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Thread: Euro Area

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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Euro Area

    Basically if one scans the news media in a broad sense you can see a trend here that Portugal is next and therefore Spain.

    If this all comes to pass the EFSF fund will run out and the Euro has a major problem lots of debt and no money left to bail out Spain.

    The debt will be devalued and banks will be wound up the Euro will be severely weakened and what little gra anyone has for the Euro will go with them.

    It seemed such a good idea at the time save the Euro by preventing a default of the PIIGS debt but I don't think it is going to work.

    On Morning Ireland a few hours ago, Amadeu Altfaj Tardio, Spokesman for the European Commissioner Olli Rehn, was asked by RTE’s Rachael English (about 5.08 minutes in) whether the EU would countenance senior bond holders sharing the burden as part of the Irish bailout.

    Possibly Amadeu didn’t quite understand the question (though he was asked it twice in pretty clear terms.) Anyway, my understanding of his response was that he could countenance this type of burden sharing. He said the issue “was under discussion” though it seems as though he meant this in the sense of a general Euro-area policy in this area was being discussed, rather than that he knew that this issue was being discussed in the current Irish bailout negotiations.

    Further clarifications on this issue should probably be sought.

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/
    Some more economists on our debt if your bored enough

    http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/Let's do some arithmetic again:
    Leni's Proposition 2: Through 2011 IRL Gov will need
    €18bn in deficit financing +
    €30-40bn in deposits shoring +
    €15bn in banks capital (note - some this can be spread over couple of years)+
    Banks losses cover of, say, another €10bn =
    Grand Total of 73-83bn.
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...t-2432959.htmlSo the Government finally gave up the charade last weekend and asked for help from the IMF and EU. Following a week when everyone, save certain government ministers, seemed to know what was coming, it came as a great relief to the markets when Finance Minister Brian Lenihan made his announcement.

    When markets opened on Monday, the crisis was over. Bank shares were up, our bond spreads moved to levels only slightly above German bunds and investors were tripping over themselves to throw money into the Irish economy.

    Hang on, that's not right, is it?

    If anything, things in the market have gotten worse. If we ignore the political implosion here and look to the wider European situation for a moment, we can see how little all the 'will we, won't we' agonising that happened here last week actually mattered.

    The markets know Ireland's economy is not going to recover any time soon, and that rolling over our debt is going to do nothing to solve our problems. Furthermore, whatever chance Ireland has of recovery will be extinguished by a four-year austerity plan.

    Having made that assessment of our prospects, the market has moved on. Ireland to them is yesterday's news. Today's news is Portugal, which announced a worsening deficit yesterday -- despite months of austerity measures. (Sound familiar?) Tomorrow's news will be Spain, the '800-pound gorilla' of the peripheral EU states -- so-called because of its huge €1.1 trillion economy. Spain had an auction of short-term debt yesterday that failed to sell the expected amount even at higher yields, an exact mirror of Ireland's experiences in the bond market in September.

    But why do market reactions to developments in the Iberian Peninsula matter to us?

    First, the problem with Spain is that it is probably too big to save. Neither the EU nor the IMF has the money to bail them out, and it is unlikely Germany would be willing to foot another reunification-sized bill to save their Spanish cousins. As Olli Rehn put it on Monday: "It is essential to stop the financial bushfire concerning Ireland before it becomes a European-wide forest fire."

    For Mr Rehn, it seems it might be too late. In fact, if there was ever a 'sell' signal to the markets, it was Olli's comments.

    Secondly, the EU-wide crisis is an opportunity for Ireland.

    In 'Follow the Money' I explained the domino theory of international relations that led the US into Vietnam. The idea was to stop the spread of communism in Vietnam before the whole region became lost to US influence. That same theory is being applied to the EU's actions in the peripheral states. They are fighting in Ireland to prevent a national bankruptcy in order for the whole euro project to avoid a similar fate.

    How is this an opportunity for us? Let's look at the numbers. Taking account of sovereign bond redemptions and deficits, Ireland needs about €74bn over the next four years. The banks are getting €90bn of funding from the ECB and another €35bn from the Irish Central Bank. So, to get everyone off the hook, €199bn is needed. We can add that number to the national debt (net of redemptions by 2014 and cash balances) of €76bn and come up with a total of €275bn. Or just over 200pc of GNP.

