum: I think that it will be a more centralized game that puts more power in the hands of a Chancellor-type figure, as it was pre-Cataclysm and in Will of the Senate, while you go the other way and cut out the figure all together. Since this is your game, I'm not going to tell you how to run it, but it'll be interesting to see how this game does and I'll be watching it with great interest.

    I'm not sure if I have the time to invest a full character, but I'll see if I can contribute as an avatarless figure, and you have my full marketing support.
    You might be right about about what direction to take, buy in my opinion that's a step backwards, rather than forwards. I'm glad to hear you'll be trying to contribute, it's the first proof that it was wise to reintroduce the option for avatarless characters.

  5. #5
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Ok, I'm in this time.

    I have never joined a full-blown RPG in here before, fearing I would not have enough time. But I love the Throne Room and I want to do everything I can to keep it going and support the games that are started here, so I'm going to give this a go.

    I have zero experience with these games and have not managed to get through the (lengthy) list of rules, so I have no feedback for you on those at this stage.

    However, one thing which has occurred to me before when spectating these games is that the level of difficulty provided by the AI is extremely low, especially when you have several experienced players working together against it.

    So, may I suggest that you start the game in hotseat mode, allowing the GM to take control of AI factions at particular times in order to make sensible moves with their armies and even fight key battles for them?

    This would raise the level of challenge significantly. It needn't be too much of a burden as you can simply switch them back to AI after the turn is complete (or even after you have completed some specific actions within a turn) - and it will probably be one of the more fun tasks the GM has to complete amongst all the admin and arbitration..

    Just an idea but see what you think.
    frogbeastegg's TWS2 guide....it's here!

    Come to the Throne Room to play multiplayer hotseat campaigns and RPGs in M2TW.

  6. #6
    King Philippe of France Senior Member _Tristan_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey View Post
    Ok, I'm in this time.

    However, one thing which has occurred to me before when spectating these games is that the level of difficulty provided by the AI is extremely low, especially when you have several experienced players working together against it.

    So, may I suggest that you start the game in hotseat mode, allowing the GM to take control of AI factions at particular times in order to make sensible moves with their armies and even fight key battles for them?
    Welcome aboard, Phonics !!

    And good idea... Something that was thought about at the time of King of the Franks but was never implemented... I always thought that the GM should have taken control of AI factions once those were at war with the Players or if the Players left one of thier flanks unguarded...

    I would very much be for it... It would help immersion to fight against a, for once, not brainless opponent...

    PS : And I'm in !!
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  7. #7
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    All right, I've finished posting the advertisement threads. Next I'm going to PM as many veterans as a I can and beg ask them to join. Once that's done we'll begin.

    Also, phonicsmonkey, Tristan, I do like that idea, however I'm worried about implementation. I always want the players to be able to fight the battles their characters are in, so if a human took control of an enemy faction he wouldn't be able to order attacks onto armies led by avatars. Is it possible to have the human control a faction, then switch back to the AI so it can attack and give the player faction the option of fighting it out?

  8. #8
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    You can switch back and forth between AI and human control any time you like, even mid-turn. However, it would seem to me the best way to get around what you're saying is for the GM to move the AI stack into position (next to the stack containing the avatar) on the AI turn and then leave it there to await attack by the human player controlling the avatar on the next RPG turn. Make sense?
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    Sweljuk Sultan Sweladin Member barcamartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I have never done anything like this, but I happened to stumble over this thread for some reason and I must say I am interested. I have read through the rules until the Treasury-part and it seems as though this could be fun.

    I have basic roleplaying "skills", but they are nothing spectacular at all. If you guys can handle a near-newbie in this game and help him along the road, I'll be happy to join. :)
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  10. #10
    Member Member Ferret's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Well I'm going to have to join now that barcamartin has aren't I

    It was pretty dissapointing to come back from my exams to find Vandal Invasion dead, hopefully this one will last longer. I hope to be pretty active seeing as I only work about three hours a day

  11. #11
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey View Post
    You can switch back and forth between AI and human control any time you like, even mid-turn. However, it would seem to me the best way to get around what you're saying is for the GM to move the AI stack into position (next to the stack containing the avatar) on the AI turn and then leave it there to await attack by the human player controlling the avatar on the next RPG turn. Make sense?
    So constantly switching wouldn't hurt the AI? Your solution isn't terrible, but I wouldn't want to make it so that the AI never attacks the player, that would give you guys a huge advantage.

