TWS2 RPG Discussion Thread

[Zim]

TWS2 has been out for a while now and I've been wondering if it would be suited for an rpg. ETW never generated much interest (although we did discuss it).

TWS2 does have some points in its favor.
-It's a setting that's both very far away from previous rpgs but one which many people have an interest in.
-Being able to build your own generals (and agents) would be great for rp purposes.
-One of the most immersive TW games since the original
-A difficult AI that would pose a legitimate challenge on the campaign map(especially if we went high with the difficulty)
-Credible mid-late game challenge in the Realm Divide, something that's been created artificially in other rpgs
-Smaller setting with clear goals (and some nice side goals, like capturing the black ship)
-Issues like religious conversion and dealing with Nanban ports add to IC conflicts

Some obstacles, most of which have turned out not to obstacles at all:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-Smaller setting with clearer goals. Less of a sandbox with only the islands of Japan to fight over, less diversity of opponents.
-Takes a while to get to a size that would give a decent number of general avatars (although with the skill trees for agents they might do well as characters)
-DLC. If I have the Ikki pack and someone else has the new one that adds units, are our saves incompatible with eachother and with someone with neither? This is an issue for standard succession games as well. Save games are compatible.
-Most of us here in the Throne Room seem to play mostly games from the RTW/MTW2 era, in the latter case partly because it's the only one to work for hotseats. How many of us own TWS2? Quite a few, it seems

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'd definitely be in, for one. TWS2 vanilla, no DLCs if that matters, but I don't believe it does (don't quote me on that).

[Zim]

I was worried the DLC might make a difference as far as savegame compatibility. We could test it if there's someone around who has some dlc content.

I've been avoiding getting any for fear of messing up mod versus mod so that's three of us with vanilla TWS2 at least (assuming Phonics were interested).

[phonicsmonkey]

I'm in! I don't have any DLCs..

[Cecil XIX]

The reason Empire and Napoleon have no presence here has a lot to due with their poor reception, I'd imagine. I don't think a game using Shogun 2 would have that problem.

The biggest problem is that Shogun 2 gives you the fewest generals of any TW game to date. I think allowing characters to roleplay as agents is essential in this regard. My experience is that agents don't die as often either, which is helpful. Another thing we should consider is allowing players without avatars to fight battles as Captains, or whatever they're called. I don't know if their names change as constantly as they did in RTW/M2TW, but if they did it would probably be best to see who's interested in playing a Captain, then choosing randomly since they'd be no IC info to base the decision off of. Alternatively, if people were roleplaying characters that didn't exist in game, we could send them to the captain as a sort of military liaison to justify having them play the battle.

There's a benefit that's almost as big though: The game let's you choose the heir! This gives the succession disputes the chance to be deadly serious, which would be a lot of fun! Another thing to consider it is giving the four commissioners powers in the rules, and allowing the Daimyo to appoint commissioners even if there aren't enough generals in the game. The bonus the commissioners give suggest their powers:

• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction

We have to fine tune the balance of power between them and the Daimyo, but I think it could really pay off.

Anyway, I'd certainly jump into a Shogun 2 RPG as soon as it was announced.

[Zim]

I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once ).

Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?

[phonicsmonkey]

I hadn't even thought of that (Phonics and my generals die so often in Mod vs Mod I'm guessing neither of us has gotten to use all of the titles at once ).

Who would determine how to divide koku between military and construction purposes? Maybe the Daimyo?

Or the chief metsuke?

[Nigel]

Or the Commissioner of Warfare and the Commisioner of Development will have to present their budget wishes and argue their cases. Then the Daimyo makes the decision. Or there could then be a vote between Chief Metsuke / Commisioner for Finance / Daimyo on who gets his wish and who gets what is left over.

In any case this sounds very interesting. Count me in.
I have S2TW, vanilla version without any DLC so far.

[Zim]

It's heartening to see that there's a lot of interest in a TWS2 RPG. I changed the thread title to reflect a change in subject from whether the new game would work for an RPG to how we're going to make it work.

If everyone is willing I would gladly work on a ruleset and gm a TWS2 rpg.

I like Cecil's idea to include the game's commissioner titles in the RPG and thoughts on their abilities (and suggestion that non generals should be able to get the titles). I'd like to share an idea about their implementation, particularly who has final say on money spent.

• Commissioner for Warfare - Recruits military units
• Commissioner for Supply - Directs reinforcements
• Commissioner for Finance - Determines tax rates and exemptions
• Commissioner for Develop - Approves all construction

So we have the Finance Commissioner who controls the available pool of money by controlling taxes and the Commissioners of Warfare and Development who between them control recruitment and construction. I'm wondering if the Commissioner of Supply might, in addition to moving troops around to join stacks, might be the guy who decides what exactly is built and ends the turn. The Commissioners of Warfare and Development give lists to him. The Supply Commissioner chooses which parts of the lists to fulfill (and can prioritize the lists or just not build anything) or can choose not to spend the money but can't recruit or build outside the lists. He also moves unled armies and ends the turn. Maybe the Daimyo can give a separate list for his capital city that must be fulfilled before the others.

So the balance is that the Finance guy controls the flow of money by picking tax rates, the Warfare and Development Commissioners control what can be built, and the Development guy controls what does get built with the resources and lists the other Commissioners give him.

This makes these four guys pretty powerful, which begs the question of how to handle their appointment. In-game you can appoint them and strip them of the title as often as you want. Do we want to limit this ability the Daimyo would have? Only let him name a new one every ten turns, or make 1 or more a position that's voted for?

Another subject Phonics was talking to me about was agents. He had the idea of making the first of each type of agent the Head ____ (ninja, etc.). I like this idea, especially as many players are likely to be agents but we'll need to think about what powers these titles should have if we're using them.

On a more general subject is how to structure the game. Previous rpgs here used MTW2 or RTW as their base (often with a mod). TWS2 is such a different game that even if we made a conscious decision to use the older games as a guide a lot of things are likely to end up very different by the time we modify them to fit TWS2. An example is the strong likelihood of more agent than general characters. In other RPG here there is generally a royal family that may be stronger or weaker, at least one strong elected role (Many times combining powers we're discussing giving the Comissioners, sometimes minus one or two), and a lot of general characters with some type of geographically based power (Duchies, Houses, etc.).

To me a TWS2 game seems likely to be somewhat more centralized, and few titles being geographically based. I'd like to see voting continue (with players being advisors to the Daimyo whose power derives from influence with the samurai that keep things running), with influence bonuses for certain titles or the ranks all generals and agents have that seem ready made for this type of thing. Also we'll need a lot of focus on incorporating agent characters. Generals can fight battles, marry into the Daimyo's family, become heir. Captains can fight battles and aspire to getting a generalship offer after a battle. What makes me want to play the faction's third ninja? Eligibility for Commissioner positions and the extra character given in this game through choosing ancillaries and abilities as you advance help, but I wonder if more is needed.

[phonicsmonkey]

To expand a little on my agents idea.

I would say the first of each type of agent would be Head. Until that one dies and is replaced by the next highest level agent, with order of recruitment being the tie breaker.

The Head Ninja (call him Shinobi?) could report directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).

The Head Metsuke could report to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They would then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.

I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).

Maybe only the Heads of each agency get to be in the running for Commissions? Or maybe they can only be eligible for certain Commissions? Like Ninja = warfare and supply, Metsuke = finance, development and supply and Monk = warfare and finance?

Just a few ill-formed ideas. Agents have the potential to be extremely valuable to the faction. A high-level ninja is worth a few armies. So it gives an incentive for people to court the favour of the Head Ninja so he can (in the absense of over-riding orders from the Daimyo) clear the way for their armies and generally help them out - you pat my back etc.

I like the idea of Commissioners being elected but with an influence-based vote so the Daimyo effectively dominates unless everyone else is against him.

[Zim]

Interesting. Would that makes things tough on the subordinate ninja/Metsuke, etc though? They wouldn't have much freedom.

[phonicsmonkey]

I guess - except in the absence of orders. perhaps they could disobey? problem is there's no sanction for that is there? you can't disband or kill one of your own agents can you?

having said all that, isn't it a bit like the lot of a low-ranking FM? they can't raise troops, wage war or do anything really without their liege

[Zim]

True, although with so few fms most will probably have an army at least. The Metsuke one worries me a little more, since they wouldn't even be able to move around freely.

Maybe the orders can have a time limit. They get issued at the beginning of each term and just have to be completed before it ends.

[phonicsmonkey]

Maybe the metsuke could get to choose which path they take when the faction is at war? ie. be a stay-at-home metsuke or go out on the road with the troops

that would allow them to choose their own fate a little better

plus what I didn't say above is that all agents would be allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs

[Zim]

plus what I didn't say above is that all agents would be allowed to choose their own traits and ancillaries when they level up, meaning they will mould their characters just like the FMs

That's one of my favorite things about the game for an RPG. Being able to choose character traits and abilities is great, especially for the agents.

[Nigel]

I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).

I had an additional thoughts about Monks.
Maybe the Head Monk = "Abbot of XYZ Temple" (wherever he was recruited) will get control over all monk troops.
So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.


Another thought is: are we really going to have enough players to have the third ninja or fourth metsuke?
Maybe we will only have the Head Metsuke as a player and he contolls all the metsuke actions, and the Shinobi Sensei controlling all the ninja actions and the Abbot controlling all the monks.

[Zim]

I like that idea. It adds a lot of flavor both for the agents and the monk troops.

You're almost certainly right about not having a ton of any particular agent (unless everyone wants to be a ninja ). Even if we get a lot of players Ninja and Metsuke number 2 is much more likely, and he's either working closely with the head guy, eyeing his position, or both.

However our other agents actions get funded could provide the recruitment and upkeep costs for the monk troops (their missions are free, anyway). Maybe their income is set by term, and any they don't use is lost?

[Arjos]

This sounds omoshiroi :)
I have the DLCs, so can help testing for compatibility...

[Zim]

Amusing? I hope that's a good thing.

Thank you very much. That would be very helpful. Save compatibility has been a concern of mine. If you get a chance could you try this save I played a few quick turns through?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...id=205&id=9485

[phonicsmonkey]

(unless everyone wants to be a ninja ).

I want to be a ninja!

[Monk]

I am very interested in this.

I like the idea of players taking on the roles of agents as well. They would have very little to do in game (since agents have one action per turn) but would potentially have tremendous influence in the rpg aspect. Monk players in the Uesugi, for example, would likely have a lot of power due to that clan's overall flavor. Doubly so should there be "Head of X" roles.

I had an additional thoughts about Monks.
Maybe the Head Monk = "Abbot of XYZ Temple" (wherever he was recruited) will get control over all monk troops.
So he can try to build himself a monk army, or decide which Bow Monks or Naginata Monks go and join which army and for how long they stay there.
The general still decides the movement of the army and controls the monks in battle, but has to make sure he remains on good terms with the Temple if he wants to retain the service of the monk units.

That is a really cool idea.

Thank you very much. That would be very helpful. Save compatibility has been a concern of mine. If you get a chance could you try this save I played a few quick turns through?

I have the Ikko-Ikki DLC and nothing else. The save file loads perfect with no apparent corruption.

by the by, useful information for any S2TW RPG, the location of your save games:

http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1793874

[Arjos]

As Monk said it works fine, I recruited DLC units in Kai...
They are under Yoshinobu, here is the file...

[Nigel]

Great, this seems to be taking off.

I'd be intersted in a general's position.
Captain, waiting to become a general, or son, waiting to come of age, would be just as fine - if it is appropriate to voice preferences, yet.

In any case - looking forward to it, whatever role fate will give me.

[Ituralde]

I might be interested in this!

I think one important thing that has been missing from the discussion so far is what scope you had in mind for the playerbase. I'm asking because this has a direct impact on the rules and roles you are already thinking of. So far I think we're at something like nine major roles.

• Damyo
• Heir
• Commissioner for Warfare
• Commissioner for Finance
• Commissioner for Supply
• Commissioner for Development
• Head of Ninjas
• Head of Metsuke
• Head of Monks

So depending on the amount of players you could have a small focused approach, much like S2TW itself, where every participant has a major role to play and considerable powers at his command. From my experience this would be a refreshing appraoch from the older RPGs where there were far fewer major roles and more standard roles, who only had voting powers.

Which brings me to my second point: Voting? How could this be incorporated into the Shogun setting? My knowledge of medieval Japan is limited, but were ther precedents for democratic structures? Could they be incorporated sensibly in the game?

Anyway, I'm gonna follow this with interest!

[Zim]

Thanks for the link Monk. After being told how to find my save last night I was thinking that will be in the faq for our game.

As Monk said it works fine, I recruited DLC units in Kai...
They are under Yoshinobu, here is the file...

I can download and play the save without any problems, even with the units you recruited (we'll have to not use them in the rpg itself).

Great, this seems to be taking off.

I'd be intersted in a general's position.
Captain, waiting to become a general, or son, waiting to come of age, would be just as fine - if it is appropriate to voice preferences, yet.

In any case - looking forward to it, whatever role fate will give me.

No problem giving preferences right now, although it could be a little while. I'm thinking the goal is to have a ruleset together within a few days, but I'm not sure how long it will take hammering that out into a final form.

I might be interested in this!

I think one important thing that has been missing from the discussion so far is what scope you had in mind for the playerbase. I'm asking because this has a direct impact on the rules and roles you are already thinking of. So far I think we're at something like nine major roles.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

• Damyo
• Heir
• Commissioner for Warfare
• Commissioner for Finance
• Commissioner for Supply
• Commissioner for Development
• Head of Ninjas
• Head of Metsuke
• Head of Monks

So depending on the amount of players you could have a small focused approach, much like S2TW itself, where every participant has a major role to play and considerable powers at his command. From my experience this would be a refreshing appraoch from the older RPGs where there were far fewer major roles and more standard roles, who only had voting powers.

Which brings me to my second point: Voting? How could this be incorporated into the Shogun setting? My knowledge of medieval Japan is limited, but were ther precedents for democratic structures? Could they be incorporated sensibly in the game?

Anyway, I'm gonna follow this with interest!

When Phonics was telling me about his idea for head agent titles, I initially said I liked the idea but worried that we'd have a game where most players had a title. It took only a few moments to wonder whether that would really be a problem or not. As long as most of them are still fun without being too taxing on their players (commissioner roles seem the worst for this, but they can be switched to new players), it could work and, as you say, would be a change from previous games, maybe a good one. Playerbase is tricky. By the midgame when our faction is fair sized I was thinking 10+ players. Most players would would then have more than a voting role.

From what little I know of Japan Samurai were very important, and not just in the military, tending to fill out a wide range of administrative roles. Perhaps the players have influence with these rank and file samurai, making them hard to ignore as advisors. If anyone has more knowledge of Japanese culture during the period could they correct me? The meetings each ten turns and voting have long been the staple of the rpgs here (it's even in the definition for the games stickied here) so this is a subject I'm very interested in. Doing away with a voting system or a big rehaul would be the biggest change (for good or ill) we could make compared to the other games.

[phonicsmonkey]

There are ways we could roleplay a voting system that would make it a representation of something other than actual voting.

To extend the idea that Zim suggests, perhaps the vote by players simply represents the 'weight of opinion' of notable persons in the faction.

Maybe, if this is the case, we make votes non-binding, in the sense that opinion could be ignored by the active party (whoever that happens to be). That could have considerable consequences.

On the topic of consequences I was also thinking about a way to cater for in-game 'disobedience'. For example, say the Commissioner for Finance instructs the Head Metsuke to send an agent to accompany a particular army and instead the Head Metsuke does something different.

He has disobeyed an order, something that happens in real life all the time. It'd be great to make it possible for this to happen in the game, within a framework that caters for it so we aren't all in a grey rules area all the time.

What if it's possible to disobey an order but the commanding officer can they decide to censure you? This would give players freedom to engage in skulduggery while knowing there is a potential cost to their action.

The proposed censure could be voted on and if passed a penalty could be applied according to a scale which is appropriate to the offence. Penalties could include fines (if there is personal property), loss of title or lands, temporary imprisonment (so the avatar is out of the game for a short period) or even death.

Making it an interesting dilemma for the player as to whether to disobey and also presenting the commander with a dilemma as to whether to press for censure. All creating lovely IC conflict and politicking within a framework that guides players' decisionmaking.

[Zim]

Cool idea. Would censure votes be confined to the major voting each ten turns or occur right away?

I may have missed it in the posts thus far, have we discussed who would be giving orders to head agent. Daimyo, certain commissioners (warfare for ninjas, Finance or development for Metsuke, Monks are independent, something like that)? Would there be a limit to how many orders could be given in a term, and the head agents can otherwise direct resources as they see fit? What happens if you try to censure and fail?

Starting when I get off work next morning (I work a graveyard shift) I'll start working on a very rough draft of the rules utilyzing the suggestions given so far. While it's not the same as actually playing the game, seeing everything together in a rules set might help us imagine how it will all work in game, and give a base for further additions and changes, as well as helping us see if we start to get feature heavy. Of course, the draft will be mostly for discussion, and nothing will be set in stone just yet.

[phonicsmonkey]

Cool idea. Would censure votes be confined to the major voting each ten turns or occur right away?

Right away.

I may have missed it in the posts thus far, have we discussed who would be giving orders to head agent.

Above I suggested:

The Head Ninja (call him Shinobi?) could report directly to the Daimyo who would have the power to direct all ninja activities for a given turn. If no specific orders are given by the Daimyo (and 'take no action' is an order) then the Head Ninja has discretion. The other ninjas do what the Head Ninja tells them unless there are no orders in which case they can do as they please (perhaps with restrictions around action against clans which are not enemies).

The Head Metsuke could report to the Commissioner for Finance who would have the power to direct which cities metsuke are to oversee (except in the case of no orders etc.). Except in wartime when the Commissioner for Warfare gets to appeal to the Daimyo for the release of specific metsuke to travel with armies or apprehend enemy agents. They would then be his to control until the Commissioner for Finance (or Head Metsuke) successfully appeals to the Daimyo for their release back to oversee towns.

I'm thinking the Monks could be an independent force and report to no-one (except the Head Monk).

Would there be a limit to how many orders could be given in a term, and the head agents can otherwise direct resources as they see fit?

Not sure...perhaps it should be less formal than that. After all, particularly in wartime the situation is likely to be fluid and we want the Daimyo (for example) to be able to make turn-by-turn decisions on who to assassinate, sabotage etc. If he misses the boat and the Head Ninja takes the turn first then the Head Ninja has discretion. Of course the HN should be looking for his orders but he may not always want to...

A loose structure here might reap benefits in terms of IC conflict!

What happens if you try to censure and fail?

Perhaps you lose influence for a time? proportional to the level of censure you tried to apply?

[deguerra]

Some nice ideas.

Doing away with a voting system or a big rehaul would be the biggest change (for good or ill) we could make compared to the other games.

An interesting thought. I'm tempted to say that 'roles' are already powerful enough without removing votes altogether. That said, I like the idea of votes being informal and non-binding.

None of you so far have mentioned player structure (in terms of houses or families or whatever we called them). While ironically it almost works best historically with STW2, I wouldn't mind giving the game a try without the usual strict hierarchy and associated bonuses. It would free of inter-player diplomacy to be more varied and less rigid. And it would mean that a smaller playerbase or dwindling numbers (IMO the bane of all our RPGs) would be less of an issue.

I'd still be up for making Mon though

[Arjos]

For the little I know about Sengoku Jidai Japan, the Daimyo held war councils where every general could and had to make known his view regarding strategy, but the final say was the Daimyo's...
So orders where issued according to his plan, influenced or not by his generals, and he could take control or choose a "delegate"...
Same with agents, with the head/s of each commission be given free hand or directives...
Influence points is a very good idea, could determine if one gets pardoned, trusted or forced to commit seppuku :D