Dishonouring Treaties.

[spankythehippo]

Say, I broke an alliance with a clan. And I have plans to destroy their clan, but without ME declaring war. If I piss them off enough (Hostile Agent Actions), where THEY declare war on ME, do I still get the Dishonouring Treaties thing?

I need to kill Kikkawa, and when I just went to war with them, every clan hated me. Except my allies, the Chosokabe, who became Indifferent. I realised the Dishonouring Treaties was -200. So I loaded a previous save, and start having my ninja and monks stirring up. Inciting revolts (unsuccessfully), assassinations, you know. Stuff like that. I think it might work, if they declare war on me, so I can pretend to be the innocent bystander.

[Shigemasa Oyamada]

The dishonoring treaties penalty applies regardless of the other clan's actions or any other events, I think.

[aimlesswanderer]

Ironically, as the Mori, I got rid of the Amako, then tried to annoy the Ouichi (the allies to your west) to declare on me. Then the Kikkawa declared on me, and so I then really needed to Ouichi to stay onside. Conveniently, my Daimyo under whose leadership many threats and the like had been made against the Ouichi, met an unfortunate end, and so suddenly everyone liked me again! The Ouichi are once again solid allies.

[spankythehippo]

Well, to update on what happened, Kikkawa didn't declare war on me at all. Even though I stole 5 provinces from them with my monk-ninja partnership. And my clan fame didn't rise as high as it should, which is good. And, when they did declare war on me (because of Realm Divide), there was no Dishonouring Treaties. So all is good. My allies, the Chosokabe, are incredibly helpful.