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Thread: NRA is too radical

  1. #91

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    I have the perfect solution. People want to ban assault rifles because the are afraid they kill people. However, handguns are what are really used in killing people, not rifles. So why don't we ban handguns and shotguns and have everyone buy rifles, semi and full auto?


  2. #92
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Banning handguns is unconstitutional and would be ineffective. It didn't lower the crime rate in Chicago, NYC, or Washington DC.

    Even a nationwide ban wouldn't work. There's over a hundred million handguns (IIRC) in the US and a cheap pistol is possible to make with some modern tools.

    So you can't get rid of them, and you'd probably help criminals the most, by assuring them any law abiding citizen they attack will be nearly defenseless.

    CR
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  3. #93

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Banning handguns is unconstitutional and would be ineffective. It didn't lower the crime rate in Chicago, NYC, or Washington DC.

    Even a nationwide ban wouldn't work. There's over a hundred million handguns (IIRC) in the US and a cheap pistol is possible to make with some modern tools.

    So you can't get rid of them, and you'd probably help criminals the most, by assuring them any law abiding citizen they attack will be nearly defenseless.

    CR
    I know. I was being facetious.


  4. #94
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Sometimes I can't tell.

    Also we haven't had a good gun control thread in a while and I want to get my shots (HA!) in.

    I do wish Warman would clarify somethings.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  5. #95

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Sometimes I can't tell.

    Also we haven't had a good gun control thread in a while and I want to get my shots (HA!) in.

    I do wish Warman would clarify somethings.

    CR
    That's alright. It's all good.


  6. #96

  7. #97
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    From Quadalpha's article:

    Richard Kastigar, a supervisor with the sheriff’s department, identified the gunman as a 22-year-old “with limited law enforcement experience.”
    I wonder what that means.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  8. #98

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    I am hearing conflicting reports on whether it was semi-automatic or automatic.


  9. #99

  10. #100
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    6 dead people should have no more bearing on gun rights than one dead person.

    I AM FULLY AWARE GUNS CAN BE USED TO MURDER PEOPLE AND I STILL THINK WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO OWN THEM. NO AMOUNT OF SOB STORIES WILL CHANGE MY MIND BECAUSE IF I WAS THE SUSEPTIBLE TO SUGGESTION IN THE FIRST PLACE I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO VOTE
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  11. #101
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    6 dead people should have no more bearing on gun rights than one dead person.

    I AM FULLY AWARE GUNS CAN BE USED TO MURDER PEOPLE AND I STILL THINK WE SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO OWN THEM. NO AMOUNT OF SOB STORIES WILL CHANGE MY MIND BECAUSE IF I WAS THE SUSEPTIBLE TO SUGGESTION IN THE FIRST PLACE I PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO VOTE
    And what of one and a half million dead Americans since the end of the Vietnam war?

    We need to run industrial deathcamps in Europe to reach those levels of civilian casualties.

    I realise the gun debate in America is over. The gun lobby has won. Perhaps in a generation or two sanity can be restored again. For now, I am happy if we can keep America's gun culture from exporting itself.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    England has very strict gun control laws. France much less so. America hardly any. The effect:



    Gun Homicide (per 100,000)

    Japan 0.03
    Singapore 0.07
    Taiwan 0.15
    Kuwait 0.34
    England/ Wales 0.07
    Scotland 0.19
    Netherlands 0.27
    Spain 0.19
    Ireland 0.30
    Germany 0.21
    Italy 1.16
    Sweden 0.18
    Denmark 0.23
    Israel 0.72
    New Zealand 0.22
    Australia 0.56
    Belgium 0.87
    Canada 0.60
    Norway 0.36
    Austria 0.42
    Northern Ireland 3.55
    France 0.55
    Switzerland 0.46
    Finland 0.87
    USA 6.24

    Rates of firearms deaths for most countries are from:

