This Person is a Member of the US House of Representatives

[Xiahou]

Stand your ground: What could possibly go wrong?

I bet you he thinks twice before starting a shoving match with someone over slow service at a pizza joint again.

"There are arguments every day, but how many people pull out a gun? When you pull a gun out and shoot somebody, your life better be in danger," White said. "He was in my face and I pushed him. His life was not being threatened."

Next time someone is "in his face", maybe he'll do the right thing and walk away. I'm kind of surprised White wasn't charged with anything either. Maybe the police figure he paid enough by getting shot twice.

Personally, I know how quickly an altercation can spiral out of control. Someone yelling at you is not a good reason to assault them. Don't escalate something like that to violence- you don't know where it will stop.

It's hard to feel bad for either of the two knuckle-heads in this story.

[Xiahou]

Aquitted of all charges.

An appropriate end to a politically motivated prosecution.

[Lemur]

2nd degree murder was an overreach, but I'm surprised the defendant was acquitted of manslaughter.

-edit-

As for this being a "politically motivated prosecution," I find that a strange assertion. The media circus and political chest-thumping are sad, agreed, but the prosecution had to happen. You don't get to gun somebody down in very unclear circumstances and prance off like a show pony. Not in the USA. Or as one poster put it earlier in the thread:

I find it hard to believe that even if there was an assault, that it was completely unprovoked. Zimmerman had no reason I can conceive of to leave his vehicle and confront Martin. As a private citizen, carrying a firearm is a serious responsibility- not a license to play cop.

[Xiahou]

2nd degree murder was an overreach, but I'm surprised the defendant was acquitted of manslaughter.

-edit-

As for this being a "politically motivated prosecution," I find that a strange assertion. The media circus and political chest-thumping are sad, agreed, but the prosecution had to happen. You don't get to gun somebody down in very unclear circumstances and prance off like a show pony. Not in the USA.

The local authorities looked at the evidence and decided there was no point in arrested or charging Zimmerman. The story breaks in the national media and it becomes "racially motivated". Politicians, under pressure, force the prosecution on trumped up charges. Apparently the original authorities were right.

Maybe the circumstances weren't "unclear". We were fed a narrative as news consumers, the initial people responsible for this were not. They didn't think there was a case. The second degree murder charge was a farce- the manslaughter charge was a bit more reality based, but there was little hope of passing the "beyond a reasonable doubt" threshold.

[Lemur]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Every legal concept of "self defense" I've read or heard discussed involved being able to demonstrate that you had no alternative. When you actively instigate a confrontation, you've pretty much thrown self-defense out the window.

Eh, maybe this is where that incredibly creepy Stand Your Ground law comes into play; perhaps under Florida law self-defense has been broadened to Wild West values of vague.

But I agree with the Xiahou from earlier in the thread: Zimmerman clearly played some role in provoking whatever went down. And he wound up killing a fellow citizen. At the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel minimum, this should have been reckless endangerment.

[Whacker]

Yeah yeah, I'm clearly racist. From what I read the kid was a thug, multiple school suspensions and a bad track record. The shooter claims the kid punched and assaulted him, but this is all yet to be seen. I didn't say the kid deserved to be shot, going to wait and find out what comes out in court and see if I believe it first and it was true self defense. Either way, I'm definitely leaning towards his character was less than stellar and that he was a little thug.

I gotta agree with PJ's post for the most part, I'm utterly sick and tired of the race card being pulled all the damn time. It's got to the point where I develop this almost instinctive immediate counter-reaction and whenever a situation arises and the race card comes out, I start to believe the opposite party in the conflict.

Trial's over, verdict is in. I stand by my original assessments. This post has an excellent summary on Reddit that is 90-95% in agreement with all of my understandings: http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei..._issue/cat97s2 . Kid was unfortunately a thug and a punk, and he earned that dirt nap. It's unfortunate when people die, in this case I'd probably lay a good part of the blame at the feet of Treyvon's parents. Raising one's kids to do the right thing and be good persons isn't easy, but it's a need, and I think Americans in generally are doing an increasingly lousy job at it.

