non-Macedonian style Phalanx - broken?

[fomalhaut]

The phalanx units in the style of Iphrikates, such as the Ifrikatous Hoplites, Heavy Hoplites, Alpine Phalanx and the Sacred Band seem to be pretty useless as units and completely worthless in their advertised purpose. am i using them wrong? is this a bug in my game?

My problem is; these shouldn't even be technically considered phalanx, because only the first row engages in combat. is there a way to fix this? is this how its supposed to be? because as is, when the enemy engages the first row switches to secondary weapons and essentially becomes a unit of swordsmen or axemen... which if i wanted a unit of swordsmen i would have recruited Alpine swordsmen or another more useful unit.

will removing their secondary weapons (if possible) make them use their spears and remain in a viable shield wall (its certainly not a spear wall)? because as is i don't see how these units have any sort of worth on the battlefield due to their poor stats and complete lack of any 'phalanx' traits such as being able to hold a line and have multiple rows attack at the same time.


It's the reason I have the Sacred Band for only symbolic purposes and not for any use on the battlefield.

[vollorix]

I don´t remember how those units were supposed to be used, but let´s face some facts...
Iphikratos Hoplitai are actually very usefull:
1. Spear/Sword combination, one of the very few native units the GCS got access to
- Peltastai are sword armed, but they lack the spear - fighting cavalry isn´t very effectiv
- Hoplitai Thorakitai - the greek reformed heavy hoplites are elite units, imo, lower on menpower, and bad stamina.
2. Personally, i´ve changed their stamina to "very hardy"; they allready get the "fast moving" attribute, but, imo, they really needed a little bumb in "health"
3. These units are not regionaly restricted, iirc, are quite cheat, and also available as mercs pretty much in the whole hellenistic world

Concerning other units:
Alpine Phalanx are very usefull against Romans ( excellent morale, good stamina, decent armour, "ap" sec. weapon; they are able to hold the line as much as the flanks - anti cavalry in perfection
Heavy Hoplites ( if you mean the same i´ve mentioned above ) are quite cool too, imo; though, i´ve tweaked my EDU too much, perhaps, so that i gave them the "ap" kopis.
Sacred Band...well, i´ve never bothered to use them ( some historical flare on the battlefileld aside ), but most hoplites used sword as their secondary weapon, and the only reason the classical ones ( + some others ) do not in game is because they would switch to it every time once engaged in melee.

So, you got your diversity, and different options. GCS actually get a very good infantry roster: for any purpose there is a unit, so to say.

Just my 2 cents, cheers ;)

[fomalhaut]

but you are talking about their purposes that are totally different than that of a phalanx. compared to Hoplite Phalanx they are worthless, a hoplite phalanx can push and use its 'many as one' mentality that is reflected in its gameplay use to annihilate a these style of phalanx. and on defense they are almost impregnable from many angles.

a real phalanx, or even German Pikemen are impenetrable from the front and can attack many enemies at once and are so much more useful than these in their stated purpose that it is a joke.

I don't want swordsmen or axemen, i want a unit who uses long spears to tie up and damage an enemy with minimal losses to my own when attacked from the front. however these units are worthless in this regard due to their immediate switching to secondary weapons and the fact that only the first line engages in combat

what are EB team members going to do about these units in EBII? Again, i don't see their purpose as being cute swordsmen with Phalanx in their name, i want a god dang phalanx. Iphrikates didn't reform Hoplites to combat Macedonian Phalanx only for them to be swordsmen, he meant them to be a mobile Phalanx with shorter spears. but as represented in game they are totally worthless except as swordsmen... but Macedonian Phalanx and Romans are already swordsmen too... and better swordsmen at that.

they don't have a use on the battlefield, i just don't see it. and i think that is a shame because some cool ass units use this animation/skeleton or whatever. The Helvetii are so freaking cool looking. Is there an easy way to animate/change them in a manner of German Pikemen? German Pikemen clearly have shorter spears than Macedonians, but long enough to engage multiple rows at the same time and tie up an enemy. I don't know the specifics but when the Iphriaktous Hoplite is explained to me in text it seems more like the German Pikemen (though with shorter tips) than big shield wearing swordsmen

Exhibit A) - notice first row engages only, and with swords. Also notice in background the veteran Massilian Hoplites who by far are more useful but it's cheap to have a wall of them. They only use spears due to EDU tweaks

[gamegeek2]

Play on BI.exe where you have shieldwall and these units can function LIKE a phalanx.

[fomalhaut]

i am using ALEX for stability and speed.

is this the only way to make them useful?

[A_Dane]

By "Sacred band" do you mean distinguished hoplites?

[Nerva]

He means the carthaginian sacred band I think, the one with the green shields and axes... I don't know... maybe you are accidentally pushing alt while attacking... if not maybe it's better to take the secondary weapon in the EDU. I'm almost sure the M2TW engine handles better secondary weapons so maybe there will be not problems with EB2.

[fomalhaut]

woah you guys really don't know what the Sacred Band of Baal is?! (not the Sacred Band of Thebes). It's the all silver unit that, not the green shielded one.

hahaha i am accidentally pressing alt every single time? not likely. still, i wonder in EB2 if these phalanxes will have only the first row or have it function as a phalanx?

[A_Dane]

I know the Scared band of Baal, but the way you described things and the way vollorix replied i was under the impression, that you were talking about a greek unit, got me somewhat confused :p

[Cute Wolf]

1) if they are used offensively, sure, they'll switch to swords
2) to use them properly, without using BI.exe, you need to put them on continous line, with guard mode on, and use them rather defensively to contain enemy charges.
3) since their primary weapon is spear, they can contain frontal charges, and then continue with swords as better close combat weapon vs infantry

[strategos roma]

The phalanx units in the style of Iphrikates, such as the Ifrikatous Hoplites, Heavy Hoplites, Alpine Phalanx and the Sacred Band seem to be pretty useless as units and completely worthless in their advertised purpose. am i using them wrong? is this a bug in my game?

My problem is; these shouldn't even be technically considered phalanx, because only the first row engages in combat. is there a way to fix this? is this how its supposed to be? because as is, when the enemy engages the first row switches to secondary weapons and essentially becomes a unit of swordsmen or axemen... which if i wanted a unit of swordsmen i would have recruited Alpine swordsmen or another more useful unit.

will removing their secondary weapons (if possible) make them use their spears and remain in a viable shield wall (its certainly not a spear wall)? because as is i don't see how these units have any sort of worth on the battlefield due to their poor stats and complete lack of any 'phalanx' traits such as being able to hold a line and have multiple rows attack at the same time.


It's the reason I have the Sacred Band for only symbolic purposes and not for any use on the battlefield.

Do you mean the Greek bodyguards, the Epilektoi when you talk about the Heavy Hoplites? Because IIRC they don't have swords at all and just act like normal hoplites. The Iphikratou and Alpine phalanx are a bit problematic and I've noticed the same problem more than once so I don't use them a lot although the latter is actually a great unit. In my campaigns, the Sacred Band acts pretty normally but then I've only used them a few times. Actually, the best way to solve this rather annoying problem is by putting them in a line, leave guard mode on and wait for the enemy to attack you. Don't advance to meet them and I find that sometimes they do behave normally.

[fomalhaut]

im talking only the non hoplite phalanx, so no epilektoi hoplitai.

mostly my issue is that only the first rows engage, and there is no viable shield or spear wall, even guard mode turned on a unit will pass through. run a horseman toward a pike phalanx? dead. toward a hoplite phalanx? dead. through an Iphrikatous phalanx? just fine

[Sylon]

To get a unit to switch back to its primary weapon, select the unit and right click (as opposed to Alt+right click) on whatever you wish to attack. For example, if you have a unit of Iphikratous Hoplites engaged with a unit of cavalry and they happen to be using swords, simply select them and right click on the cavalry unit they are already engaged with. This will cause them to swap back to their spears.

[SFraser]

It's a frustrating issue but can be resolved with a bit of attention.

The problem is that when an individual soldier is knocked down he will switch back to his primary weapon, so if his primary is a sword then you can end up with a front using swords and the rest of the unit thinking it is using spears.

Clicking ALT to use secondary weapons wont work because the unit is already using secondary weapons, so they wont change. So attack them with primary weapons and then use ALT to attack with secondary weapons.

Lots of units that come with sword/spear combinations and different formation densities, and particularly different enemy types, suffer from this at first glance abject uselessness. However it's just a case of making sure you use the right tool for the job and you are aware of the fact that your unit will switch weapons as soldiers are knocked down.

Once you get the hang of it they work fine, albeit are a bit more micro management intense than is ideal.

[vollorix]

@SFraser: maybe i´m kind of blind, i can see all the units with sword/spear combination switching to their secondary and not primary weapon when beeing knocked down ( they fight with spears instead of swords in melee ). There are also some other problems i´ve noticed:
1. you can force those units to switch back to swords for a while ( using the trick you described above, or puting them in guard mod for a second, then releasing them ), but after a while they do not react any more; once a unit is heavily depleted and exausted, the soldiers won´t fight with swords, but with spears only...
2. the entire unit, except from the front line, is using swords, but all the soldiers in the first rank are using spears, since they have been knocked down during the fight, while the others weren´t.

The only solution that comes to my mind is to give those units ( which are mostly elite anyway ), a rediculous high defence skill to make it very hard to get knocked down; right now i´m experimenting with EDU changing their recruitment time up to 4 turns - that way the AI won´t mass crank them, i hope.

EDIT: could one attach a different sceleton to all the units using the sword/spear combination, for example that of druids/cardinau orca, but keep their appearance on the battlefield? And if yes, is it enough to do the changes in the EDU + dmb?

