How to adequately use troops

[Aenas]

Ok i'm now playing EB for some time, i've read some guides regarding troops but i still can't figure out totally the difference between different melee weapons. Yes i know weapons like axes have ap (whatever that stands for) which is good against armor, but what about the other weapons? Clubs? Swords? And especially spears. What are they good for? How should you not use them?

Why i am asking this? I'm playing a game right now with Koinon Hellenon VH/VH and my, until then dominating armies mainly consisting of good spearmen, awesome kretan archers and usually 2 cavalry units, are now getting butchered by the getai troops. I can't find any weakness in them. My archers are just able to take down some of their low armored troops, but their heavy armored and heavy equipped troops are so much better than mine.

Another thing is, how would position your troops before the first confrontation in a battle? My armies usually consist of elite troops, decent troops and some cheaper but faster troops for the flanks. I usually put my heavy armored slow heavy phalanx in the front with guard modus to absorb the power of the first seconds of the battle, so less armored troops are not immediately killed. Then i usually move the rest of my troops, plus cavalry to his flanks or behind the enemy and crush him. Usually succeeding. Are there any other ways? Especially different ideas how to use your troops? I have to add that i don't have to fear too much missile atacks due to my archers and since i'm greek i don't have a lot of good charging troops, thats why i usually let him charge.
I also use guard modus before the first encounter. In my experience it's kind of prolonging the fight, i take less casualties, but also of course give less casualties. So very useful to outmaneuver the enemy. Is this right?

I'm thankful for any answears :)

[Gugus]

.... My archers are just able to take down some of their low armored troops, but their heavy armored and heavy equipped troops are so much better than mine.....

Employ slingers, Rhodians preferably and fire into their backs or their rigth side.

[d'Arthez]

Since you are playing on VH battle difficulty, AI controlled stacks get +7 combat bonuses, which will make common strategies to deal with them a lot less effective. Do not be surprised if your elites can barely hold a line against levies.

Slingers are vital. They have AP (Armor Piercing) attacks unlike archers. This really helps with highly armored opponents.

You should also be aware that most Getai troops have AP attacks. As a consequence your highly armored phalanxes become tins in can, so to speak, if you are not carefully protecting them.

[Titus Marcellus Scato]

If you play VH Battle difficulty, you should expect to get butchered. VH battle difficulty gives the AI units +7 to Morale, Attack and Defence, making their elite units nigh-invincible monsters.

From: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ficulty-Levels

Re: Difference Between Difficulty Levels:

Campaign :
Medium : good for very slow players that like periods of peace now and then.
Hard : reasonable AI aggression, everyone'll want to wage war against you, but still quite fun.
Very Hard : Kamikaze AI. They just throw everything at you.

Factions will expand a little bit faster at higher difficulty AFAIK, but killing you if you border them is their priority.

Battle:
Medium : recommended, good balance. Requires the human player not to use full stacks, not to retrain, and to use no more than 1/4 elites per army.
Hard: +4 Morale, +4Attack and/or Defence, can't remember exactly. Ruins the balance work of the EB team. But you can use fullstacks, elites,... a bit unrealistic, but many people like it.
Very Hard: +7 bonusses! Prepare to see your elites slaughtered by Akontistai in melee. You need to constantly take advantage of AI's stupidity and blitz before faction start to throw elites at you.

I prefer M/M or H/M (I'm a slow expander).
VH/M or H/H for a challenge.
VH/H or VH/VH if you want to blitz.

Disclaimer : AI is't any less braindead on VH than it is on E. So don't expect any improvement there.

So VH level in EB is like Nightmare level in Doom. To paraphrase the old classic: "Are you sure? This skill level isn't even remotely fair."

[LusitanianWolf]

Why i am asking this? I'm playing a game right now with Koinon Hellenon VH/VH and my, until then dominating armies mainly consisting of good spearmen, awesome kretan archers and usually 2 cavalry units, are now getting butchered by the getai troops. I can't find any weakness in them. My archers are just able to take down some of their low armored troops, but their heavy armored and heavy equipped troops are so much better than mine.

Nope, they arent, is just that EB in VH battles is terribly unbalanced stat wise. There are some ppl who still do it but it requires a lot of micromanagement and in my humble opinion ruins the game (I like my battles to be chaotic and realistic). I've allways played in VH in vanilla or other mods but in EB I keep it at medium.

Anyway, what I suggest is that you pin the heavy troops and take care of the rest before coming back to finish them, a mass routing around them will drop their morale. Shooting stones in the back as it was said by Gugus is also a good idea. javelins usualy work very well too. And get their general. ASAP! But again, I dont play VH and havent played with KH for a long time.

Ok i'm now playing EB for some time, i've read some guides regarding troops but i still can't figure out totally the difference between different melee weapons. Yes i know weapons like axes have ap (whatever that stands for) which is good against armor, but what about the other weapons? Clubs? Swords? And especially spears. What are they good for? How should you not use them?

AP = Armour piercing, ignores half of enemy armour
Letallity = chances to inflict a letal wound when hits the enemy (in vanilla was 1, in EB is more like 0.1 or 0.225).

Clubs and axes: AP but medium letality, outnumber or flank enemy heavy troops with masses of cheap clubmen or axemen and they'll be finished.

Spears : Line troops, the mainstay of most armies. While most of the times not the best assault units they are usualy very versatile and can be used either as main line, flank guards (they eat cavalry for breakfast) and even as flankers (specialy if they trow javelins before charge).

Long Swords Hight letality. They slay your enemy fast so use them to break the enemy line. If they have large shields and/or armour they can also be good line troops.

Short Swords While some of them arent that special being just a nerfed version of the longsword ones, there are many that have AP being able to take easly more armoured foes and being excelent assault troops (ex: iberians, samnites). And others, while not having AP have very dense formations and good shields being good line troops and very versatile (ex romans).

Skirmishers: Multi task. Use them to distract the enemy, throw javelins at their back while theire engaged in battle, support other troops, and as arrow fooder. Most have to be carefull of cavalry but some have spears and can even make some light horsemen eat dust. The ones with dense formation and large shields or armour can also make decent line troops (ex: germans ones, indo-iranians, peltastai).....
Two Handed weapons Weapons of mass destruction or suicidal bombers. Keep them safe from missiles (as they will die like flies) and then quikly put them in the battle line, specialy in the flanks or rear.
etc, etc...
I could also talk about cavalry, chariots or elephants but I dont have all day and if you look around there are topics in the subject. And since you play on VH none of this matters because your elites are going to be eaten by outnumbered levy skirmishers in melee :P

What I also take very in attention is the size of the shields and formations:
Large Shield and dense formation: Main line
Small Shield or disperse formation: flankers and reserves

[athanaric]

Clubs and axes: AP and medium lethality, outnumber or flank enemy heavy troops with masses of cheap clubmen or axemen and they'll be finished.

Fixed. Axes and maces have 0.165, which is decent but not spectacular. Clubs have 0.14, which is still better than any short sword as well as most spears.

Short Swords While some of them arent that special being just a nerfed version of the longsword ones, there are many that have AP and less lethality than clubs or axes being able to take easly more armoured foes and being excelent assault troops (ex: iberians, samnites).

Fixed. AP "shortswords" always have 0.11 lethality, which is acceptable but below average (spears have 0.13, usually).

[LusitanianWolf]

Fixed.

Ups, you're right, I've corrected the original post. That explains why some short swordsman suck so much

[Saldunz]

What troops exactly are the Getai throwing at you that's giving you so much trouble?

I'm playing as the Koinon Hellenon as well on VH/VH, and since you must've dealt with the Macedonian faction by now, the Getai really shouldn't be frustrating you much. I can tell you from my own experiences that you're doing things right. One thing I've noticed about VH battle difficulty is that the AI's morale does not seem to get a bonus. A lot of people say it does, but even if that is the case, it is still very easy to get the enemy to rout - especially if their FM has been killed (if they even field one).

It would help if I knew what units you were fighting, but outmaneuvering the AI is the key to every battle in VH. As much as possible, let the enemy come to you and take the high ground. Kill off whatever you can with your archers and slingers. Let them exhaust themselves trying to get to you, and keep your front line on defense mode. That way they'll exhaust themselves faster, become less efficient, and your front line will take fewer losses. Swing whatever auxiliaries you have around and make them come charging in. That should get them to rout, or close enough to it.

But whatever strategy you used on Macedonia should work just as well on the Getai.

[Aenas]

What troops exactly are the Getai throwing at you that's giving you so much trouble?

I'm playing as the Koinon Hellenon as well on VH/VH, and since you must've dealt with the Macedonian faction by now, the Getai really shouldn't be frustrating you much. I can tell you from my own experiences that you're doing things right. One thing I've noticed about VH battle difficulty is that the AI's morale does not seem to get a bonus. A lot of people say it does, but even if that is the case, it is still very easy to get the enemy to rout - especially if their FM has been killed (if they even field one).

It would help if I knew what units you were fighting, but outmaneuvering the AI is the key to every battle in VH. As much as possible, let the enemy come to you and take the high ground. Kill off whatever you can with your archers and slingers. Let them exhaust themselves trying to get to you, and keep your front line on defense mode. That way they'll exhaust themselves faster, become less efficient, and your front line will take fewer losses. Swing whatever auxiliaries you have around and make them come charging in. That should get them to rout, or close enough to it.

But whatever strategy you used on Macedonia should work just as well on the Getai.

What army constellations are you using?
I don't mean that i'm not winning against the getai. Driving off the other greeks is my economy strong enough to beat up every enemy at that point of the game. But its just not fun getting your troops literally butchered all the time.
It was just way easier against the makedon. And always fighting in a defensive battle with the advantage of a higher position is no fun either.

I'm playing now with Pontus VH/H and its way more fun. I can actually use variant troop types and a lot more strategies, besides using the AI's stupidity.

[Saldunz]

What army constellations are you using?

Prepare to be underwhelmed. My "typical" army right now consists of...
6 sphendonetai,
7 hoplitai haploi or ekdromoi hoplitai,
6 akontistai or hippakontistai or hippakontistai asiatikoi
and 1 FM.

There will usually be one or two mercenary units replacing the usual 6/7/6. Think of the above as a base. I really make my army of whatever I can get my hands on, and preferably make the armies from the most populated cities.

Anyway, if you want to attack the enemy on VH/VH, be prepared for some pain. Playing on that difficulty level usually means you have to outwit the AI with every advantage you have available.