[Xiahou]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Every legal concept of "self defense" I've read or heard discussed involved being able to demonstrate that you had no alternative. When you actively instigate a confrontation, you've pretty much thrown self-defense out the window.

The self-defense standard is generally when you reasonably are in fear of serious bodily harm or death. The beating Zimmerman took included a broken nose and multiple lacerations. I think that standard was met.

Eh, maybe this is where that incredibly creepy Stand Your Ground law comes into play; perhaps under Florida law self-defense has been broadened to Wild West values of vague.

The chief of police said the Stand Your Ground law had nothing to do with it- it was self-defense.

But I agree with the Xiahou from earlier in the thread: Zimmerman clearly played some role in provoking whatever went down. And he wound up killing a fellow citizen. At the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel minimum, this should have been reckless endangerment.

Sure he played a role. He decided to do neighborhood watch. He got out of his car and tried to follow Martin. That doesn't mean he's criminally liable though.

Also, I don't think reckless endangerment is a crime on the books in Florida.

Here's a HLN timeline/map that outlines what went down that night.

Edit:

http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei..._issue/cat97s2

I think that does a fair job too.

[Lemur]

Also, I don't think reckless endangerment is a crime on the books in Florida.

Seems you are correct.

It gets better: Apparently under Florida law, you can use self-defense as an exoneration even if you started the fight. Lovely.

Kid was unfortunately a thug and a punk, and he earned that dirt nap.

Tasteless.

[Whacker]

Tasteless.

I had one last sentence in my previous post I removed in anticipation, I will share that now.

I eagerly await the self-righteous, flaming, rage-filled responses, and the snide, condescending ones as well.

Thank you for delivering.

[Lemur]

I have objected to your relentless use of the word "thug" since page 1 of this thread. So ... you've been awaiting what I delivered last March?*

How does that work? Is this one of those crazy time travel stories?

-edit-

*Correction: March 2012, which just makes @Whacker's time-travel powers EVEN MORE AWESOME.

[Whacker]

I have objected to your relentless use of the word "thug" since page 1 of this thread. So ... you've been awaiting what I delivered last March?

How does that work? Is this one of those crazy time travel stories?

I've been waiting for this situation to play out. He was a punk and a thug, and cry me a damn river for my calling it like it is, which was apparent enough early on even through all the media misdirection, hype, and BS. Walks like a duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck. I think the sad part is that Zimmerman essentially needs to move, change his name and identity if he wants anything approaching a normal life now.

[Lemur]

I think the sad part is that Zimmerman essentially needs to move, change his name and identity if he wants anything approaching a normal life now.

Oh, I dunno, if Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are any guide, he'll be fine if he keeps his nose clean from now on.

And I'm very disappointed this has nothing to do with time travel. You got me all nerd-excited when you declared that a long-standing point of contention was now new and revealing wickedness that shows how anyone who disagrees with you is, um, bad.

[Whacker]

Oh, I dunno, if Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson are any guide, he'll be fine if he keeps his nose clean from now on.

And I'm very disappointed this has nothing to do with time travel. You got me all nerd-excited when you declared that a long-standing point of contention was now new and revealing wickedness that shows how anyone who disagrees with you is, um, bad.

That's not my perspective, my dear prosimian.

You know how dogs like to find piles of poop and roll in them, because they like the scent? That's kinda what I'm doing with your responses and the additional condemnation that I hope will ensue. Sweet, delicious tears of rage, because I was right to begin with. The whole anti-gun, self-defense, think of the children, or whatever anyone thinks up is what I'm looking forward to here. He was a punk. He earned his dirt nap. Zimmerman is the victim here, not the punk. I feel worst for him at the end of all this for the reasons I stated previously. You want to rage at me for my choice of words, go right ahead.

[Lemur]

condemnation [...] tears of rage[...] rage at me [...]