    There is no hope of Ireland ever being able to repay this amount. Nominally, if there is a large growth of inflation in the European and Irish economy, it might be possible, but with tight monetary control from Frankfurt, that is not going to happen.

    So we need burden sharing with bank bondholders to reduce the liability the State has encumbered itself with through the mishandling of the bank guarantee. The alternative being presented by the run on Spain is that sovereign default is not only more likely, but should be viewed as being in Ireland's best interest. Loading up on IMF and EU debt right now -- in order to bail out the banks -- only makes sense for us if we have no intention of paying the money back.

    The European-wide 'forest fire' referred to by Olli Rehn will burn through all sovereign debt as weakness in the unbailout-able Spain causes an existential crisis for the euro. We would default because we would have to. It would be chaotic, and it would probably spell the end of the euro.

    It could easily be seen as dishonest for Ireland to take on this debt while aware of what is probably coming down the tracks, but considering how distracted our leaders are at the moment about saving their own skins in the upcoming election, there is a good chance they do not know how bad the situation is in southern Europe.

    There is also a chance they have not yet figured out the gravity of the threat the Spanish situation poses to the euro project. But the 'nobody saw this coming' argument is tired by now, and cannot be allowed as an excuse any more. It is dishonest to fill our boots with IMF and EU money, but the IMF/EU are being equally dishonest about the situation by giving the money to us.

    The honest thing to do is to realise what the problem is (the banks) and admit that pouring further cash into those black holes is theft -- from either the Irish taxpayer if we pay the loans back or from the IMF/EU if we default on their loans. The honest thing to do is pass a bank resolution which swaps the debt for shares -- a debt-equity swap in the banks -- and get that €120bn liability off the national and international balance sheet.

    Then we can start to sort out the real problems in the Irish economy, and show the IMF the madness that is contained in their latest spin on 'expansionary fiscal contraction' which they published on Monday.


    - David McWilliams
    I get the feeling this will not turn out the way everyone wants it too.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-14-2013 at 18:59.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Exclamation Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    I get the feeling this will not turn out the way everyone wants it too.
    Here's my thoughts about Europe's financial stability and the future of the Euro:


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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    IMF your our only Hope
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    stories in papers today about spain denying its needs a bailout as bond spreads creep up, i think we have seeen this trend before, no?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    So William Hague was right in 1998 when he said Britain shouldn't join the Euro?

    Wow, and everybody was Soooooo mean!

    [Childishness - off]

    If Britain had joined the Euro we would probably be Spain, and Spain would be Ireland, and Ireland would be a minor irritant by comparison.

    The problem is structural to the EU project, and it's the forseeable result of arse-backwards attempts at political union under the theory that monetary union will lead to the ultimate goal of - The Project.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    The Euro isn't faulty. It was the economical ministers of various countries who didn't use the opportunity of the Euro to reform and invest, opposed to blowing it all on partying.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    If the Euro is faulty, then how come Germany, France etc. are doing just fine and can afford to bail all the others out?
    People are blaming the Euro for all sorts of things but the truth is that the change towards the Euro was used by greedy people to fool a lot of other people into very unfortunate positions, and it worked splendidly, because most people blame the Euro instead of the greedy people, yeah, we should really lock that Euro up and then the world will be Utopia again as it was before...


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    It might be greedy people at fault, but the Euro has aided them.

    Ideally I'd not lock my front door, nor have passwords on my online banking, as only thieves are going to try to steal things. Well, seeing as how I live in the real world I have to factor in things to prevent events occurring.

    Although the whole world living under one set of rules and one currency might be the utopia that some want, that does not mean it'd work. Saying the Euro would work if it were not for Europeans isn't much use.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    José Christos O'Donnel: Wow, what nice Mercedes you've got
    Heinz: Yes, it was a lot of hard work, years of saving
    MCoD: Want
    Heinz: Sure. You can have it. You need savings. A solid job. A strong, stable currency.
    MCoD: Want
    Heinz: Sure, you can share my currency. But with it comes responsibility. You shall have to save, maintain the value of it, be disciplined.
    MCoD: Yes, yes. I shall be disciplined.
    Heinz: Okay, have my currency. Your purchasing power will increase. But with a strong currency comes tremendous responsibility. So you shall have to be careful, disciplined. You shall have to save, keep an eye on your spending.
    MCoD: I will! I will! I'll be disciplined, I swear!
    Heinz: Oookaay...here you go. Here's your currency, your economy is now tied to mine.
    MCoD: Woot woot! I'm rich! I'm going to buy a mercedes right away! And a second home too! There's more money were that came from! I'm the king of the world! And look mama: no taxes!


