Results 1 to 30 of 109

Thread: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    While i was enjoying myself reading certain thread that is currently closed i stumbled upon a certain list which some of you might find interesting. In the thread i mentioned before a certain well known member of our small internet community expressed his concerns about how Europeans are basically helpless in face of any real threats. So i leaned back and thought what might be a good indicator for such complex issue of populations capability of waging war and even more important their willingness, which that certain member was so vehemently worried about. Well i decided to do a little search and i found a really nice indicator, if we generalize things to extremes:

    military personnel/ population ratio.

    So basically how many military personnel Country has compared to how many people they have. Then i stumbled into an interesting list,here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...mber_of_troops

    And what i see? When you look at certain larger North American country and find their place from the total of military personnel per 1000 people, strange thing happened. The country was on the 71st place when you look at how many people actually have military training out of 1000 people. Ultra militaristic European countries like: Finland 11th, Bulgaria 15th, Creece 20th, Switzerland 21st, Estonia 23rd, Portugal 24th, Sweden 25th, Austria 26th, Montenegro 33rd, Moldova 36th, Norway 40th, Denmark 41st, Spain 49th, Serbia 55th, Croatia 60th, Romania 62nd, Hungary 65th, Lithuania 67th and Italy at 70th place, have more military trained people compared to whole population then.....I am sure you already guessed? Yes: The United States of America. So should we now start worrying that the population of USA has lost their war like Nature and might be heading towards certain doom as their warrior spirit and willingness to serve their country has faded?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Naturally i am only joking as i dont think there is any such problem.I just wanted to give out some interesting statistics to have something to actually base any assumptions.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  2. #2
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    In my own skin.
    Posts
    13,208

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.



    The sinews of war are infinite money - Marcus Tullius Cicero


    The US used to be full of men who were ideal to the ways of war, and the only thing that could hold the US military back was a lack of funding or good military technology.
    The problem with the US military TODAY is not its' lack of funding or sophisticated weaponry, but the lack of good citizens, and therefore the lack of effective fighting men available to them. The rest of the world (most Western European countries, most Asian countries, most South American countries, and most Eastern European countries, and many African countries) has no shortage of able bodied and minded men who have been raised in a culture that produces good citizens and good soldiers.

    The sinews of war are not gold, but good soldiers - Niccolò Machiavelli


    It will be the countries who have both the good citizens/soldiers AND the economy to support large scale organized warfare that will shape the future of the world. Wealthy countries with no means of guarding their wealth will simply be juicy prizes for those countries who have BOTH the elements needed to be great. The US will simply be a fatted duck for Russia, China, India, the EU, etc to fight over.


    That is my take on the military situation of the US. The world always tends toward disorder, and the longer countries exist, the more corrupt they will become. The more corrupt countries are, the larger a chance for war. If history has shown one thing, it is that humans will ALWAYS go to war with each other. Everytime they devise a way to avoid war through alliances, economic control, etc, it either backfires, or simply delays war a little. Countries not willing to fight will be swallowed up or brought under the direct control of those who are. Depressing? Sure, but that is human nature, and that is why it is important for yourself and your fellow citizen to be vigilant participants in your society to prevent this from happening, AND to be willing to fight if a war does happen. I guess that my point is that most US citizens do not have that will to fight for their country, their family, and their society. They are not proud of themselves, where they came from, or their country. Why would they give their lives after all? Their entire lifestyle is contrary to what makes a good soldier AND citizen.

    Am I right? Am I being too harsh? Do I not have a good take on things? Have I just lost my mind? You tell me.

    Last edited by Andres; 02-01-2011 at 15:44.
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  3. #3
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    To be fair, I am one of those who bring Norway's ratio up to 40th place....

    And if Norway ever get invaded, my first course of action will be to order myself another drink on the Cuban beach hotel I fled to....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #4
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    In my own skin.
    Posts
    13,208

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    To be fair, I am one of those who bring Norway's ratio up to 40th place....

    And if Norway ever get invaded, my first course of action will be to order myself another drink on the Cuban beach hotel I fled to....
    Confirming the stereotype of the cowardly Eurowheenie, are we?

    Off to the Gulag camps with you

    After all, Europe is also communist
    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  5. #5
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andres View Post
    Confirming the stereotype of the cowardly Eurowheenie, are we?

    Off to the Gulag camps with you

    After all, Europe is also communist
    Bah! If my leadership is retarded enough to get invaded, they deserve the whip.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  6. #6
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Andres.My serious opinion is that this is all fuss about nothing. For example if you count together military forces of European Union the totals are:

    Active military personnel: 1,536,274
    Reserve force: 4,549,222
    Paramilitary: 798,800

    total: 6,884,296

    Just for reference USA

    Active military personnel: 1,445,000
    Total Reserve: 833,616

    total: 2,278,616

    So in matter of fact i think that EU countries have too many military personnel compared to what their task is.Surprising isnt it? Military is among things that European integration might benefit us all. By cutting off elements that are overlapping i am quite sure that EU area could have a military that could have serious long distance strike capabilities, while being more then able to defend our own area and i dont think we would need to even use more money then we are already using. To me scaring people with conventional attack of Russia is more then far fetched. Yes, they have over 1 million active soldiers and 20 million in reserve, but like you pointed out in your post. You need money to wage wars.With a GDP size of Spain, how prolonged conflict you think Russia can maintain with any large size mobilisation? China on the other hand is huge economical power already, but when you look at their military, you can see that they are not even considering starting an arms race with anyone as they dont simply have need for such thing.They rather get more rich, which sounds prettty reasonable.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  7. #7
    Liar and Trickster Senior Member Andres's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    In my own skin.
    Posts
    13,208

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy

    Ja mata, TosaInu

  8. #8
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Helsinki,Finland
    Posts
    9,595

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    And fine effort it was.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Senior Member Fisherking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    East of Augusta Vindelicorum
    Posts
    5,575

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Just somewhat on topic.

    If America deployed most of its 11,036 Paramilitary forces to a war zone, it might tend to make the US a safer place to live. Though I am sure it would have an escalating effect on civilian casualties where ever they employed them.


    Education: that which reveals to the wise,
    and conceals from the stupid,
    the vast limits of their knowledge.
    Mark Twain

  10. #10
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Forever adrift
    Posts
    5,955

    Default Re: Concerning the great worries about the self defence capabilities of Europeans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    Andres.My serious opinion is that this is all fuss about nothing. For example if you count together military forces of European Union the totals are:

    Active military personnel: 1,536,274
    Reserve force: 4,549,222
    Paramilitary: 798,800

    total: 6,884,296

    Just for reference USA

    Active military personnel: 1,445,000
    Total Reserve: 833,616

    total: 2,278,616

    So in matter of fact i think that EU countries have too many military personnel compared to what their task is.Surprising isnt it? Military is among things that European integration might benefit us all. By cutting off elements that are overlapping i am quite sure that EU area could have a military that could have serious long distance strike capabilities, while being more then able to defend our own area and i dont think we would need to even use more money then we are already using. To me scaring people with conventional attack of Russia is more then far fetched. Yes, they have over 1 million active soldiers and 20 million in reserve, but like you pointed out in your post. You need money to wage wars.With a GDP size of Spain, how prolonged conflict you think Russia can maintain with any large size mobilisation? China on the other hand is huge economical power already, but when you look at their military, you can see that they are not even considering starting an arms race with anyone as they dont simply have need for such thing.They rather get more rich, which sounds prettty reasonable.
    europe does not need to worry about russia's conventional capability, as i have said before; they are a busted flush.

    http://tachesdhuile.blogspot.com/201...d-we-care.html
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO