[SS 6.4]Clash of Gods! 2

[Mithridate]

man i dont know about this whole spy situation in this game. i thought u said it was 2 agents a city at least tho if novgorod took 2 cities with agents already it is just one agent a city then? i took genoa with 2 agents while one went in a season. so thats wrong then? one then is good already? u know i took what u said on the first page as the final word on this matter so i made it 2 per city. if its just 1 i d had a whole nother game here. so whats the final ruling on all that

First time i used 1 spy on Serbonskaya, to get the AI to sally vs my general and 1 unit ( killed a lot of HA cheaply ) then retreated. Then i besieged with my main force, took it the turn after. Reduced losses by a little for me but mainly just made my general badass^^

Second time was on a Lithuanian castle with 2 spies, i cold take it by attacking the general standing outside it but he had a lot of cav archers and i hate having to chase them down so i chose to do that. Losses would have been about the same, or less had i not assaulted.

Ive only used spies to reduce losses/frustration, never to take something i could not due to being unsure about the rules that we are still seemingly disagreeing upon

Please, make it clear for the future. As early novgorod i have very few siege engines making it hard to expand fast, while the HRE have a lot of them.
I kinda need the ability to use spies, ive been lucky thus far however with the AI placing units outside his regions for me to attack

As stated, id like NO spies opening gates allowed except vs AI or free use (with a % restriction to prevent the death due to over 9000 reloads)
Anything else is simply a pain in the ass, to obey and enforce alike
@Myth

Can i use spies VS ai or not

[Myth]

OK let's make it clear. You need two spies to open the gates of a city, AI or human. Infiltrating must be the first thing you do on the turn (or second if you assassinate something). If you have a pack of 10 spies next to a city so at least one would go in on the first try I'd suspect you of loading, so play fair.

So far nothing has been taken earlier due to only one spy infiltrating as far as I can tell but plan accordingly and use 2 to make it fair for all of us. I personally haven't used spies like that yet, Portugal and Aragorn have been kind enough to let me maul their armies in the open field.

[Mithridate]

If you have a pack of 10 spies next to a city so at least one would go in on the first try I'd suspect you of loading, so play fair.

Exactly what i do not want, keeping it clear cut is the way

But, youre the admin, ill bend my knee grudgingly or not and shall keep to this

[Myth]

What exactly do you begrudge? How would you have it?

[Mithridate]

2 spies to open gates and a minimal success chance to infiltrate at 60% Previously infiltrated spies have to re-infiltrate if an enemy spy is present.
A screen must be posted showing the infiltrated spies as proof.

Simple rules for a simple game, screens for each spys odds is nice but not needed.

This pretty much eliminates reloading and makes spies a valid and simple tool in war. a rank 3 spy gets 60% odds usually and no matter how good a spy is, he wont get more than 20% ish chance to infiltrate a place with an enemy spy in it, regarless of its rank.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The % bar is needed as ive had people reload spies into my fort that i had spies inside... one of em had 8% chance to infiltrate, other 10%
This is borderline ridiculous, thus the need. 30% and basically any spy can infiltrate but still wont be allowed if an enemy spy is present

My main grudge is that its incredible hard to regulate, check and prove anything under current rules

As stated, its easy to see if the enemy have a defensive spy, odds to infiltrate will be ridiculously low. the re-infiltrate thing is to eliminate the loophole of an earlier infiltration being impossible to prevent from opening gates despite you specifically placing your own spies in the region/fort to counter said spies. (with luck you can assasinat them, if not you have to wait for them to be discovered on their own)

If not that, then id hardline NO opening gates except vs AI as its simply too easy to abuse and way too hard to check (not to mention prove)

[Myth]

Just help me understand here. Infiltration you mean actually right clicking and having the spy enter the settlement/fort, right? Not the % chance to open the gates next turn? So basically unless you have 60% chance to infiltrate/enter that spot, you just don't right click it until:

1. You assassinate the enemy defensive spy
2. The enemy moves the spy
3. Your guy gets better and has a higher %

??? If that's so, people will reload to train up their spies on enemy stacks... I'd say leaving spies against AI and no spies against humans is better and cleaner, but I'd like to hear what the others are saying.

Overall though I think all of us are beyond such petty reloading.

[Mithridate]

Just help me understand here. Infiltration you mean actually right clicking and having the spy enter the settlement/fort, right? Not the % chance to open the gates next turn?

Exactly!

So basically unless you have 60% or more chance to infiltrate/enter that spot, you just don't right click it (infiltrate)l:

Indeed,, unless you have 60% or higher you are not allowed to infiltrate with the spy

1. You assassinate the enemy defensive spy
2. The enemy moves the spy
3. Your guy gets better and has a higher %

Indeed to all (even a maxed spy wont get a good enough % vs a lvl 0 spy), because unless that spy/all defending spies leaves or dies you wont get odds higher than 20% or so. Because the minimum chance needed is 60% to infiltrate

??? If that's so, people will reload to train up their spies on enemy stacks... I'd say leaving spies against AI and no spies against humans is better and cleaner Im all good with that, but I'd like to hear what the others are saying.