Sadly, I don't think this thread is going to live up to your Cartman-esque hope for, uh, I think "rage" is the word you keep using?

My more rightwing friends on Facebook are all going on about how there will be riots. They seem kinda gleeful at the prospect. Maybe that will scratch the itch a little better?

Anyway, good luck with finding all of that rage. I think this was a nasty bit of business on multiple levels, and I find the thuggification of the dead man questionable, just as I find Zimmerman The Victim questionable. (And in fairness, I also find Trayvon The Martyred Saint questionable, as well as Zimmerman The Cold-Blooded Killer.) I agree with one of the conclusions of the Redditor you quoted, that this situation involved two hot-blooded men low on good sense, either of whom could have walked away.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I think the only good thing to come from this is that I learned from the media that a hispanic man is actually white.

[Whacker]

Sadly, I don't think this thread is going to live up to your Cartman-esque hope for, uh, I think "rage" is the word you keep using?

Don't kill my troll boner here. I'm really hoping for some dismissive anti-gun vitriol, preferable from a non-American. Bonus points for passive-aggressive.

My more rightwing friends on Facebook are all going on about how there will be riots. They seem kinda gleeful at the prospect. Maybe that will scratch the itch a little better?

No, because I'm not parasitically feeding off of Fartbook posts. I do hope there won't be riots, but it wouldn't entirely surprise me. If there's one thing we aren't in short supply of here it's ignorance.

Anyway, good luck with finding all of that rage. I think this was a nasty bit of business on multiple levels, and I find the thuggification of the dead man questionable, just as I find Zimmerman The Victim questionable. (And in fairness, I also find Trayvon The Martyred Saint questionable, as well as Zimmerman The Cold-Blooded Killer.) I agree with one of the conclusions of the Redditor you quoted, that this situation involved two hot-blooded men low on good sense, either of whom could have walked away.

That's the part I don't agree with really at all, about two hot blooded men. Following someone from a good distance isn't provocative, period. End of story. Doesn't pass common sense, the laugh test, or legal muster. Everything I read thus far tells me that not only was Zimmerman non-provocative, but the Punk (as he shall be henceforth dubbed) made a point to go BACK to find Zimmerman AGAIN to teach him a lesson, at which point most of the shizzle ensues. I believe absolutely that all of the blame for the actual conflict can be laid at the feet of the Punk. He earned every last bit of what happened to him. If someone's sitting on my chest in the middle of the street at 9am punching my face into the concrete, you can bet your sweet NRA-member tookiss I'm going to give said individual a 9mm injection.

[Lemur]

Bonus points for passive-aggressive.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Following someone from a good distance isn't provocative, period. End of story. Doesn't pass common sense, the laugh test, or legal muster.

Fat boys with guns shouldn't be tracking people in the dark, in violation of their own self-made neighborhood watch rules. And when a 911 dispatcher advises you to stay in the car, maybe you stay in the car?

Even if you choose (from the beginning) to read all evidence as exonerating Zimmerman, he was still guilty of being an gobsmacking idiot. I still object to declaring him the "real" victim.

I predict there will be no riots. File this under "exonerations most Americans find weird," just like OJ and Casey Anthony. The racial angle is just a bonus cherry on top of the fecal sundae.

[Whacker]

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

No, it means what I think it means. Thanks for the link though.

Fat boys with guns shouldn't be tracking people in the dark, in violation of their own self-made neighborhood watch rules.

Thankfully your opinion about who can be where and when has zero bearing on what's actually reasonable from a common sense or legal standpoint.

And when a 911 dispatcher advises you to stay in the car, maybe you stay in the car?

911 dispatchers aren't directly on the scene and don't have a complete picture of what's going on, as well as Zimmerman's own ability to decide for himself what's reasonable, coupled with my above statement. Not provocative. Thanks for playing. If I'm following you from about 3 feet that's one thing. If I'm following you from someone's yard or more then no, but thanks for playing.

Even if you choose (from the beginning) to read all evidence as exonerating Zimmerman, he was still guilty of being an gobsmacking idiot.