    ....and crash.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    It might be greedy people at fault, but the Euro has aided them.

    Ideally I'd not lock my front door, nor have passwords on my online banking, as only thieves are going to try to steal things. Well, seeing as how I live in the real world I have to factor in things to prevent events occurring.

    Although the whole world living under one set of rules and one currency might be the utopia that some want, that does not mean it'd work. Saying the Euro would work if it were not for Europeans isn't much use.

    That's a fun angle. Truth in there.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If the Euro is faulty, then how come Germany, France etc. are doing just fine and can afford to bail all the others out?
    People are blaming the Euro for all sorts of things but the truth is that the change towards the Euro was used by greedy people to fool a lot of other people into very unfortunate positions, and it worked splendidly, because most people blame the Euro instead of the greedy people, yeah, we should really lock that Euro up and then the world will be Utopia again as it was before...
    The idea is not bad per se, but the implementation is at fault. As you say, Germany's economy was used by Ireland etc. to buy cheap dept, and this was encouraged (lets not pretend otherwise) as a way of increasing the size of these economies and levelly living standards.

    the problem is that the dept was not cleared before the crash, or was too large to clear.

    The problem is structural to the project.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Although the whole world living under one set of rules and one currency might be the utopia that some want, that does not mean it'd work. Saying the Euro would work if it were not for Europeans isn't much use.
    That isn't correct. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with a shared law and currency. If anything, the benefits of such a set-up would greatly outweigh those of having separate currencies and rules, especially on the practical scale.

    The problem is those who sought to exploit others, and found out that they can't simply run away from the problem. Having your own currency means you can decide to become the next inter-war Germany and Zimbabwe to 'pay' off your debts. The benefits of having a single currency, is that those bad partners cannot run away and be held accountable for their actions. Even though this is deemed a 'crisis', what will eventually happen, is that those held accountable will be held accountable, the social arena of those within Europe will change. People will now save, people will now honestly earn money. In short, people are getting fixed.
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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    The idea is not bad per se, but the implementation is at fault. As you say, Germany's economy was used by Ireland etc. to buy cheap dept, and this was encouraged (lets not pretend otherwise) as a way of increasing the size of these economies and levelly living standards.

    the problem is that the dept was not cleared before the crash, or was too large to clear.

    The problem is structural to the project.
    The problems are tied to the project indeed. But then, it is a 'project', work in progress. The idea is to work towards economical unity through a common currency.

    One can however question the wisdom of having a common currency before a common economical policy. Human nature and the short-sighted nature of contemporary politics being what they are, no adjustments will be made unless forced too. Now Europe's periphery shall have to reform in a crisis atmosphere, with painful austerity measures that punish the ones least responsible for any of this mess.


    The stronger economies should not be too smug. Like the periphery, when push came to shove, they chose their own interests over those of others. Germany has done what is good for Germany, with disregard for the smaller economies tied to its currency and economic policy.

    Even in the bailouts, first on the mind of Europe's core has been its own interest.


    There must be an ultimate test for all policy: it must serve a concrete good for concrete people over an abstract principle. This is one of the key aspects of a democracy. One forfeits a lot of strategical planning, but it puts the human first, which is the ultimate goal of democracy. I question whether the interest of the Irish pensioner, the unemployed Greek, have been foremost in the mind of Brussels.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    The Euro isn't faulty. It was the economical ministers of various countries who didn't use the opportunity of the Euro to reform and invest, opposed to blowing it all on partying.
    Rory has already beaten me to the punch: "Saying the Euro would work if it were not for Europeans isn't much use."

    The euro, as presently constructed is at fault, having a monetary union without a fiscal union is quite frankly retarded.

    Having a fiscal union only works if your collective peopleS will accept a transfer union, to prevent imbalances tearing your 'single' economy apart.

    Anyone fancy asking a hard working german how keen they will be to bail out portugal before christmas, having already bailed out ireland and greece?
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    A unified currency does prevent inflation, but doesn't prevent the movement of individuals. What is happening is that emigration is again starting in Ireland as many are not prepared to wait the economy rebalancing and putting up with years of austerity. These are not the dockworkers, but graduates who are leaving for stabler climes. And with them goes the money that they could earn the economy.