    United Nations Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice.
    International study on firearm regulation (revised). Vienna: United
    Nations, 1997.[tables 2.7, 6.2 and 7.1].
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
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  12. #102
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    No point talking sense to an American about guns, they live in a violent country where even bees kill and eat people alive. In the UK by comparison, bees are classified as "endangered species" and protected, because they cannot fend for themselves.
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  13. #103

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    [spoil]England has very strict gun control laws. France much less so. America hardly any. The effect:
    This is false, at least in relation to Britain (I don't have data on France). Gun crime (and crime in general) has always been significantly lower in Britain (and Europe) than in the US, both before and after the restrictive laws were put in place. The difference has far more to do with culture than the availibility of guns.

    * In 1920, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess any firearm except a shotgun. To obtain this certificate, the applicant had to pay a fee, and the chief of police had to be "satisfied" that the applicant had "good reason for requiring such a certificate" and did not pose a "danger to the public safety or to the peace." The certificate had to specify the types and quantities of firearms and ammunition that the applicant could purchase and keep.[38]

    * In 1968, Britain made the 1920 law stricter by requiring civilians to obtain a certificate from their district police chief in order to purchase or possess a shotgun. This law also required that firearm certificates specify the identification numbers ("if known") of all firearms and shotguns owned by the applicant.[39]

    * In 1997, Britain passed a law requiring civilians to surrender almost all privately owned handguns to the police. More than 162,000 handguns and 1.5 million pounds of ammunition were "compulsorily surrendered" by February 1998. Using "records of firearms held on firearms certificates," police accounted for all but fewer than eight of all legally owned handguns in England, Scotland, and Wales.[40]



    † Homicide data is published according to the years in which the police initially reported the offenses as homicides, which are not always the same years in which the incidents took place.
    ‡ Large anomalies unrelated to guns:
    2000: 58 Chinese people suffocated to death in a shipping container en route to the UK
    2002: 172 homicides reported when Dr. Harold Shipman was exposed for killing his patients
    2003: 20 cockle pickers drowned resulting in manslaughter charges
    2005: 52 people were killed in the July 7th London subway/bus bombings[41]

    * Not counting the above-listed anomalies, the British homicide rate has averaged 52% higher since the outset of the 1968 gun control law and 15% higher since the outset of the 1997 handgun ban.[42]
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 01-13-2011 at 02:27.

  14. #104
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    And what of one and a half million dead Americans since the end of the Vietnam war?

    We need to run industrial deathcamps in Europe to reach those levels of civilian casualties.

    I realise the gun debate in America is over. The gun lobby has won. Perhaps in a generation or two sanity can be restored again. For now, I am happy if we can keep America's gun culture from exporting itself.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    England has very strict gun control laws. France much less so. America hardly any. The effect:



    Gun Homicide (per 100,000)

    Japan 0.03
    Singapore 0.07
    Taiwan 0.15
    Kuwait 0.34
    England/ Wales 0.07
    Scotland 0.19
    Netherlands 0.27
    Spain 0.19
    Ireland 0.30
    Germany 0.21
    Italy 1.16
    Sweden 0.18
    Denmark 0.23
    Israel 0.72
    New Zealand 0.22
    Australia 0.56
    Belgium 0.87
    Canada 0.60
    Norway 0.36
    Austria 0.42
    Northern Ireland 3.55
    France 0.55
    Switzerland 0.46
    Finland 0.87
    USA 6.24

    Rates of firearms deaths for most countries are from:

    United Nations Commission on Crime Prevention and Criminal Justice.
    International study on firearm regulation (revised). Vienna: United
    Nations, 1997.[tables 2.7, 6.2 and 7.1].
    Hmm, maybe we ought to look at Switzerland. Most of the USA is due to gang violence, and conflicts over drugs. Stay out of that and the likelihood is significantly lower.

    And hey, doesn't Northern Ireland have the same gun laws as England?