Nope.

I still object to declaring him the "real" victim.

Noted. Rejected.

I predict there will be no riots. File this under "exonerations most Americans find weird," just like OJ and Casey Anthony. The racial angle is just a bonus cherry on top of the fecal sundae.

In all of this, my good man, we are in violent (har!) agreement.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Will you two just kiss already?

[Whacker]

Will you two just kiss already?

SIGH. http://espn.go.com/espn/story/_/id/9...on-martin-case

[Xiahou]

And when a 911 dispatcher advises you to stay in the car, maybe you stay in the car?

This was another misconception. Zimmerman got out of his car to find an address and the dispatcher then asked if he was following Martin. He said he was and the dispatcher told him he didn't need to do that. Zimmerman said he stopped at that point and headed back towards his vehicle when he claims Martin jumped him.

We'll never know for certain what happened, but he wasn't told to stay in his vehicle and then left over the dispatchers objections.

Call transcript.

Honestly, looking at the maps and reading timelines and testimony- It looks like it was likely that Martin did circle back around to confront Zimmerman. But we're all just speculating.

The important take-away is that the evidence never had any hope of reaching a "beyond reasonable doubt" threshold that Zimmerman acted criminally. The investigators apparently realized this. The original DA apparently realized this. The media and then politicians got involved and Zimmerman found himself called everything from a racist to a child molester finally getting a bogus second-degree murder charge that had no basis in reality... bordering on malicious prosecution.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I feel like actually typing a big post about this, but I really don't know if it will just fall on deaf ears. These media trials are nothing but toxic for our culture.

[Lemur]

I really don't know if it will just fall on deaf ears.

You should type that big post. If you look at the exchanges so far, you will see that even as we disagree, we do listen to one another.

That fact alone elevates this little forum above 99% of the internet. It's the reason I keep coming back.

-edit-

A pretty good analysis of why no manslaughter charge was reached. Looks as though there was just a general lack of hard facts; too little evidence, not enough witnesses.

Fair enough, if distasteful all around.

All in all, I find the saint-ification (hagiography for word nerds) or demonization of either man to be unsupported by what little hard evidence exists. Note that on this board, in this context, nobody has been saying that Martin was a shining example of innocent youth. But to leap to "thug" and "punk" is unsupported, and says more about the person saying it than the subject of their attentions. Likewise, to declare Zimmerman "the real victim" is about as much of an overreach as, say, charging someone with 2nd degree murder when you have few hard facts and fewer witnesses.

[Xiahou]

A pretty good analysis of why no manslaughter charge was reached. Looks as though there was just a general lack of hard facts; too little evidence, not enough witnesses.

That link about sums up my thinking.... "In the end, the only way I could see a conviction would be to discard the standard of a presumption of innocence and embrace the invitation of the prosecution to assume every fact against Zimmerman"

There was no case against Zimmerman. There never was and the local authorities knew it. That's why I say this case was politically driven.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This type of trial is what honestly makes me concerned for the health of the country as a whole and in particular as a culture. I made the choice a year or two back to become completely ignorant in all regards to what the current buzz is in today's media. I used to be a complete political junkie thinking that I could remain an independent mind if I only sampled enough sources and kept my head, but at some point during the last presidential debates I realized that the cumulative effects of following the media even for the four years between the ages of 16-20 made me a complete fool and utterly biased in favor of one side (Obama's). In particular I have Sasaki and RVG to thank for unabashedly beating me down in the Backroom thread about those debates. Now I am even further removed from all my political updates and social media websites, I can't help but feel that the necessary and prudent course of action for all criminal cases that by chance grab the attention of the media should result in an immediate acquittal.

I am honestly proud to claim ignorance on a large number of cases that became national travesties.

1. The Duke Lacrosse Scandal
2. Casey Anthony
3. George Zimmerman

I am sure there are few others I don't even remember because I cared not to spend a single moment reading about it.