    Who can blame them?

    Ireland is then left with the debt with a population which has been skimmed of the most able people. I don't see how a single currency is helping fix this problem. Theoretically it should prevent it happening, and it definitely didn't help do that.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Anyone fancy asking a hard working german how keen they will be to bail out portugal before christmas, having already bailed out ireland and greece?
    while you are at it you can ask the German how he will handle not having the customers in those countries to buy those cars he makes.
    an interesting follow up question is to ask why on the last month the German government seems intent on dumping gasoline on the fire...it seems every time Merkel or any other German government figure says something it's always the last thing that should be said at that moment.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    In short, people are getting fixed.
    Heaven save us all from being "fixed".

    Stalin believed he could "fix" people Beskar, such a belief stems from the conviction one is not oneself broken and therefore knows better than those needing to be "fixed."

    In any case, those suffering most are those most likely to be fiscally responsible (because they are poor) while those suffering least are the ones who created the mess. This is not an acceptable price to pay for creating your own particular type of European Uberman.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla View Post
    Heaven save us all from being "fixed".

    Stalin believed he could "fix" people Beskar, such a belief stems from the conviction one is not oneself broken and therefore knows better than those needing to be "fixed."
    Jesus believe he could "fix" people, Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla.

    Though you are incorrect about your assumption, I know I am imperfect myself, and I attempt to make myself better. I am not that egotistic to assume I am perfect.

    In any case, those suffering most are those most likely to be fiscally responsible (because they are poor) while those suffering least are the ones who created the mess. This is not an acceptable price to pay for creating your own particular type of European Uberman.
    Actually, you are incorrect there. You know me well enough to know that wouldn't be the case, if I was in control of things.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    independent reckons there needs to be a european act of union to save the eurozone:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...y-2146371.html
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Yes, it's currently a bodge-job. Neither one nor the other, and by and large forced on the persons under it (who were admittedly in the main fine with it when everything appeared to be going well...)

    The UK works as it has been there for so long. If the English for example were aware of how much it costs to hang on to Wales they might be far more peeved at sharing the union with them (let alone Northern Ireland). But it has been thus for so long that it is not thought of in purely fiscal terms any more.

    For political Union, awkward questions have to be addressed: does Germany really want to be paying vast sums of money annually to the PIGS? How the hell will retirement ages / pension annuities / wages be set? Colonies? All lumped in together or all let go? Languages? All speak the one language whose country isn't involved? One capital? Sorting out all the technicalities - it might be cheaper and easier to have a European war over it (at least there are far fewer countries with a decent army than there are with a strident view over their "rights").

    Easier to lurch along. After all, the EU technocrats have index-linked pensions, so no need to worry, eh?

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 11-29-2010 at 16:25.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Jesus believe he could "fix" people, Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla.
    Yes, but - crucially he claimed to be God himself and the originator of our reality; and infallable.

    Though you are incorrect about your assumption, I know I am imperfect myself, and I attempt to make myself better. I am not that egotistic to assume I am perfect.
    You carry the Communist impluses without the philosophical backing, it has always appeared to me.

    Actually, you are incorrect there. You know me well enough to know that wouldn't be the case, if I was in control of things.
    You plan to forcibly confiscate the wealth of the bankers, then?

    Otherwise the rich will escape, as usual.
    Last edited by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus; 11-29-2010 at 16:22.
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    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    while you are at it you can ask the German how he will handle not having the customers in those countries to buy those cars he makes.
    an interesting follow up question is to ask why on the last month the German government seems intent on dumping gasoline on the fire...it seems every time Merkel or any other German government figure says something it's always the last thing that should be said at that moment.
    The reason Merkel is to use your own words "dumping gasoline on the fire" is she has probably copped too late that the nuclear scenario is now inevitable. We know from leaks in our own Department of Finance that "The ECB us" is the refrain repeated by the civil servants inside it, the ECB had hoped to ease Ireland into the bailout with out spooking investors in Spanish and Portuguese debt. It failed because she was saying the right thing for the long term health of the Euro but not the right thing for a short term view from Brussels with regard to Ireland or more corrrectly our Banks.

