A Discussion on the necessity of the Rebellion and portrayal of the Galactic Empire

[Subotan]

Oh nice! Sounds almost as complicated as Homestuck :p

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm not sure if they even had a standing army in the period between kotor and attack of the clones.

yes they did. There were as always, lots of wars that ended up being pointless.

[Greyblades]

Oh nice! Sounds almost as complicated as Homestuck :p

Well just dont get too attached to the point of view characters. Oh and for the love of god dont look up the tv tropes, personal experience here but if you see anything about an event called the red wedding press the back button, trust me it is worth not spoiling.

[lars573]

The thing that annoys me about Star Wars politics isn't the fact that it is totally absent, but that it sorta tries to be a kinda semi-political film, but it fails UTTERLY. For example, take the Separatists. What are their goals, other than to separate. Nobody knows. It's a complete mystery. Other than the fact that they kill Jedi, we have no idea that these are bad guys. This doesn't just fail from my political-nerd viewpoint, but it completely fails to produce any kind of emotion when we see the Confederacy getting battered (the fact that they're droids doesn't help). What kind of other film would we consider good when we do not care at all about whether who we are told are the bad guys triumphs or not?

The Separatists (public) goals is to make a new pan-galactic state that is free of the problems the Republic had by 33 BBY* Corruption in the galactic Senate mostly. And they're not all bad guys. The Clone Wars cartoon has about 7 episodes that deal with the political side of things. The social and economic upheavals that the clone war either caused or made worse. That some of the seperatists were snarling supervillians but others were good people fed-up with the Republic bull-crap. However the snarling supervillians are in on the gag that their really there to give Palpatine a bogey-man to give him the leverage to total control of the Republic's government.

Likewise, for Palpatine to mastermind his entire political ascendency and plan without ever once being suspected of treason is so ludicrously fantastical as to be far beyond the political abilities and cunning of Pericles, Cicero, Tokugawa, Gladstone, Bismarck, Stalin, FDR, De Gaulle, Nixon and Chirac COMBINED and IN SPACE. It is so annoying watching Palpatine rise up on his elevator of evil, whilst the stupidest and most obtuse "politicians" that have ever dared to be scripted on to the silver screen remain oblivious to his ascent. Even Yoda, allegedly the wisest Jedi evarrrr doesn't even guess a thing!

However all those politico's never had one VASTLY important advantage that Palpatine had. The Force. You know that thing that let's it's users see the future, read minds, control weaker minds, and throw lightning from your hands, and let a 65 yearold man wipe the floor with Samuel L. Jackson. Any question you could ask about how Palpatine could pull off making the entire galaxy his butt-monkey can be answered simply with, the Force. In otherwords, best McGuffin ever! Also the Sith were purposefully hiding themselfs from everyone.

As well as a whole host of other things, such as why didn't everyone in the universe freak out when Order 66 was implemented and how the hell did anyone let Jar Jar pass the Military Creation Act in replacement of Amidala, who had been leading the fight AGAINST the act.... Good god. Star Wars politics make me mad.

Because Palpatine was a smart dictator. He sold the massacre of Jedi as a just action for their rebellion against the Republic.





*Before the Battle of Yavin. The accepted way to recon time in the Star Wars universe is the destruction of the first Death Star in Episode IV became the new year zero.

[Subotan]

Well just dont get too attached to the point of view characters. Oh and for the love of god dont look up the tv tropes, personal experience here but if you see anything about an event called the red wedding press the back button, trust me it is worth not spoiling.

I'll keep it in mind; I have a lot of reading I want to get through first already, but It's on the list now :]

The Separatists (public) goals is to make a new pan-galactic state that is free of the problems the Republic had by 33 BBY* Corruption in the galactic Senate mostly. And they're not all bad guys. The Clone Wars cartoon has about 7 episodes that deal with the political side of things. The social and economic upheavals that the clone war either caused or made worse. That some of the seperatists were snarling supervillians but others were good people fed-up with the Republic bull-crap. However the snarling supervillians are in on the gag that their really there to give Palpatine a bogey-man to give him the leverage to total control of the Republic's government.

That never ever comes across in the films though, which is my point - sure the Expanded Universe has all these explanations, but if they want to justify stuff like this, it really should be in the film.

However all those politico's never had one VASTLY important advantage that Palpatine had. The Force. You know that thing that let's it's users see the future, read minds, control weaker minds, and throw lightning from your hands, and let a 65 yearold man wipe the floor with Samuel L. Jackson. Any question you could ask about how Palpatine could pull off making the entire galaxy his butt-monkey can be answered simply with, the Force. In otherwords, best McGuffin ever! Also the Sith were purposefully hiding themselfs from everyone.

Feels more like an ***-pull to me. Even Yoda, Yoda, doesn't suspect a thing until the last minute!

Because Palpatine was a smart dictator. He sold the massacre of Jedi as a just action for their rebellion against the Republic.

So, Palpatine says the Jedi, who have been linked to the Republic for 25,000 years are now suddenly traitors to the Republic, and then he dissolves the Republic. That doesn't seem like the kind of explanation which would convince people.

[lars573]

That never ever comes across in the films though, which is my point - sure the Expanded Universe has all these explanations, but if they want to justify stuff like this, it really should be in the film.

The Clone Wars cartoon isn't expanded universe. EU is a catch all term for Star Wars licensed media that Lucas has nothing to do with. The current Clone Wars CG cartoon series is a Lucas product (he's the EP and creative guy). Thus not EU.

Feels more like an ***-pull to me. Even Yoda, Yoda, doesn't suspect a thing until the last minute!

They don't who the other Sith Lord is until the last minute. But they did know he was out there. Yoda knew of the rule of 2.

So, Palpatine says the Jedi, who have been linked to the Republic for 25,000 years are now suddenly traitors to the Republic, and then he dissolves the Republic. That doesn't seem like the kind of explanation which would convince people.

It's fairly well used trope in Star Wars that Jedi are distrusted by the general public.

[Subotan]

The Clone Wars cartoon isn't expanded universe. EU is a catch all term for Star Wars licensed media that Lucas has nothing to do with. The current Clone Wars CG cartoon series is a Lucas product (he's the EP and creative guy). Thus not EU.

Ah OK, sorry I made a terminology error.

They don't who the other Sith Lord is until the last minute. But they did know he was out there. Yoda knew of the rule of 2.

OK sure, but they still don't realise it's Palpatine for over ten years, despite him wandering around amongst them for that length of time. Some wise Jedi...

It's fairly well used trope in Star Wars that Jedi are distrusted by the general public.

Again, that never really comes across in the films...

[lars573]

Ah OK, sorry I made a terminology error.

It's not a hard one to make.

OK sure, but they still don't realise it's Palpatine for over ten years, despite him wandering around amongst them for that length of time. Some wise Jedi...

Jedi aren't like Highlander immortals, force users can't feel each other if their close enough to each other. Look at EP.1 Qui-Gon guessed that Darth Maul was a Sith based on his being "well trained in the Jedi arts." And Palpatine's Sith order was built on hiding their true nature from the galaxy at large.

Again, that never really comes across in the films...

Which I think is why Lucas is now moving into TV.

[Prussian to the Iron]

WOW!!!!!!!! As I finished typing my long and well written response i got signed out, and now all my stuff is gone. Damnit I'm not doing it again, but basically I said that

Wait, let's stop here for a second. Before the Clone Wars, the Republic supposedly had no standing army. It was with the Clone Wars that Palpatine came to power, and it was with the Clone Wars that the military build-up of the Republic/Empire truly began. There's nothing quite wrong with relying on a huge Clone Army. Did the similarities in uniforms and equipment between the clone and imperials ever strike you as... odd? The clone troops were the roots of the imperial military forces.

in response to this, the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.

[Subotan]

Jedi aren't like Highlander immortals, force users can't feel each other if their close enough to each other. Look at EP.1 Qui-Gon guessed that Darth Maul was a Sith based on his being "well trained in the Jedi arts." And Palpatine's Sith order was built on hiding their true nature from the galaxy at large.

Still, it's a pretty inexcusable mistake for supposedly the wisest people in the galaxy to make.

Which I think is why Lucas is now moving into TV.

God help us all :O

in response to this, the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.

Never played Battlefront 2?

[lars573]

Still, it's a pretty inexcusable mistake for supposedly the wisest people in the galaxy to make.

In EP.3 they start to see that the dark side is around Palpatine.

God help us all :O

Well Clone Wars is mostly the product of the show runner producer Dave Feloni. He only makes the journey to the great Neckbeardus for final approval of his ideas.

Never played Battlefront 2?

Despite that games dubious play mechanics that single player story is really good.

[Megas Methuselah]

Again, that never really comes across in the films...

Actually, I can think of one minor incident that really struck a nerve for me. Remember in the second prequel film, Anakin and Obi kill that changer alien-woman in a bar after she tried killing Amidala in her sleep? It was right after they stabbed the hoe. People in the bar all were stunned and stared, but Anakin threatingly said, "This is Jedi business, go back to your drinks." The first thing that came to my mind was: holy shit, he sounds like an effin' cop. I would hate him, lol. Mind you, this is my personal experience with the scene; I'm sure this viewpoint would vary from person to person.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Never played Battlefront 2?

Yes, and if you're referring to the Kamino defense mission, that is based off an equal distribution of troops on each side. Realistically, if an enemy discovered the sole source of the Republic's war machine, you can bet that an enormous attack would be mounted on it.

