Information on Iron/steel making in and around germania

[Blxz]

First question. Was steel made by German tribes at all? I know they were iron poor and I am not sure about their technology in regards to steel making.

Secondly, How did they make the steel if they did have the technology to make it?
I suspect most likely it would have been through the use of charcoal for the carbon enrichment but I believe there are/were significant amounts of coal in the ground in those regions. Did they mine and use coal at all or was it entirely based off wood charcoal?

[Trve Leveller]

I do now that at some point German tribes used bloomeries for steel production but I'm not sure when this was done or if it even was in EB's timeframe.

They mostly used turf and charcoal, but sometimes bituminous coal was used, which was gained by open-pit mining.

Edit:
According to this site : http://www.b22.de/rennofen/index.html
they probably used such furnaces as early as 500 bc

[Blxz]

Thanks for the link. i don't read german though. But the pictures can be useful.

I am not so concerned about eb's timeframe. I am looking more into the dark ages but I figured the past was a good place to start. I am mostly interested in how prevalent the use of coal was both during the timeframe and in the periods afterwards and if anyone knows whether the use ratio of coal to charcoal increased of decreased.

Otherwise, thanks for the reply. The germanic tribes are a major weakness in my knowledge.

[Ichon]

Charcoal would have been most commonly used right up to nearly the start of the industrial age but I think there are records of surface coal deposits being exploited as early as Aristotle when some treatises written in Athens mention coal mining by metal workers. Romans in Britian and Rhineland seemed to have made some limited use of coal as well but it would have beem mostly for making bronze and maybe some early types of iron. Steel was relatively rare until the industrial age and mostly developed accidentally and the science of its production not established. It was a craft and various metal workers over the world created different forms but if you are looking for German tribes the closest in ancient period is likely the roman military steel created in Noricum(Austria/Slovenia). Damascus steel and other types of steel produced in Merv and maybe India was beginning to be scientific in nature by 1100 as some of the Arab writings describe 3-4 different processes to create steel and the merits, costs, and uses of each.

[Blxz]

Charcoal would have been most commonly used right up to nearly the start of the industrial age but I think there are records of surface coal deposits being exploited as early as Aristotle when some treatises written in Athens mention coal mining by metal workers. Romans in Britian and Rhineland seemed to have made some limited use of coal as well but it would have beem mostly for making bronze and maybe some early types of iron. Steel was relatively rare until the industrial age and mostly developed accidentally and the science of its production not established. It was a craft and various metal workers over the world created different forms but if you are looking for German tribes the closest in ancient period is likely the roman military steel created in Noricum(Austria/Slovenia). Damascus steel and other types of steel produced in Merv and maybe India was beginning to be scientific in nature by 1100 as some of the Arab writings describe 3-4 different processes to create steel and the merits, costs, and uses of each.

Excellent stuff. That pointed me in the right direction. Thanks for the info.

[cmacq]

Your question was...

First question. Was steel made by German tribes at all? I know they were iron poor and I am not sure about their technology in regards to steel making.

Secondly, How did they make the steel if they did have the technology to make it? I suspect most likely it would have been through the use of charcoal for the carbon enrichment but I believe there are/were significant amounts of coal in the ground in those regions. Did they mine and use coal at all or was it entirely based off wood charcoal?

However, the thread was titled Information on Iron/steel making in and around germania. So, I'm not sure if you are asking about one of the seven major ethnos that occupied greater Germania in the EB time frame, or all of them?

[Megas Methuselah]

You must first explain to us ignorant masses what these seven ethnos are.

[Blxz]

Your question was...

(Blxz said stuff here but the quote won't show)

However, the thread was titled Information on Iron/steel making in and around germania. So, I'm not sure if you are asking about one of the seven major ethnos that occupied greater Germania in the EB time frame, or all of them?

Nope, thats pretty much needlessly making things more complicated. While the distinction is important when considering this time period and as a historian I am more focused on the geology and mineralogy and in the periods that followed the EB time. Ichon gave me pretty much exactly what i needed to hear and I have done a little more follow on research from there.

Perhaps my title was not spot on but I wanted to be broad enough and didn't actually think that much attention to the wording would be displayed. Otherwise cmacq, if you have some extra information about certain ethnos that may be different from what Ichon has said please feel free to give me a concise summary as well as some recommended reading. The point of this thread was as information gathering.

Thanks.

[cmacq]

Perhaps my title was not spot on but I wanted to be broad enough and didn't actually think that much attention to the wording would be displayed. Otherwise cmacq, if you have some extra information about certain ethnos that may be different from what Ichon has said please feel free to give me a concise summary as well as some recommended reading. The point of this thread was as information gathering.