[Rahl]

EDIT: could one attach a different sceleton to all the units using the sword/spear combination, for example that of druids/cardinau orca, but keep their appearance on the battlefield? And if yes, is it enough to do the changes in the EDU + dmb?

No. I once tested this. Skins don't have the same order for every unit model. They're usually very different, some are far more detailed with higher resolution for example. You would need to change the model itself.

[bobbin]

Secondary weapons are bugged in RTW (and M2TW), there is nothing you can do about it short of removing the weapon from the unit.

[vollorix]

But i thought denying the sec. weapon in the EDU might cause problems? If that´s possible, though, i would gladly keep the swords for those elites while erasing the spear entry in the EDU...

[fomalhaut]

still doesn't change the fact that the spear wall only engages one row at a time.

[Arkeolog4]

About this, do you guys think it would be better to open descr_unit and add long_pike or short_pike and a phalanx ability to Mori Gaesum, Appea Gaedotos etc? I mean, wouldn't it solve this problem? Please, I think this is pretty important. Thanks in advance!

[Aper]

I think EB team did a mistake removing "phalanx" formation from Iphikratous Hoplitai and their kin: AFAIK they weren't supposed to be fast or agile, but to be effective and relatively cheap line-holders, thanks to their unusually long spears (still shorter than sarissa, though).

So, being the "phalanx" formation (WITHOUT "long_pike" attribute, or they'll get sarissa) the only way to have a solid wall of spears engaging more than one row at time, and nimbleness not being required for their tactical role, I think they should get back their old formation; this would provide a use for their pathetic shortswords, too.

EDIT: or we can try "short_pike" attribute without "phalanx" formation maybe.

[fomalhaut]

me and old iphrikates let me tell you, when we were discussing our revolution in hellenic warfare we meant for more than one row engaged at a time, that's for sure!

any EB or unofficial EB guys want to answer the previous questions? they are important to me as well, adding those traits may work?

[Aper]

I don't understand exactly what people mean in their replies, because of (our) poor english... and people posting incorrect information because they are too lazy to verify what they think to know before writing, so let's try to clear things up...

1) The ONLY way to have more than one row at time engaging the enemy is the "phalanx" formation: with that, if you give to the weapon just the "spear" or "light_spear" attribute, you'll have 3 rows fighting at the same time (an Iphikratous phalanx), if you give "long_pike" attribute too, 5 rows will fight together (and you'll have a sarissa phalanx). "short_pike" is utterly useless, I can explain why if requested.

2) longsword/spear & spear/shortsword combos are widely known to be buggy... and useless: longsword/spear works wonder... to frustrate you: making a unit that receive charges with swords and fights in melee with spears accomplish what? That the unit get slaughtered by cavalry charges and switches to low lethality spears when it's time to do the real kill... 'nuff said.
Spear/shortsword also has no sense in vanilla: why the heck you should switch to a secondary weapon that has lower attack, same lethality and weaker vs. cavalry?? Why don't just give to this units the spear only, like classical hoplites??
FIXES:
- for longsword/spears, get rid of the useless spear: it won't protect you from charges, and when you have high attack, high lethality sword, you don't need a spear to kill horses in melee. Also is tested and don't give any problem.
- for spear/shortsword, give "phalanx" to the thureos-armed (shield value: 3), widening to 1.1 their first value in the "formation" line to avoid clipping; remove the secondary weapon to the aspis-armed (shield value: 4), because they are armed like hoplites and should fight like EB hoplites, with spears only.
- for hoplites, add to them a value between 0.25 and 0.35 (the lower, the better) after the "mass" value (it's the last number) in the "soldier" line: this will make them fight more cohesively and spread less, a bit like guard mode, but without the downsides.

3) don't use BI, keep with ALEX: the AI is better, and BTW shield_wall is... silly and ludicrous, packing people so tightly they couldn't even breath, and providing hidden unbalancing boosts to stats (like "warcry" and "berserk" do). And you don't need to press a button and get unreasonable boosts to have an effective shieldwall: read the excellent "Guard Mode: a guide to formation fighting" from SFraser (the spaghetti monster bless you!)... it's just amazing!

Well, the rant is finished for now :)

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

I use the BI engine, but without using shieldwall. That's a good balance between slightly better AI and stability over RTW, but without the retraining of ALEX and the gamey shieldwall function.

[Kival]

Spear/shortsword also has no sense in vanilla: why the heck you should switch to a secondary weapon that has lower attack, same lethality and weaker vs. cavalry??

There are some additional things to consider: Animation (speed) and the defense penalty for light spear for example.

[Aper]

There are some additional things to consider: Animation (speed) and the defense penalty for light spear for example.

You are right, but animation speed impact on performance is not easy to quantify, and nobody really knows anything sure about "spear" and "light_spear" boni and mali, AFAIK... Anyway, I thought the somewhat poor performance of shortswords was a common complain among players, that's the reason why in MP semi-official EDU they have been strenghtened.