[Greyblades]

Yeah but kamino is still the most important planet, save coriscant, the republic had at the time. The standing garrisson, not to mention the in-training clones forced onto the front line to defend thier home, would (or at least should, in these sorts of things it depends on the writer) be substantial enough to match all but the largest invasion forces.

[miotas]

Actually, I can think of one minor incident that really struck a nerve for me. Remember in the second prequel film, Anakin and Obi kill that changer alien-woman in a bar after she tried killing Amidala in her sleep? It was right after they stabbed the hoe. People in the bar all were stunned and stared, but Anakin threatingly said, "This is Jedi business, go back to your drinks." The first thing that came to my mind was: holy shit, he sounds like an effin' cop. I would hate him, lol. Mind you, this is my personal experience with the scene; I'm sure this viewpoint would vary from person to person.

This is the impression I got too, those bar patrons didn't seems too pleased to have a jedi there.

A few thoughts I had; If Palpatine knew about this outside threat and he truly had the best intrests of the galaxy at heart then why didn't he tell anyone rather than inciting a huge civil war, causing a massive loss of life and untold destruction, not to mention wiping out one of the galaxy's most elite fighting forces? Why can't they set up cloning opperations on other planets? And Palapatine kicked the of any jedi he fought so the jedi probably couldn't detect him because he is clearly stronger than any of them.

[lars573]

Yeah but kamino is still the most important planet, save coriscant, the republic had at the time. The standing garrisson, not to mention the in-training clones forced onto the front line to defend thier home, would (or at least should, in these sorts of things it depends on the writer) be substantial enough to match all but the largest invasion forces.

Clone Wars season 3 episode 2, "ARC troopers." The Separatists attempt to mount a raid on the Kamino cloning facilities. But the Jedi know it's coming and send an extra Legion (the 501st) to beef up the garrison.

[Greyblades]

If Palpatine knew about this outside threat and he truly had the best intrests of the galaxy at heart then why didn't he tell anyone rather than inciting a huge civil war, causing a massive loss of life and untold destruction, not to mention wiping out one of the galaxy's most elite fighting forces?

Well... it is kinda established that the republic senate is full of incomptent idiots, seeing as jar jar of all people managed to get the clones past them. Maybe palpatine just didnt trust anyone with that sort of info. As for the jedi he's a sith, just because he has priorities doesnt mean he wouldn't jump at the chance to off them.

Clone Wars season 3 episode 2, "ARC troopers." The Separatists attempt to mount a raid on the Kamino cloning facilities. But the Jedi know it's coming and send an extra Legion (the 501st) to beef up the garrison.

Wait they're on thier 3rd season?... I'll be right back.

[Megas Methuselah]

the Republic puts all its eggs in one basket with Kamino. The Empire has a standing army it can easily replenish with new recruits it can train and pay from all over. the Republic, if dealt a crippling blow at Kamino (aka planet destroyed/taken over by hostiles) would be completely destroyed by foreign invaders.

Oh yea, no doubt. But you kind of missed my point. The Imperial military forces were born out of the clone army. The clone army is the start of the imperial forces. You can almost say that they are one and the same, except for the fact that the imperial forces are an expanded version of the clone forces.

It's like you're comdemning a child for being weak. Well, yeah, that's fair enough. But that child is still growing.

[Prussian to the Iron]

Oh yea, no doubt. But you kind of missed my point. The Imperial military forces were born out of the clone army. The clone army is the start of the imperial forces. You can almost say that they are one and the same, except for the fact that the imperial forces are an expanded version of the clone forces.

It's like you're comdemning a child for being weak. Well, yeah, that's fair enough. But that child is still growing.

I disagree though. That realy isn't the point; the origins of Imperial weapons and armor can come from anywhere thats all well and fine, but the fact remains that a cloned force coming entirely from one planet (which is the only planet to do so, likely because they want to keep their monopoly on the Republics war efforts and not share their technology) is not going to be as smart as a force not only made up from all over the galaxy, but oen that can be easily replenished despite just about any event.

If Kamino was destroyed by a planet destroying weapon (which, for some reason, just about every single person had apparently according to the wiki), the Republic woulda been f*****. royally. If the Empire had 100 planets destroyed, they would still be going strong.

[Gregoshi]

If Kamino was destroyed by a planet destroying weapon (which, for some reason, just about every single person had apparently according to the wiki), the Republic woulda been f*****. royally. If the Empire had 100 planets destroyed, they would still be going strong.

The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few - or the one, eh? ...Wait, wrong movie franchise.

[Prussian to the Iron]

wait what?

[Subotan]

Of course, any mention of realism in Star Wars requires: http://www.theforce.net/swtc/holocaust.html