EB2 Comabat balance

[brodinis]

Hello,

Played with many factions like 2 days now and i can say i am not impressed. Maybe you guys did nothing with combat and balancing units. It is clear to me and other not ignorant people who have online 1v1 experience that some unit types do not deliver combat feeling at the battle map. So i decided to write those things that make me worry about the actual combat.

1) I noticed that you wanted battles to be prolonged. Witch is a good thing, but for that some unit types like skirmishers, HA, Elephants, skirmishing chariots and jav cavalry does not deliver their effectiveness to the player. Examples are very obvious :

2) Elephant morale is very weak, and their effectiveness is really lacking, charge is lacking, high upkeep cost( 2500 ) for a bad unit that cannot even do some real damage to inf units while charged from behind is ridiculous. Their not worth recruiting and even placed at the battle lines.

3) Foot skirmishers, javelin throwers. All i can say they do not have their place in the battlefield. Why? cause they suck, and a lot. There is no real advantage to have them there. Not sinchronized projectile throw by all the unit models in the unit is really terrible. They supposded to be your armor piercing unit from behind off phalanx, but their not, they do not pierce armor and they do no damage to the enemy. Why ? because they throw javs like 5 in 2 minutes, and the damage effectiveness is really lacking in that regard, not to mention how they bug out and do not throw anything at all, just imitating, or just running arround and fails to attack the enemy. There is not even good reason why you as a player should tech to elite skirmishers, cuz they do no damage asvell. What is the point , of better morale or melee? They need to be changed. I suggest throw speed like you did with other units, like spearmen throwing spears to enclosing enemy really fast. I know you wanted battles to be prolonged with units dealing less damage overall, but jav throwers do no damage in that regard, my suggestion do not leave them as cannon fodder as they are now, make them less missiles to throw but a lot faster, and then they just fill the gaps on the melee and support the heavies. Because now they only good for cannon fodder or throw them away, and really feels that they do no impact on the battlefield, just running arraund and do no shit.

4) Next is javelin throwing cavalry. They suck at the same reason they attack very slow. This is simillar situation with foot javelineers. And most of them just rout when they see heavy cavalry unit approaching them. You need to do their morale higher and javelin throwing speed much faster, after javelins thrown out, they just go and act like light cavalry. The morale with helenes javelin cavalry is really lacking not even engaged in melee they rout form simple medium cav. This should not be like this. They hardly throw any javelins at the enemy, and you can hardly call them harrasers !

5) Slingers and foot archers. Now those deal no damage at all if you compare them to rome1 and EB1. Atleast in rome1 if you run with the archers and slings on the enemy's infantry sides where there is no shields or even in the back, they were dealing like 50% or 100% more projectile damage, that was logical, cuz enemy were fighting your infantry body and was not prepared to raise the shield to defend. Slingers do not pierce armor at all or even do so real work on damaging enemy's. This need to be done in other way. When in battle you should feel their role and effectiveness as a player, otherwise, battles for me are like dead. Slingers asvell might do fatigue damage if you do not want them to be killing too fast. These units should be effective and make the feel like you need them on the battlefield. And now it feels like cannon fodder with no real impact on battlefield.

6) Horse archers. You made them with such small ammunition capacities that if you summon like 10 hoplite unit you would loose almost emmediatly to every hellenic faction being as HA faction. I tested HA with Sarmation. AI had like 8-9 classical hoplite units and i had like 14-16 HA with like 6 elite HA. SO Ammuniton went down really fast and aproximetly out off 81 men in a squad of hoplites there were dead like 11 unit models, so about 70 hoplites were alive in a squad. This is a death wish to HA faction campaigns. In rome1 or EB1 for instance, you were microing your HA that they appear on the backs of the enemy or sides where there is no shields, and do some real work. But now, there is no such factor at this mod, it means you have to rely on heavy cav, witch at the start you do not have. And it feels like HA combat is bold now, with no reason to micro and do stuff on the battlefield.

7) Chariot archers and javelineers. Pathing problems, javelin throw speed too slow, really not effective.

I HOPE YOU READ THIS POST, i love what you do, but at the moment the game is lacking, and i have no interest to play battles when there is no tactics just plain slaughter.

[a completely inoffensive name]

While I do agree with the sentiment that slingers and skirmishers and archers could use a buff, I think a large part of the problem is just buggy combat. Obviously having skirmishers do a throwing animation but throw nothing is a bug (at least in my eyes). I am sure for later versions, the combat animation and bugs will be worked out and the power of those units will be fully realized. Same goes for chariot pathing.