The reason is as much a difference between day (very high grade) as in the Noric (Celto-Germanic) blade on the one hand, or in the other, night (so very low grade) as in Swabian (proto/common-western Germanic) blade. Although the center of Noric steel was immediately south of the Danube, the Noric Celts were Boii Celts and thus both were Volcae, as Noric weapons ore was widely used in production throughout southwestern Germania before the mid 1st century BC. The method of Noric ore procurement and steel manufacture was so good it inspired the Celtic long sword and later became the center of Roman (that is western or European) arms production. At the other end of the spectrum was early Swabian steel production (if one may be so bold as to call it steel). It was focused (actually its manufacture was anything but concentrated) on the lower Elbe, and its quality was so unbelievably poor, it inspired the Germanic single-edged sword. The main reason this steel was so bad was because of the complex method of the low-grade iron procurement. Also the so-called 'Iron-poor' statement said to have come from Tacitus, is much better rendered as that the Germanics 'sparingly-used iron.' In fact, one of the largest pre- and proto-historic Iron producing regions in Europe was centered on the upper Vistula basin, found well within greater Germania, as defined by Tacitus, in what is today southern Poland. Additionally, in the 1st century AD, this area became the most important steel and arms manufacturing centers anywhere within greater Germania. However, before the 2nd century AD this area was appearently not 'largely' occupied by proto/common-western Germanic types.

In other words, in the ERIA, the upper Vistula had become the bloody ‘Armamentarium Europa Barbarorum,’ or the 'Arsenal of Barbarian Europe.'

[cmacq]

You must first explain to us ignorant masses what these seven ethnos are.

Rather off topic here, no? OK, heres a bone; in greater Germania as the Romans called an ethnic group of the far north the 'Finns,' for one.

[gamegeek2]

From what I understand, these ethnos would be (with examples of each): Finns, Lugians/West Balts, Istriavones (Volcae, Boii), Herminones (Suebi), Ingaevones (Cimbri, Frisii), Scandinavians (Geats, Danes/Dani, Jutes/Eudoses, and Swedes/Suiones), and Venedi (which seems to have been used as a general term for non-Lugian Balts).

[cmacq]

From what I understand, these ethnos would be (with examples of each): Finns, Lugians/West Balts, Istriavones (Volcae, Boii), Herminones (Suebi), Ingaevones (Cimbri, Frisii), Scandinavians (Geats, Danes/Dani, Jutes/Eudoses, and Swedes/Suiones), and Venedi (which seems to have been used as a general term for non-Lugian Balts).

Wenn man so viel voraus hat in der Tat eine viel zu viel vermutet und Nachsicht ist nicht ohne Rand!

Sind wir klar??

Wenn Sie brauchen, um Ihr Können als Forscher beweisen, brauche ich eine individuelle Fähigkeit zur Keramik-und Begräbnis Informationen zu finden. Wenn diese kleine Aufgabe ist zu weit unten, dann bitte Ärger diesem Thema mit dem, was die meisten privaten, nicht weiter!

[vollorix]

I´m wondering what kind of language this is? It sounds German, but it actually isn´t *hmm*

[Ichon]

What? lol... my German is not as good as it used to be but I can understand almost everything he said no problem so I'm sure its German. Why do you think it isn't?

[stratigos vasilios]

There are alot of Dutch speaking members at the org, maybe that's the confusion?

[vollorix]

Wenn man so viel voraus hat in der Tat eine viel zu viel vermutet und Nachsicht ist nicht ohne Rand!

Sind wir klar??

Wenn Sie brauchen, um Ihr Können als Forscher beweisen, brauche ich eine individuelle Fähigkeit zur Keramik-und Begräbnis Informationen zu finden. Wenn diese kleine Aufgabe ist zu weit unten, dann bitte Ärger diesem Thema mit dem, was die meisten privaten, nicht weiter!

Well, the words are German, and one could extrapolate some sense out of them, but it sounds like if you speak a language using another one´s grammar as basics; this actually sounds like a translation by a "machine".

[Ichon]

Well, the words are German, and one could extrapolate some sense out of them, but it sounds like if you speak a language using another one´s grammar as basics; this actually sounds like a translation by a "machine".

Ah- yeah I see what you mean. I thought maybe German isn't his first language. I sometimes sound like that when I speak it because I haven't lived there in at least 12 years and while I remember vocabulary I forget the grammar rules.

[cmacq]

I hope, none have found my German usage, overly obtuse? Although not to draw too fine a point, the attention it claims, I must say in deed, has served us well.

Nonetheless, Deutsche Grammatik has never been my strong suit.

[Blxz]

I hope, none have found my German usage, overly obtuse? Although not to draw too fine a point, the attention it claims, I must say in deed, has served us well.

Nonetheless, Deutsche Grammatik has never been my strong suit.

Still got no idea what it means.

[athanaric]

Dås isch in dr Tåt ziëmlich konfus.

Sind wir klar??

That's an Anglicism ("are we clear?"). The correct form would be "Klar soweit?" or "Hast/Haben du/Sie mich verstanden?". The latter though is distinctly un-friendly in this context, while the former is colloquial.

[cmacq]

Dås isch in dr Tåt ziëmlich konfus.


That's an Anglicism ("are we clear?"). The correct form would be "Klar soweit?" or "Hast/Haben du/Sie mich verstanden?". The latter though is distinctly un-friendly in this context, while the former is colloquial.

Thank you, but lets not gloss over this 'Iron/Steel Thing.'

[Tellos Athenaios]

There are alot of Dutch speaking members at the org, maybe that's the confusion?

Dutch looks different. You can tell at a glance which is which using the fact that German uses capitals, umlauts and the like much more often.