    Also, IIRC roughly four times as many people die in car accidents in the USA.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  15. #105
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    IIRC roughly four times as many people die in car accidents in the USA.
    Which is why we need autobahns. Now.

  16. #106

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    As a Swede growing up with state controlled TV I was very much against the US take on guns..

    I have however changed my mind as of late. Most gun related traumas are dealt with within the lower class. Basically a Darwinistic favor, one might argue. Sure, more guns will lead to more meaningless deaths.. But then, I can trade 6 ghetto guys for me having a gun whenever I or my family is at risk.

    So statistics - bleh!

    It is more about who is saved, rather than what number is saved. It is more about who gets killed, than the number of slain.
    Few are born with it, even fewer know what to do with it.

  17. #107

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibumi View Post
    As a Swede growing up with state controlled TV I was very much against the US take on guns..

    I have however changed my mind as of late. Most gun related traumas are dealt with within the lower class. Basically a Darwinistic favor, one might argue. Sure, more guns will lead to more meaningless deaths.. But then, I can trade 6 ghetto guys for me having a gun whenever I or my family is at risk.

    So statistics - bleh!

    It is more about who is saved, rather than what number is saved. It is more about who gets killed, than the number of slain.
    My new favorite backroom contributor.

  18. #108
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    A friend of mine was cleaning her shogun and blew her brains out in front of her family. husband and kids both.



    Doesn't change the fact she should've checked the breach and not pointed the end with the hole towards her

    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    A friend of mine was cleaning her shogun and blew her brains out in front of her family. husband and kids both.



    Doesn't change the fact she should've checked the breach and not pointed the end with the hole towards her

    Yeesh. Simply horriffic.
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  20. #110
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    And hey, doesn't Northern Ireland have the same gun laws as England?
    Terrorism only accounted for about 3500 odd deaths in the North over 30yrs thats bombings, shootings and beating people to death.

    Not to make light of the North but most US states could prob easy pass that in 30 yrs
    Last edited by gaelic cowboy; 01-18-2011 at 02:23.
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  21. #111
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Shibumi View Post
    As a Swede growing up with state controlled TV I was very much against the US take on guns..

    I have however changed my mind as of late. Most gun related traumas are dealt with within the lower class. Basically a Darwinistic favor, one might argue. Sure, more guns will lead to more meaningless deaths.. But then, I can trade 6 ghetto guys for me having a gun whenever I or my family is at risk.

    So statistics - bleh!

    It is more about who is saved, rather than what number is saved. It is more about who gets killed, than the number of slain.
    Black ghetto gangstas don't kill people.


    Republicans do.



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  22. #112
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Not gonna respond, Louis?

    Also, your map includes not homicides but all deaths where people used guns. Since over 50% of people killed by guns in the US are suicides, that map is kind of useless. More rural people will use guns more often for suicide since they're more available. It's a useless graph.

    The second chart ; correlation does not imply causation. So, your chart is meaningless. Also, it's still based on total deaths caused by people with firearms - including suicides. The whole chart is useless, as the suicides skew the data completely. Doubly useless.



    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Black ghetto gangstas don't kill people.

    Republicans do.
    CR
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  23. #113
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
    Hmm, maybe we ought to look at Switzerland. Most of the USA is due to gang violence, and conflicts over drugs. Stay out of that and the likelihood is significantly lower.

    And hey, doesn't Northern Ireland have the same gun laws as England?

    Also, IIRC roughly four times as many people die in car accidents in the USA
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Not gonna respond, Louis?
    In Switzerland, gun ownership is very much tied to being part of a well-regulated militia, necessary to the security of a free state etc etc.

    A true citizen militia, the members of which bear arms - this is the Swiss understanding of the traditional republican right of citizens to bear arms. And not the modern interpretation of the 2nd that is best summed up as 'all the rights, none of the responsibilities'.

    I claim the difference between Swizerland and America, in irresponsible gun use and the far higher US homicide rate, is owing to the difference in the responsibilities citizens are willing to accept for the right to be an arms bearing citizen, in particular, the demand to be part of a well-regulated militia in actual fact.