    If we examine some of the statements from Euro finance ministers lately we can see a picture of a Europe that has copped that we have a spoofer in charge of monetary policy in the Euro Area. How do I know he is a spoofer pretty simple the ECB stressed tested out banks only a short while back and gave them a thumbs up, that has top be the biggest laugh ever I expect Germany will demand a head from the ECB soon.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
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    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  23. #23
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    I really have no idea what's going on how, where and why. Glad I can read up here. For you who are better informed, what would be the consequence if we returned to the guilder. We are an export/trading nation is what they scream, but Europe is not the same thing as EU, wouldn't we benefit from fluxuations of the euro as long as our export stays intact, and it will, no country can compete with our capacity to produce and move stuff

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I really have no idea what's going on how, where and why. Glad I can read up here. For you who are better informed, what would be the consequence if we returned to the guilder. We are an export/trading nation is what they scream, but Europe is not the same thing as EU, wouldn't we benefit from fluxuations of the euro as long as our export stays intact, and it will, no country can compete with our capacity to produce and move stuff
    It really is not possible for Netherlands to return to the Guilder as the fact is the smaller and some larger countries too will owe massive sums in Euro while using a different currency to pay back, basically it would be a disaster really as the debts would be worth more than the local currency.

    However if Germany were to leave the Euro and create a strong D-mark upon leaving it then the poorer/smaller/whoever countries would now have a currency more suited to there needs. The key to leaving is the Euro is market confidence that the currency will be strong this would clearly be the case for Germany and that would practically end the Euro.

    Over a period of some years one could imagine a process where certain countries opted out one after the other as they migrated into a new stronger currency of there own, eventually the club is small enough to either stick with the euro or finally break it completely.

    This may sound apocalyptic but I see no way around this problem unless we fully integrate politically and that is not going to happen anytime soon.
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 11-29-2010 at 18:22.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  25. #25
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    But we aren't dependent, we have a stable economy, just about everything that goes to Europe goes through our hands first, I don't see how we can't return to it, people are also likely to invest in it for assurance, small but still too big to fall.
    Last edited by Fragony; 11-29-2010 at 18:33.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    But we aren't dependent, we have a stable economy, just about everything that goes to Europe goes through our hands first, I don't see how we can't return to it, people are also likely to invest in it for assurance, small but still too big to fall.
    Well it all depends on how strong the currency will be after leaving as I said earlier if it goes below the Euro it will destroy your economy as you will owe more than you can pay back. You would have to default the debt basically if it weakened and that might cause problems when returning to the bondmarkets, for a few years the Netherlands could be practically barred from market funding if you defaulted.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  27. #27
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Quote Originally Posted by gaelic cowboy View Post
    Well it all depends on how strong the currency will be after leaving as I said earlier if it goes below the Euro it will destroy your economy as you will owe more than you can pay back. You would have to default the debt basically if it weakened and that might cause problems when returning to the bondmarkets, for a few years the Netherlands could be practically barred from market funding if you defaulted.
    No that won't happen, there is only one harbour in Europe that can empty these ships, we can give the sanctions. The guilder could be a temple of security.

    (edit disclaimer I know absolutely nothing about economy)
    Last edited by Fragony; 11-29-2010 at 18:56.

  28. #28

    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Dutch debt isn't our biggest problem right now. Reason being: we *did* clear out our old debts before this new madness started, and unlike Ireland we still got a proper economy (as long as Germany, the UK, and France [in order of importance] have one so do we). In fact, you might remember that way back the finance ministries of the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. were kinda annoyed with “Heinz” and his French cousin for not being fiscally responsible according to the Maastricht treaty: they felt it set a bad example PIIGS would copy and fail to keep up with.
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  29. #29
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Well then you have to think who buys Dutch goods is it Germany, France etc or is it someone else. If it is Germany and you pull out but they don't you would have to weaken the currency and this would severely affect your banking sector as it likely owed lots by the PIIGS.

    If Germany pulled out and you did too you would have to try to ensure the currency was always below Germany but above the Euro. Thats if the euro existed anymore of course, which it would in some kind of form in order to service the debt.

    If Netherlands is not exposed to a large amount of PIIGS debt and Germany pulled out then you could pull out take a small hit on debt and then follow the new D-Mark.

    edit disclaimer obviously if Germany was not your main trading partner none of the previous thought experiment can happen.
    They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
    a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.

    Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy

  30. #30
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The continuing battle against the inevitable Euro area default

    Thought experiments are cool. We really don't need the EU, so why wouldn't we say kthxbye. German and French industry needs what is shipped here. Good luck building that

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