[joshmahurin]

The unit balancing is undergoing constant work. The skirmisher types especially are going to receive a fix in the next patch I believe.

[I_damian]

Honestly, skirmisher units are so broken that we don't even need to mention it - you just KNOW that's the first thing that's going to be fixed in the next patch/version. I mean... it has to be... they're totally ****ed.

[Ibrahim]

Hello,

Played with many factions like 2 days now and i can say i am not impressed (terribly sorry). Maybe you guys did nothing with combat and balancing units. (uh...no: see reply) It is clear to me and other not ignorant (including the guy who made and tested the system) people who have online 1v1 experience that some unit types do not deliver combat feeling at the battle map. So i decided to write those things that make me worry about the actual combat.

first off, this took months of testing just to get it this far with the M2TW engine (and believe me, it was a real pain in the *** doing so). And it is based off a system developed for another mod, which was adapted for M2TW (the original was for Rome: Total war BI and ALEX). Thing is, testers were very few, and the person who made the system himself did not have as much time as he wanted to test the system (also, he had serious reservations about taking this post: he only accepted because no one else was there to do it). He has a job after-all, family, and another mod, to worry about. Did I mention that he's also forced to travel a lot and is applying to graduate schools? And being a human being, he has other interests too, like going on walks, or hiking, or checking out the latest market wares. he's kind of old-fashioned that way

second, we know things are imperfect. This is a beta afterall, and it will take time to refine this. This isn't an excuse for any problems: they're there, they need fixed or bypassed, but we are working on them. I am sorry this doesn't meet your satisfaction, but then, it doesn't meet mine. But That's the whole point behind this beta release: we need input and new team members. I can at least tell you that when we're actually done, it will God-willing be a lot less buggy.

Anyways, let us address the meat of the matter:

a) Elephant morale is very weak, and their effectiveness is really lacking, charge is lacking, high upkeep cost( 2500 ) for a bad unit that cannot even do some real damage to inf units while charged from behind is ridiculous. Their not worth recruiting and even placed at the battle lines.

Well, that was what they were like in real life too: overpriced panicky things that weren't too effective in combat, and were more psychological. I mean the Romans could scare them by opening their files and then making lots of noise. if only that could be done to people and horses...

but even leaving that aside: Elephants are indeed imperfectly stated, but We are working around the limitations of the engine--which has been the single biggest obstacle at this time for elephants.

b) Foot skirmishers, javelin throwers. All i can say they do not have their place in the battlefield. Why? cause they suck, and a lot. There is no real advantage to have them there. Not sinchronized projectile throw by all the unit models in the unit is really terrible. They supposded to be your armor piercing unit from behind off phalanx, but their not, they do not pierce armor and they do no damage to the enemy. Why ? because they throw javs like 5 in 2 minutes, and the damage effectiveness is really lacking in that regard, not to mention how they bug out and do not throw anything at all, just imitating, or just running arround and fails to attack the enemy. There is not even good reason why you as a player should tech to elite skirmishers, cuz they do no damage asvell. What is the point , of better morale or melee? They need to be changed. I suggest throw speed like you did with other units, like spearmen throwing spears to enclosing enemy really fast. I know you wanted battles to be prolonged with units dealing less damage overall, but jav throwers do no damage in that regard, my suggestion do not leave them as cannon fodder as they are now, make them less missiles to throw but a lot faster, and then they just fill the gaps on the melee and support the heavies. Because now they only good for cannon fodder or throw them away, and really feels that they do no impact on the battlefield, just running arraund and do no shit.

God you sound like Diocle at the IBFD forum...

anyways: the single biggest problem with the skirmishers has to do with the way the engine treats projectiles, not the animations or stats themselves. As a result, there tends to be a "minimum range" to the units. We only caught this problem relatively late, and were in the process of applying a solution when the stop work was in effect (and in fact, the reason the prec units work was because we did have just enough time for them). And players on here have been very kind to provide alternate versions of the Descr_projectile and some advice to help bypass the problem--which we are incorporating now. I suggest you look at those as well.

c) Next is javelin throwing cavalry. They suck at the same reason they attack very slow. This is simillar situation with foot javelineers. And most of them just rout when they see heavy cavalry unit approaching them. You need to do their morale higher and javelin throwing speed much faster, after javelins thrown out, they just go and act like light cavalry. The morale with helenes javelin cavalry is really lacking not even engaged in melee they rout form simple medium cav. This should not be like this. They hardly throw any javelins at the enemy, and you can hardly call them harrasers !