    Gaelic discussed Northern Ireland already.


    Car accidents are a tragedy. But they can hardly serve to justify another injustice. Also, gun ownership correlates with causing traffic accidents. People with guns cause far more traffic deaths than people without guns.
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  24. #114
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    . In Switzerland, gun ownership is very much tied to being part of a well-regulated militia, necessary to the security of a free state etc etc.

    A true citizen militia, the members of which bear arms - this is the Swiss understanding of the traditional republican right of citizens to bear arms. And not the modern interpretation of the 2nd that is best summed up as 'all the rights, none of the responsibilities'.

    I claim the difference between Swizerland and America, in irresponsible gun use and the far higher US homicide rate, is owing to the difference in the responsibilities citizens are willing to accept for the right to be an arms bearing citizen, in particular, the demand to be part of a well-regulated militia in actual fact.
    So gun ownership isn't the problem? And gun laws aren't the problem?

    If you want to high-mindedly blame 'lack of responsibility' then blame the anti-gun politicians who do their best to prevent children from learning about guns from responsible teachers or parents. The gun culture of the US - the law abiding citizens who own guns - would gladly help defend their country, and teach responsibility to new shooters. But moronic government officials cry in hysterics about the dangers of guns and many kids learn about guns not from a class at school, like sex-ed, but from movies, gangster culture, etc.

    Car accidents are a tragedy. But they can hardly serve to justify another injustice. Also, gun ownership correlates with causing traffic accidents. People with guns cause far more traffic deaths than people without guns.


    Correlation. Is. Not. Causation.



    Also, the comparison serves to highlight our irrational approach to dangers. People do not fear the most probable, but the most publicized danger. And they therefore approach danger irrationally; ie by wanting to ban guns.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  25. #115
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    So gun ownership isn't the problem? And gun laws aren't the problem?

    If you want to high-mindedly blame 'lack of responsibility' then blame the anti-gun politicians who do their best to prevent children from learning about guns from responsible teachers or parents. The gun culture of the US - the law abiding citizens who own guns - would gladly help defend their country, and teach responsibility to new shooters. But moronic government officials cry in hysterics about the dangers of guns and many kids learn about guns not from a class at school, like sex-ed, but from movies, gangster culture, etc.





    Correlation. Is. Not. Causation.



    Also, the comparison serves to highlight our irrational approach to dangers. People do not fear the most probable, but the most publicized danger. And they therefore approach danger irrationally; ie by wanting to ban guns.

    CR
    * stares back *

    'Gun ownership correlates with causing traffic accidents. People with guns cause far more traffic deaths than people without guns'.


    This is true. People with guns cause more traffic accidents than people without. Whether this is owing to, or the result of, gun ownership is another manner - this causation is not established by mere correlation. Nor is it implied in the two statments above.

    The correlation I think is owing to a common character trait. People who enjoy guns have a more agressive personality and are more willing to put the lives of others at risk. These arer also the people who tend to create most traffic accidents, at least most deadly accidents. Hence why gun owners create much more traffic accidents than people without guns.


    Of course one can't ban either cars or guns. The former are needed because it is how people move around. The latter is needed because, well, because the NRA owns Washington, because a gun makes many men feel powerful and in control, and to erm...to defend against tyranny or something.
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  26. #116
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Aahhh..bliss. I have not dabbled in a good, old-fashioned gun debate for far too long.


    I'm now also going to start an abortion and an evolution thread. It's been too long.
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  27. #117
    Senior Member Senior Member gaelic cowboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Just open a thread called The EnormousUltimateMegaHugeGiganto Godwin Thread instead.
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  28. #118
    Member Member Tuuvi's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    * stares back *

    'Gun ownership correlates with causing traffic accidents. People with guns cause far more traffic deaths than people without guns'.