    Welcome aboard barcamartin, and welcome back Elite Ferret. I promise you both that I'll do my utmost to keep this thing going.

    And barcamartin, I was in much the same situation as you when it came to roleplaying. It might help you to do what I did: Create a simple idea for a character, something you can describe in the single sentence or two, and make sure it's something you really feel strongly about. If you look at things entirely through this simple prism you've constructed, I think you'll find that you'll always have an opinion on something. This approach served me very well for my characters.

    EDIT: Before I forget, I've added a clarification in the rules.

    *2.4 Cecil XIX may always participate in OOC polls.
    This probably goes without saying, but I'm adding in it because it's better to make such things explicit.
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 08-10-2010 at 04:46.

  12. #12
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil XIX View Post
    So constantly switching wouldn't hurt the AI? Your solution isn't terrible, but I wouldn't want to make it so that the AI never attacks the player, that would give you guys a huge advantage.
    There's been some talk elsewhere on these boards that switching back and forth can confuse the AI and leave it inactive, but I haven't really witnessed that myself.

    Zim would be a good person to ask as he's currently neighbouring a faction in the SS hotseat that's been switched back and forth.

    What I had in mind was that the GM would keep an eye on things and 'moderate' the AI, so that if it was attacking but only with one stack where it has another available you could move the 2nd stack along as reinforcements. Also you could step in once there is a war going on and make sure the AI border is defended (for example with forts which the AI never uses). Generally just 'editing' the AI moves so that they are more sensible. Alternatively you could take over the faction for the duration of a war - once the AI has attacked, the GM plays all that AI faction's turns until there is peace once more, then switches it back to AI (if it is still in existence..).
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    Sweljuk Sultan Sweladin Member barcamartin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Sounds like an awesome strategy Cecil, I'll see what I can do with it. Karl von Schweden; "I really hate the Danes, view military as a nation's most important focus and insist on expanding the Empire's borders. Women are also secondary in life, disposable just like soldiers willing to die for the Emperor. " ;)
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  14. #14
    The Search for Beefy Member TheFlax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Thanks for the invite Cecil.

    Count me in, though as I am rather busy and predict I might be progressively more available, I'd rather start with one of the more muted roles.
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  15. #15
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by barcamartin View Post
    Sounds like an awesome strategy Cecil, I'll see what I can do with it. Karl von Schweden; "I really hate the Danes, view military as a nation's most important focus and insist on expanding the Empire's borders. Women are also secondary in life, disposable just like soldiers willing to die for the Emperor. " ;)
    See, now you've got basis for your opinion on foreign affairs, domestic affairs and your personal life. Once things get rolling, you might even end up surprised where it takes you.

    And welcome to TheFlax! You're quite welcome for the invite.

    That leaves us with six players. I've sent about half the invites I have listed, and I plan to send the rest tomorrow in addition to any other people I can think of. That will end my initial, active recruitment, although if any of you know someone who you think would like this then I encourage you to invite them of your own initiative. I'm a lurker by nature, so I don't know the guild as well as I might.

    Anyway, after that they'll be only one thing left to do: Finalizing mod and faction. I'm a bit worried that no one's voiced any opinion on this, but that's fine. What does worry me is that there aren't enough players for the full PVP war I envisioned, however I can scale that back pretty. So again I ask, is there anybody who objects to starting things out like so:

    Lands to Conqueor, HRE: Investiture Conflict/Civil War

    The initial PVP will have two sides, the Papists and the Imperialists. I'll split the players between both sides as equally as possibly and then they can go at it.
    It should be noted that LTC removes the family tree for the Reich in the same manner as the Teutonic Order in their Kingdoms campaign. I'm assuming the consensus is that the family tree should be restored for RP purposes, so that's what I'm planning to do.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I'm definitely in!