Overall though I think all of us are beyond such petty reloading.

Even if you have an elite spy, he will never be able to get over 20% ish chance against a town/castle or fort that has a defending spy inside
People will train up their spies regardless, i dont see how that is an issue I am not above reloading, i dont do excessive reloading tho

Opening gates vs AI only works, supported by silver too.
A shame, spies are great tools adds a lot of strategy to waging a war

[LooseCannon1]

The Turks have the best spies in the world. When I see an 80% chance I know my guy is going to die. I didn't bother reloading just to keep him

No restrictions on use vs AI. No opening gates of human settlements. -That's my opening statement. I can't decide if allowing spy use against fort is good or bad.

[SilverShield]

i aint up for that stuff of this many agents and that much percentage and counter spies and whatever. and i aint up for constant nonsense just because i had a certain amount of agents in one certain area. i always got tons of agents in one area recon is my craft thats it. so yea i favor banning spies from opening anything in this game. in the first cog we still managed to have a good game without spies

[Myth]

@Nightbringer thoughts?

[Nightbringer]

I this point, I think I too would favor just banning spies from opening gates against human players.

[Mithridate]

So it is settled then?

No spies opening gates except vs AI

[Myth]

Use two spies to open vs. the AI and not open anything vs. human players.

[LooseCannon1]

Still having movement problems. Must be a hidden trait or a variation based on the version of M2TW Myth uses. I think the SS movement problems always show up in European versions of the game.

France up https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...d=279&id=10329

[Nightbringer]

HRE up! @SilverShield
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...d=279&id=10331

[SilverShield]

moors up
http://depositfiles.com/files/khwyu0cxq

[SilverShield]

tho i see its still just one infiltration a season and its the first or second thing to do right then? at least thats how i did

Use two spies to open vs. the AI and not open anything vs. human players.

[Myth]

tho i see its still just one infiltration a season and its the first or second thing to do right then? at least thats how i did

Ayup.

[Mithridate]

Cmon^^ Its all so incredibly slow, the way of the trone room i fear

[Myth]

Silver played his turn a few hours ago and I will post mine today.

Novgorod up. @Mithridate

Regarding the train a general function in SS - GB units have 0 upkeep, replenish for free and are the best cav in the game (for a long while at least). I suggest we do not abuse them - hire one if you need him to lead a stack or govern a city, but don't make superstacks of 12 GB units. Eastern generals are especially bad.

[Mithridate]

Actually, they cost 200 in upkeep each( more for heirs and FLs due to larger units )
Its deducted from wages, not army upkeep. The bodyguard detail showing 0 is incorrect

They are amazing against the AI :P

[freakkriek]

Hi, guys currently on a project. I won't be at my computer tonight so save will be up by tomorrow. It'll probably still be in the acceptable time table, but since some already "feared" I wouldn't be reliable i thought it would be best posting this just in case =D

[LooseCannon1]

Regarding the train a general function in SS - GB units have 0 upkeep, replenish for free and are the best cav in the game (for a long while at least). I suggest we do not abuse them - hire one if you need him to lead a stack or govern a city, but don't make superstacks of 12 GB units. Eastern generals are especially bad.

Actually, it's scholarii,(unit size and AP maces for secondary weapon) then lancers, gendarmes, Late western GBs-all ahead of eastern GBs. But the top three have very limited availability and there are other cavalry that are better than early GBs unless you are auto-resolving.

[Myth]

Yes but if you read my post you see for a long while. At the start of the Late campaign none of these are available except for Scholarii. Lancers, Gendarmes and Gothic Knights we can get after the year 1350 or something which is way, waaaay longer than any hotseat has a chance of reaching. Plus auto replenishing > having to trudge back to Constantinople to retrain.

Though Scholarii are imbalanced for sure, mass GB units are a pain in the ass especially this early where we still don't have so many recruitment centres to spam and retrain cav. Currently eastern generals trump western ones by a wide margin, though with the coming of full plate I suppose the west will pick up.

[Mithridate]

GB are way better, not om pure stats ofc but due to being easy to get and in large numbers, cheap and replenishes for free

They hands down win and allows you to steamroll the AI immediately while it can be reasonably challenging without em :)

[LooseCannon1]

Yes, but GBs require a Fortress and then take 20 turns to replenish. It's rare for a player to have 4 (or more) fortresses in the first 50 turns. In UDS as Egypt (late era SS skip game) I only had 12 generals for my first 20 regions. Had to recruit six generals and most of those guys were 2 star (or worse). Only one was above 2. But as an eastern faction I have a counter for any general in a fought battle. .

[freakkriek]

Turks are up

CoG2-6-Turks.rar
@LooseCannon1

[LooseCannon1]

france up https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...d=279&id=10337

[Nightbringer]

HRE up! @SilverShield
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local...d=279&id=10338

[Myth]

I'm not saying don't hire genreals, I'm saying use them as intended - as governors or army leaders. Don't abuse their rather overpowered status as self-replenishing cav in mass numbers.