    This is true. People with guns cause more traffic accidents than people without. Whether this is owing to, or the result of, gun ownership is another manner - this causation is not established by mere correlation. Nor is it implied in the two statments above.

    The correlation I think is owing to a common character trait. People who enjoy guns have a more agressive personality and are more willing to put the lives of others at risk. These arer also the people who tend to create most traffic accidents, at least most deadly accidents. Hence why gun owners create much more traffic accidents than people without guns.


    Of course one can't ban either cars or guns. The former are needed because it is how people move around. The latter is needed because, well, because the NRA owns Washington, because a gun makes many men feel powerful and in control, and to erm...to defend against tyranny or something.
    What makes you think people who like guns are more aggressive and more willing to put the lives of others at risk? I don't think this is true for most gun owners. When my grandpa taught me how to shoot, the first thing he told me was "the gun is always loaded". He would have been really angry with me and wouldn't have let me shoot if I wasn't careful with the gun. Anyone I've ever gone shooting with was just as conscious of safety. I enjoy shooting, but whenever I'm holding a gun around other people I feel a little nervous because of the potential to cause serious harm to another person.
    Last edited by Tuuvi; 01-23-2011 at 06:19.

  29. #119

    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Stereotypes about people with guns are just stupid. I know so many people who are really just great people, and they own guns. It doesn't mean jack about someone's personality if one owns a gun or not.


  30. #120
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re: NRA is to radcial

    Statistics say very little about the individual, they reveal the larger pattern.

    100 million Americans own a gun. Fifty thousand gun-related deaths. That means that 99,999,950 people kept their guns safe and used them responsibly. A truely overwhelming majority.
    One does not need personal anecdotal evidence to show that an overwhelming amount of gun owners are responsible.



    Still, gun owners do have smaller penises.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    ...or such is apparantly the opinion of anti-gun crusaders.

    I must say I am fine with being consistently called a 'crusader' in an article with academic pretences, in exchange for the author, a gun lobbyist, seriously adressing the problem of the public perception of gun oweners as being sadly underendowed.
    PEJORATIVE CHARACTERIZATIONS OF GUN OWNERSHIP