I have news for you: that was what they did in real life. Put yourself in their shoes: you're a random akontist, the nearest neighbor is 6-9 feet away, you are armed with javelins and only a dagger for self defense. You honestly think they'll sit their and fight the medium and heavy cavalry? if you think so, then nothing I do to fix this will help you.

having said that: you are right that the hippakontistai should throw their javelins first, and that they need to be faster. But again, we know, and are working on this. do not worry

5) Slingers and foot archers. Now those deal no damage at all if you compare them to rome1 and EB1. Atleast in rome1 if you run with the archers and slings on the enemy's infantry sides where there is no shields or even in the back, they were dealing like 50% or 100% more projectile damage, that was logical, cuz enemy were fighting your infantry body and was not prepared to raise the shield to defend. Slingers do not pierce armor at all or even do so real work on damaging enemy's. This need to be done in other way. When in battle you should feel their role and effectiveness as a player, otherwise, battles for me are like dead. Slingers asvell might do fatigue damage if you do not want them to be killing too fast. These units should be effective and make the feel like you need them on the battlefield. And now it feels like cannon fodder with no real impact on battlefield.

-the problem here is actually with the battle_config file. And a solution was actually released as a fix by @Moros. I suggest you download it. We will improve in this area over time.

6) Horse archers. You made them with such small ammunition capacities that if you summon like 10 hoplite unit you would loose almost emmediatly to every hellenic faction being as HA faction. I tested HA with Sarmation. AI had like 8-9 classical hoplite units and i had like 14-16 HA with like 6 elite HA. SO Ammuniton went down really fast and aproximetly out off 81 men in a squad of hoplites there were dead like 11 unit models, so about 70 hoplites were alive in a squad. This is a death wish to HA faction campaigns. In rome1 or EB1 for instance, you were microing your HA that they appear on the backs of the enemy or sides where there is no shields, and do some real work. But now, there is no such factor at this mod, it means you have to rely on heavy cav, witch at the start you do not have. And it feels like HA combat is bold now, with no reason to micro and do stuff on the battlefield.

again, see Moros' fix. they'll look a lot different when this is over.

7) Chariot archers and javelineers. Pathing problems, javelin throw speed too slow, really not effective.

well, I'm not an animator (well, not for M2TW anyways), so I can't fix that. If you can animate, we could always use more animators. As to pathing problems: hey, we're dealing with a stubborn engine here, and are trying to fix it. You should see what it was like when I started helping the EB team: people would go due north instead of west

I HOPE YOU READ THIS POST, i love what you do, but at the moment the game is lacking, and i have no interest to play battles when there is no tactics just plain slaughter.

well, warfare is just plain slaughter: tactics are what let you slaughter more efficiently.

and yes, we will read the posts. And you can be sure I have read EVERY post on this forum regarding the stat system, and noted it--no matter how stupid or petty the complaint may seem to some. I'd have failed my charge if I didn't.

[brodinis]

Well, you don't need to be that rude. i Don't think my post was worthless or stupid. Just my observations. If i wouldn't care about this game i wouldn't be writing a wall of text here ;) I just want every unit possible with their role in battles. Glad you responded.

P.s Dacian ( getai ) archers deal 7 missile damage?

[cahtush]

I'd also like to add Cavalry in general, I've not been able to get a single good charge off.
Most of the time they just charge up to the enemy... then stop just as they make impact.
It's even worse if one or two in the unit get ahead, it sometimes causes the whole unit to stop.
In EB1 a good charge could completely reverse a battle, causing lots of casualties and a big morale shock.

But this is probably has to do with the Med 2 engine, as charges in vanilla were very hit and miss (most of the time completely whiffing like in EB 2 and once in a while causing extreme damage).

[brodinis]

I'd also like to add Cavalry in general, I've not been able to get a single good charge off.
Most of the time they just charge up to the enemy... then stop just as they make impact.
It's even worse if one or two in the unit get ahead, it sometimes causes the whole unit to stop.
In EB1 a good charge could completely reverse a battle, causing lots of casualties and a big morale shock.

But this is probably has to do with the Med 2 engine, as charges in vanilla were very hit and miss (most of the time completely whiffing like in EB 2 and once in a while causing extreme damage).

+ 10 exactly, i forget to mention this problem too.

[adishee]

I'd also like to add Cavalry in general, I've not been able to get a single good charge off.

You can get good cav charges off -- you have to give them lots of room. I have no problem with it, it's very satisfying when one actually comes off with a perfect hit, and it's hard to spam, which makes it feel much more real.