    On the issue of faction, I don't mind if it's the HRE, although we might have some confusion mixing KotR characters with V&V.

    I think we'll get more players. Besides, we don't want too many at the start. 6 a side should be a good start.
    Last edited by Ignoramus; 08-11-2010 at 09:48.

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  17. #17
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by phonicsmonkey View Post
    There's been some talk elsewhere on these boards that switching back and forth can confuse the AI and leave it inactive, but I haven't really witnessed that myself.

    Zim would be a good person to ask as he's currently neighbouring a faction in the SS hotseat that's been switched back and forth.
    The Shah is permanantly set as a player faction now, right? Up until that point I didn't notice much difference when they were switching back and forth. There was a lot of the Mongol Shuffle, but the AI does that often under normal circumstances as well....

    In KOTF the ERE received a huge monetary bonus, twice that given to other factions. At the end they were near France in the rankings, if I recall correctly. I meant to set them as a player faction for a bit to create an enemy, but the loss of my computer and my long absence ruined it.

    I have no big objection to the HRE. We've been through two other factions already in these games and it's been long enough since KOTR. On the other hand it could create an odd sense of deja vu for those of us who played in that game, especially you guys that were in it from the beginning or nearly so. If other factions were discussed I'm not sure who else would have a good pvp conflict to start with. England maybe?

    LTC is a great mod.

    Quick question. If I'm reading the rules correctly, the rules don't have the long list of "powers" by rank of the last few games (although upper ranks have some abilities defined in relevant sections)? I'm guessing this is closer to how ranks were set up in KOTR.
    Last edited by Zim; 08-11-2010 at 22:56.
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  18. #18
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Sign me up, Scotty.

  19. #19
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Excellent, welcome aboard The Celtic King! You've got good timing, this fits in well with my plans.

    Since there's been no objections, I've decided that We will be using LTC Gold, and playing as the HRE Now I've thought up a pretty good starting scenario, which just happens to require eight people. Call this 'Event 0'.

    The Great Saxon Revolt

    It is 1081, and the Reich is experiencing a conflict the likes of which is not seen in generations. Although Heinrich the IV, Holy Roman Emperor, was brought back into the fold by Gregory after his dramatic submission in the snow in 1077, the weakness of this episode has brought about rebellion by the lords dissatisfied by Heinrich's rule. However Heinrich, who is also the Duke of Franconia and controls the castle of Magdeburg, has the support of his first son Prince Henry, the Duke of Swabia, his second son Leopold, Duke of Austria, and Otto von Kassel, the Duke of Bavaria. Together they have sworn to surpress the rebellion to the Kaiser's satisfaction!

    In turn, four great houses have chosen to oppose Heinrich. Their leaders are Andreas Hummel, the Duke of Holland, Vaclav Premyslid, the Duke of Bohemia, Magnus von Saxony, the Duke of Saxony and Ortwinus Raspe, The Duke of Tirol and Overlord of the the Swiss Communes. These men have sworn an oath to remove the Salian dynasty from the Reich permanently, and set up one of their own on the Throne! Who exactly that will be, though, may prove to be a tricky question. It would be best if the rebels could agree on who to crown, but if this could not be done there is another way. Heinrich has a daughter, named Agnes, and if her father and brothers were killed then whomever had her in his possession could force her to marry him, and in turn lay claim to the throne. This would make him the Kaiser by default, and the rebels would have to go to war again in order to depose him.

    Regardless of the result, it is a sure thing that this war will shock the Reich to it's very foundations!
    Now I'm still working balancing the starting positions, but you can at least tell from the description which provinces and soldiers belong to whom. I'll probably start out certain players as having mercenaries in order to balance things out. While I'm staightening that out, let's get started on choosing avatars. You all can see the sign-up sheet in the first post, the number indicates the order in which you'll get to choose. So that means Zim chooses from any of the eight starting nobles, and The Celtic Viking will not get to choose at all. When you make your choice, you must include the timezone you'll be playing in for it to count. If no valid claim is made within twenty-four hours, the next in line may choose. This will continue until the eight spots are filled.

    In order to view your choices, I'm provided this save file. Place this is in the save folder for LTC Gold in order to load it. When you load, you'll notice two things.