    1. The Penis Theory--{40}

    Reviewing unsubstantiated, mostly "derogatory... speculative literature on the personality characteristics of gun owners", the NIJ Evaluation (p. 120) mentions "the psychoanalytic" view that "weapons are phallic symbols representing male dominance and masculine power." The idea of gun ownership as sexual aberration has been casually espoused by such anti-gun luminaries as Arthur Schlessinger, Jr., Harlan Ellison, Mike Royko and Joyce Brothers.{41} The only serious study endorsing this view is by psychiatrist Emmanuel Tanay who sees "the need for a gun" as serving "libidinal purposes ... to enhance or repair a damaged self-image...", and involving "narcissism..., [p]assivity and insecurity".{42}
    There is no viable argument for the penis theory as against pragmatic explanations for gun ownership. Psychiatrist Bruce Danto rejects the penis theory because it fails to account for female gun ownership. In fact, 50% of those who own a gun for protection only are women (especially black women), even though women are much less likely than men to own guns for sport.{43} To say the very least, this pattern is more easily explicable by reference to women's felt need for protection than by feelings of penile inadequacy.
    Dr. Danto also notes that the penis theory would predict that male gun owners would be inclined toward the largest barrel and bore weapons available. But the respective popularity of guns of different sizes uniformly appears to reflect purely pragmatic concerns.{44} The penis theory is equally incapable of explaining other demographic differentials in gun ownership. When all gun owners are counted (not just those who own for protection alone) survey evidence shows that
    gun owners are disproportionately rural, Southern, male, Protestant, affluent and middle class... [and that] weapons ownership tends to increase with income, or occupational prestige, or both.{45} The explanations here are, once again, purely pragmatic; hunting is more an activity of rural people generally, and Southerners particularly, than of city dwellers; among urbanites, guns are most owned by the affluent because they are more likely to hunt -- and also to have the money to afford guns and property that they may feel the need to defend; most guns are owned for sport and males engage in gun sports more than females. As to Protestants, survey evidence shows them more likely to hunt than Catholics or Jews (Protestantism is most predominant in rural areas); and, beyond that, Protestants and gun owners both tend to be descended from older American stock, retaining cultural values redolent of the "individualistic orientation that emanated from the American frontier...."{46} In contrast, the penis theory has no explanatory value for these demographic trends. Are Protestants or the affluent or rural dwellers or Southerners more subject to feelings of penile inadequacy than Catholics or urbanites or the poor etc., etc.? In this connection it may be relevant to note that surveys show gun owners are no more hostile to feminism and the women's movement than are non-owners.{47}
    Tanay's arguments for the penis theory validate only his own (self-admitted) fear and loathing of guns. He asserts that "The owner's overvaluation of his gun's worth is an indication of its libidinal value to him." Because Tanay never attempts to explain what "overvaluation" means, there is nothing to distinguish guns from the "overvaluation" involved in having other collectibles. People who do not share the passion marvel at the amounts of time and money that others who "over-value" them expend on such more or less intrinsically worthless items as old phonograph records, musical instruments, cars, political campaign buttons, stamps, coins and candelabra.{48} Much the same problem inheres in Tanay's evidence of "narcissistic investment":
    Most of the dedicated gun owners handle the gun with obvious pleasure; they look after the gun, clean, polish and pamper it... speak of their love and respect for guns. So, of course, do most, if not all, collectors revere the objects they collect, cleaning and polishing them (if coins or antiques), encasing them (if coins or musical instruments) in velvet, suede or other attractive settings, etc. Are all collectors motivated by feelings of penile inadequacy? Or does Dr. Tanay's depiction of gun owners reflect only his own narrow-minded inability to evaluate the feelings of those who love and respect something he admittedly loathes? A final point of interest is Dr. Tanay's citation of Freud's view that weapons may symbolize the penis in dreams. This, Freud says, is true of dreams involving any long object (e.g. "sticks, umbrellas, poles, trees") but especially of objects that may be viewed as penetrating, and injuring ("knives, daggers, lances, sabers; firearms are similarly used...."). This passage refers to dreams in general without distinguishing gun owners from others. Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of -- in any event he does not cite -- other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual/emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons.{49} The probative importance that ought to attach to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership.

    2. Gun ownership as a cause of aggression --

    Obviously some gun owners are highly aggressive, indeed violent, else the U.S. would not suffer hundreds of thousands of gun crimes each year. The question is: are gun criminals properly considered representative of all gun owners, or are they a tiny aberrant minority best understood in the context of the larger aberrant minority of criminals who, with and without guns, commit millions of violent crimes in the U.S. each year? Based on the recent NIJ felon survey it appears that criminals who used guns in their crimes either sporadically or regularly are among the "hardest" of offenders. Per capita they had committed not only a larger number of violent crimes (often while armed with knives or weapons other than guns) than other offenders, but more crimes of all kinds.{50}
    Nevertheless the anti-gun "sagecraft" literature portrayed gun crime as more or less a necessary effect of gun ownership. In a series of articles Prof. Leonard Berkowitz asserted that guns arouse hostile and aggressive impulses in their owners. To prove this he conducted laboratory tests supposedly showing subjects' hostility levels rose particularly when others who annoyed them were associated with guns in various ways.{51} Evidence of this "weapons effect" is limited and erratic. Other psychologists have been unable to replicate Berkowitz's results; indeed, some found subjects less willing to express hostility against persons whom they associated with weapons.{52}
    More important is that, no matter what the results, the design of these experiments precluded Berkowitz's conclusion that a weapon increases its owners' hostility and aggressiveness. For none of his experiments involved a weapon being possessed by the subject, i.e., the person whose hostility was being tested. In Berkowitz's tests the weapon was associated only with the person against whom hostility would run. Thus Berkowitz was testing not gun owner hostility but hostility against persons his college student subjects associated with guns.{53} Buss, Brooker & Buss did test the hostility level of both owners and non-owners after actually firing guns, but could find "no evidence that the presence, firing or long-term use of guns enhances subsequent aggression."{54}