The nation as a whole suffers from the same disease that I suffered. It's the Big Lie that the truth lies somewhere in the aggregate. Those who simply follow the cases from one source (The Fox News/Nancy Grace type followers) are already a lost cause. But the average person will hear about it first on CNN complete with the first twitter reactions by blacks you have heard of and random people living in Minnesota. They will also read an article they saw on their Yahoo! front page and hear Brian Williams talk about it on NBC later that day. This is what people think is a diversity of sources but in reality they are all saying the same thing or they are deliberately fabricating a story to sell you. Some sources even go so far as to fabricate evidence to keep the story intact. There is nothing good to be found from combing through all of them hoping that the bigger picture will become crystal clear. They are are all poisons and the only progress you make is in concocting your own personal blend of mind killing cocktail.

What is more evident than ever is that our institutions of news are no longer trying to sell us entertainment, they have crossed the line and are now actively provoking us into generating content for them, with our vitriol and our hatred fueled by preconceived notions that were planted in our heads by media companies to begin with. I find no other way to remedy the two obvious facts that the average american is absolutely sick of the partisan politics and yet partisanship is at an all time high. We see the decline in membership among both major parties in favor of that "harmonious" middle position we call "independent" which seems to encompass people of all views, commonly united only in their disgust of the system as a whole. And yet, we easily fall back onto labels when we become agitated. So obviously, in order for any story to be truly newsworthy it must be divisive, it must cause strife. Zimmerman wasn't a hispanic, he was white, if only because we need the white vs. black angle to make this story controversial.

Even talking about it all is so mind numbing, because its very nature is to make your emotions overcome you and to make sure you keep tuning in for more. Adrenaline junkies getting their fix with every interview from a controversial figure with controversial things to say. The very nature of television has become a monster that Edward R. Murrow could never have imagined.

This instrument can teach, it can illuminate; yes, and even it can inspire. But it can do so only to the extent that humans are determined to use it to those ends. Otherwise it's nothing but wires and lights in a box. There is a great and perhaps decisive battle to be fought against ignorance, intolerance and indifference. This weapon of television could be useful.

This weapon has been actively turned against the public, as always, for profit in someones pocketbooks. If the United States does not realize what is being done to them inside of their own house, the United States as a country will remain as a people divided. Unable to achieve anything good for the commons, unable to prevent the united interests from achieving what is commonly good for the few.

[Fisherking]

Racial and Religious bigotry are political tools to politicians and the media today.
It is only reported on when it meets their political agenda.

The News is used as a weapon of psychological warfare much more than to inform the populous.

What ever outlet you use, they seek to influence you and bring you to their way of thinking.

It is all part of “Bread and Circuses“ in the end.

The filter I try to use is Will this give people more liberty or does it give government more power.

It does not rob you of compassion for others or co-opt your views of what is just or unjust. It only means you can‘t always take things at face value.

[PanzerJaeger]

I am pleased with the verdict only because it represents a loss for the black community and the leftist race baiters who have consistently sought to use this case to incite racial animus throughout the nation regardless of all fact and reason as I profiled in the OP.

I have no sympathy for Zimmerman and it is a tragedy that the young man is dead. However, the self-serving insistence that this case was about American racism and not the poor decisions of two individuals should not be vindicated.

[Husar]

I'm just glad that common sense won the day and America has managed to restore some of my trust in the power and righteousness of gun ownership. I just wish we had more guns in Europe. Videos like this are a national disgrace. Down with the bleeding heart terrorism!

[rvg]

Justice for Trayvon!!!!1!!!!!!1111!

[Greyblades]

I'm just glad that common sense won the day and America has managed to restore some of my trust in the power and righteousness of gun ownership. I just wish we had more guns in Europe. Videos like this are a national disgrace. Down with the bleeding heart terrorism!

Not sure if sarcstic...

Also someone was paid to make a computer generated video of H&K factory getting encased in cement. That there's a talented programmer somewhere who was so hard up he agreed to do that makes me very sad for humanity.