    1. Vaclav Premyslid and Magnus von Saxony do not have names. This is due to their names not being listed in a certain file. I'm working on this, and will provide the edited file by the time the game starts.

    2. There is no family tree. This is quite easy to fix actually, and I won't provide an edited file unless someone asks. The file that you need to edit to fix this is "landstoconquer/data/descr_sm_factions.txt". Go to line 76, and replace the word "teutonic" with "yes".

    Now then, when deciding what character to choose, don't forget that you have to pay for the soldiers you start with. This means that most players will start not being able to afford what they have, but I'll make sure each player start with enough money to pay for their starting forces for ten turns. Use it or lose it.

    Any questions?
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 08-12-2010 at 23:28.

  20. #20
    Wandering Metsuke Senior Member Zim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I'll pick Prince Henry.

    PST GMT-8
    Last edited by Zim; 08-12-2010 at 23:30.
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  21. #21
    Throne Room Caliph Senior Member phonicsmonkey's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I'll take Leopold, Duke of Austria

    I'm in Melbourne Australia which is GMT+10
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  22. #22
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Well, I'd like to thank you, Cecil, for recognizing me as the upstanding royalty that I am; however, my name here is still "The Celtic Viking".

    I'll choose character when I've got everything set up.

    Edit: oh, right, no picking for me. Huh. Well, just give me the runt, then: I don't mind sticking it to the Man.
    Last edited by The Celtic Viking; 08-12-2010 at 23:43.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I think its pretty obvious - Andreas Hummel for me!

    For Flemish Cloth!!!!

    I'm also in Melbourne, Australia, GMT+10

    Edit: Sorry, I didn't realise there was a queue. Please ignore my choice, although I obviously would love to play a Hummel if he's left to me.
    Last edited by Ignoramus; 08-12-2010 at 23:36.

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  24. #24
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    If this is HRE, I'll take a character, at least initially. Can't resist.

    *goes off to reinstall M2TW*
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  25. #25
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Oh man. I hesitate to ask this of you, but Heinrich is unclaimed and you're welcome to take him.

    For those who are ahead of GH in the line, let me give you this as compensation. I'll remove/add one level from/to any trait you want, twice, provided that you can't pick the same trait or it's anti-trait twice. This also means I'd have to spawn a new character, which I'd place with the rebels. The same deal applies to whomever chooses this character, and he can pick which settlement, and the army within it, will be his.

  26. #26
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    I appreciate the gesture, but I'm not sure if I want to play Heinrich again yet. Do you mind if I think it over for a day or two and in the meantime, we can continue with the process as normal?
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
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    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  27. #27
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Yes, of course. I wouldn't want to pressure you.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Also, I have a suggestion.

    Wouldn't it be great if we could write into the rules the possibility of a player controlling the Papal States if a player controlled cardinal gets elected Pope? The possibilities are endless.

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  29. #29
    The Count of Bohemia Senior Member Cecil XIX's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    As twenty-four hours have passed since phonicsmonkey made his pick, Tristan de Castelreng will be moved to the back of the line and barcamartin now has twenty-fours to make his pick and state his timezone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ignoramus View Post
    Wouldn't it be great if we could write into the rules the possibility of a player controlling the Papal States if a player controlled cardinal gets elected Pope? The possibilities are endless.
    It is an interesting idea. Do you mean the faction itself, excommunication or both? Is it even possible for a player to control excommunications?
    Last edited by Cecil XIX; 08-14-2010 at 00:22.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Vassals & Valour: Redux - Rules Finalization and Sign-ups

    Quote Originally Posted by Cecil XIX View Post
    As twenty-four hours have passed since phonicsmonkey made his pick, Tristan de Castelreng will be moved to the back of the line and barcamartin now has twenty-fours to make his pick and state his timezone.



    It is an interesting idea. Do you mean the faction itself, excommunication or both? Is it even possible for a player to control excommunications?
    I meant the faction. So for example, if the Duke of Bavaria's cardinal becomes pope, he could utilise Inquisitors, all the Papacy's fleets and armies, and access to the Papacy's funds.

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