    3. Violent personality or attitude characteristics of gun owners

    Another attempt to demonstrate the iniquity of gun owners concluded that they are "violence prone" -- based on survey data in which what the subjects actually approved was not illegal violence but the use of force necessary to stop crime or aid its victims.{55} A more recent study offers a more neutral assessment based on three national surveys: gun owners differ from non-owners only in being more likely to approve "defensive" force, i.e. force directed against violent attackers. In contrast, those exhibiting "violent attitudes" (as defined by approval of violence against social deviants or dissenters) are no more likely to be gun owners than non-owners. Interestingly, the holders of violent attitudes were less likely than the average gun owner to approve of defensive force (perhaps perceiving it would be directed against violent people like themselves).{56}
    In addition to such directly relevant studies, there exists a substantial quantity of macrocosmic evidence against both the Berkowitz hypothesis that guns promote violent impulses and the alternative anti-gun hypothesis that gun ownership signifies a violent personality. If either hypothesis were true, it should follow that increased gun ownership would be highly correlative with violent crime, i.e. the more guns the more violence. Yet the consistent result of studies attempting to link gun ownership to violence rates is either no relationship or a negative one, i.e. that urban and other areas with higher gun ownership have less violence than demographically comparable areas with lower gun ownership.{57}

    4. Paranoia, sexism and racism --

    Anti-gun crusaders have traditionally derided gun ownership as a product of exaggerated, unrealistic public fears of crime.{58} Extreme, unrealistic fear of crimes may amount to mental illness and anti-gun crusaders do epithetically dismiss gun owners as paranoid and gun ownership as a "national paranoia".{59} Moreover, precautionary handgun ownership is commonly held to signify and promote irrational fears, intolerance and belligerence: "The mere possession of a gun is, in itself, an urge to kill, not only by design, but by accident, by madness, by fright, by bravado."{60}
    Yet gun owners do not seem to be more fearful of crime than other members of the general public. Rather, polls and attitude studies suggest that gun owners may actually be less afraid than non-owners.{61} This lesser fear may be explained by findings of a study of "Good Samaritans" who had arrested criminals or rescued their victims. In contrast to the less than 33% of Americans who then owned any kind of gun, almost two-and-one-half as many of the Samaritans (81%) "own guns and some carry them in their cars. They are familiar with violence, feel competent to handle it, and don't believe they will be hurt if they get involved."{62}
    So the charge of paranoia against gun owners seems not to be substantiated. What about the charges of intolerance, bigotry and belligerence? As to sexism, I have already noted that analysis of two national surveys shows gun owners no more hostile to feminism and the women's movement than are non-owners.{63} As to racism, the result of one local attitude study can be deemed to suggest that gun owners are likely to hold racist views.{64} But the asserted correlation between gun ownership and racism is not borne out by the several state and national studies of gun owner attitudes that have included questions designed to elicit racist views.{65} Analysis of another national poll reveals that, while liberals were less likely to own guns than the general populace, those liberals who own a gun were no less willing than other gun owners to use it if necessary to repel a burglar.{66}
    The NIJ Evaluation pithily summarizes the contrast between partisan sagecraft and actual social science: ... even in much of the scholarly literature[,] the "typical" private weapons owner is often depicted as a virtual psychopath -- unstable, violent, dangerous. The empirical research [we have] reviewed leads to a sharply different portrait... There is no evidence suggesting [gun owners] to be an especially unstable or violent or maladapted lot; their "personality profiles" are largely indistinct from those of the rest of the population. [p. 122]
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/guns/gun-control.html
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