[HFox]

Hi

I don't think he was being rude, you could read your OP and think you were being rude. NEVER read an on line post and put your nuance on the words. You have to read them without emotion or you will misinterpret them.
I actually found Ibrahim's post informative and elucidating, giving me a better idea about the issues they have been battling with over the past six years.
And are still working on.
If you want people to improve something you are getting for free, keep the feedback coming and try and be a little bit more understanding of them, their efforts and the limitations of a two dimensional medium. :)

[brodinis]

Hi

I don't think he was being rude, you could read your OP and think you were being rude. NEVER read an on line post and put your nuance on the words. You have to read them without emotion or you will misinterpret them.
I actually found Ibrahim's post informative and elucidating, giving me a better idea about the issues they have been battling with over the past six years.
And are still working on.
If you want people to improve something you are getting for free, keep the feedback coming and try and be a little bit more understanding of them, their efforts and the limitations of a two dimensional medium. :)

Yes you are right. My emotions exploaded a bit. I ll try to be more concervative and calm for future posts. I just want the perfect game in the battles and campaign ;)

[Ibrahim]

Well, you don't need to be that rude. i Don't think my post was worthless or stupid. Just my observations. If i wouldn't care about this game i wouldn't be writing a wall of text here ;) I just want every unit possible with their role in battles. Glad you responded.

I didn't say that. I suggest you reread my post. I said something quite a bit different. And no, I don't personally think what you said was either. It's a common complaint, and it has basis in fact, so what is the problem?

P.s Dacian ( getai ) archers deal 7 missile damage?

I know...I know. I had fixed this repeatedly (it's supposed to be a 3) prior to release, but some guy keeps overriding it, not heeding the commit's notes. I only recently uploaded it again unto the trunk (and am hoping it hasn't been lost yet). just change it to three, and let the matter drop. next release, you will get that value from the get-go...if someone doesn't override it again

that brings me to another thing: Since the system used now is so different to other mods, the EDUmatic goes unused for the battlefield stats. I'll leave you to figure out how values are implemented.


as to cavalry: yep--the engine is really the problem. just have them gallop/canter well ahead of where you charge, and hope they lower their lances. then they are respectable, though obviously you can't use them on their own: they're there to deal the mortal wound to the enemy army--like in real life. Just please, don't charge head on either way. That's a great way to lose cavalry.

[brodinis]

My problem is, i want the game perfect. Since i waited a loong time for it to become real ;)

[Yavana]

@brodinis no offence, but you kind of push it too hard :). I am sure EB team appriciates suggestions and probably you do not wish to sound rude but in fact, in my opinion, you do. You started a couple of threads just to make complaints and you are not right in even half of them but again, just try to be more polite:) Maybe EB team doesn't look at you the way I do but could really try to be more "mature". If you want the game to be perfect contribute to it in other way than just by making complain threads.

I hope you understand my point and bear no grudge towards me. Have fun :)

[Kull]

My problem is, i want the game perfect. Since i waited a loong time for it to become real ;)

So.

1) The game is never going to be perfect.

2) The fact you waited a long time for it has nothing to do with anything.

As other's have noted, the EB2 team has every intention of improving the things that can be improved. Some we can control, others are hard-coded and will never get better, while a very large subset will come down to design decisions made by the team. Not every person will agree with those, but that's just how it is.

AND. We were very EXPLICIT in stating that EB2 is "incomplete". If that is unacceptable, you can create your own submods to address the issues you find most annoying. What you may not do is hurl insults at the team or question our motivations or work ethic.

[Majasprat]

"My problem is, i want the game perfect. Since i waited a loong time for it to become real ;)"

Just be patient. It is a small team and they can only do so much, I find it remarkable that they even managed to make EBII.

[cahtush]

as to cavalry: yep--the engine is really the problem. just have them gallop/canter well ahead of where you charge, and hope they lower their lances. then they are respectable, though obviously you can't use them on their own: they're there to deal the mortal wound to the enemy army--like in real life. Just please, don't charge head on either way. That's a great way to lose cavalry.

Why do they act like that though?
Doesn't Med 2 use the same engine, or at least a modified version of it, as Rome 1?
I really like the way cavalry handled in Rome.

[Ludens]

Why do they act like that though?
Doesn't Med 2 use the same engine, or at least a modified version of it, as Rome 1?
I really like the way cavalry handled in Rome.

If I recall correctly (and it's a long time ago that I read this), the developers set the minimum charge distance too low for cavalry in M2:TW. I am just surprised this was never patched. And yes, M2:TW uses a modified version of the R:TW engine.