Is Indigenous Military Outposts bugged?

[Arjos]

You can still do it, because the Hellenic troops for Hellenistic factions are tied to the Government buildings...
This is about certain native units, culture conversion and recruitment pools...

clone I'm sorry, but you clearly have not understood the current system...

[clone]

You can still do it, because the Hellenic troops for Hellenistic factions are tied to the Government buildings...
This is about certain native units, culture conversion and recruitment pools...

clone I'm sorry, but you clearly have not understood the current system...

you cant blame me
neverthelss i already knew that. the problem is this
both historically and in eb ptolemis recruited bith locals and settlers in the same time specially in alexandria.
in alexandria you cant recruit machimoi because you cant build native colonie. you cant build native collony
1 you can build them only in a specific goverment .
2 if what you say is true you need to demolish level 3 hellenic settlers from allexandria. this not only removes a good amount of units but also is unrealistic and ahistorical specialy in ptolemies case

[QuintusSertorius]

Afaik you cannot build native colonies and hellenic colonies in the same settlement. It is a choice between two options within the same building tree :)

In the western Mediterranean settlements I have, there is no choice. It only allows me to build the Phourion Laon; even the building browser only shows it. Which does sound like a mistake to me, not only should I not be able to build it there, but I should have the option of the Metoikia Katoikon - which isn't available.

[Antigonos Karchedonios]

Do you have colonists? I think the hellenic garrison needs them, just as the polis do...

(Sorry if I'm confusing hellenic and indigenous military settlers, but you wan't to build the hellenic military colony right?)

[Arjos]

1 you can build them only in a specific goverment .

You don't need any specific govs, only culture %.

2 if what you say is true you need to demolish level 3 hellenic settlers from allexandria. this not only removes a good amount of units but also is unrealistic and ahistorical specialy in ptolemies case

You don't have to demolish anything. When you have colonists you can either settle native soldiers or hellenised ones.
Your factional hellenistic units will be completely uneffected...

Which does sound like a mistake to me, not only should I not be able to build it there, but I should have the option of the Metoikia Katoikon - which isn't available.

It's as if this thread did not take place XD
I said already this will be fixed...

[clone]

1You don't need any specific govs, only culture %.



You don't have to demolish anything. When you have colonists you can either settle native soldiers or hellenised ones.
Your factional hellenistic units will be completely uneffected...
.

1 in building browser indigenous phrourion has some requirments some of them are infastracture buildings and some of them are goverments like laarchia

2 but you said "Quote Originally Posted by Arjos View Post
Afaik you cannot build native colonies and hellenic colonies in the same settlement. It is a choice between two options within the same building tree :)"

[Arjos]

1 in building browser indigenous phrourion has some requirments some of them are infastracture buildings and some of them are goverments like laarchia

Not 100% sure for the indigenous one, but yes it could be. Although since you need a certain percentage of culture, you'd require governments to convert in the first place...
However I'm pretty certain that for the hellenic colony having military occupation is enough...

but you said "Afaik you cannot build native colonies and hellenic colonies in the same settlement. It is a choice between two options within the same building tree :)"

This is colonies we are talking about. The factional units ARE NOT recruited from colonies...

[clone]

This is colonies we are talking about. The factional units ARE NOT recruited from colonies...

the problem of not being able to build both hellenica colony and native colony is this

1 recruitment: i know about factional units. But with hellenic collonies you can build units that you cant only with the goverment. toxotai kretikoi,machairophoroi,kretikoi peltaste and other. if you build hellenic collonies ,as you said you wont be able to build native ones. This has two problems a) less units to play with,units that were used historically by the faction.b) historrically diadochi used both hellenic settlers and natives
recruitment

[Arjos]

Yes, clone, but what they did was settle specific groups in specific areas. The same region was not home to Karian or Kretan settlers and Aigyptian ones at the same time for example...

You are however free to make a submod for an highly gamey "every region can recruit every unit"...

[QuintusSertorius]

Do you have colonists? I think the hellenic garrison needs them, just as the polis do...

(Sorry if I'm confusing hellenic and indigenous military settlers, but you wan't to build the hellenic military colony right?)

No, I don't have any colonists, I don't own a Metropolis in this game (I've just got Massalia and Emporion, which have a Small Polis each).

I want to build a Hellenic military colony, but the only option is the aforementioned indigenous one. Didn't realise you need colony points for that. Shouldn't it still be on the building browser anyway?

[clone]

Yes, clone, but what they did was settle specific groups in specific areas. The same region was not home to Karian or Kretan settlers and Aigyptian ones at the same time for example...

You are however free to make a submod for an highly gamey "every region can recruit every unit"...

1 maybe you forgot alexandria home to both greeks and egyptians
2 nevertheles ptolemies right now are realy penaltized from this system.unit like toxotai kretike and other who were historically used by this faction and in eb cannot be recruited now unless you build a hellenic collony (and if you build a colony no machimoi) a sollution to this would be to make all those units (like toxotai kretikoi )recruitable in central goverment

3 the biggest misanderstanding with native phrourion is what it means . a) local recruitment b) non greek settlers ,what ptolemies did with galates and egyptians

a) if this building represents local recruitment you should be able to build both hellenic collony and recruit from the local. the fact that you brought 1000 collonist from hellas shouldnt make rome unable to recruit local units

b) if this building represents non greek settlers to a town as ptolemies did with egyptians and galates then there are 4 problems with this system.

1) recruitment doesnt fit with the name and purpose of native settlers colonies. if as seleukid you conquered alexandria if you build native phrourion you should be able to recruit persians there not native edyptians

2 in order to bring something you need to already have it. if as makedonia conquer a german town and build native phrourion i will be able to build some units. if those units represent settlers,settlers from where?

3 this mean that certain factions like epeiros where their cities had many regional units cannot recruit them now because they need laarchia,and if you build laarchia no greek units can be build from goverment nor from colony

4 this means that if city has only two regional units. if you build native goverment you wont be able to recruit greeks so you are left with only two units, and if you build greek goverment you will loose the regional units so why to create them in first place.
this is not only historically inacurate(that an epeiros player will have to choose between 3 ylirian units or greeks when they used both) but also has problems in game play
so the beutifull regional recruitment mechanism from ebi is no more

if the team for some reason doesnt want to change the system ,its fine but i have give many valid reasons both from historical and game play perspective why this system is wrong
and sorry to bother you with the questions

[Arjos]

First of all in Alexandria you can have them by just building a native colony. But again you over simplify, the population of Alexandria was heavily hellenised, the natives adopted Makedonian customs to fit in and make a career. The Machimoi for example were not recruited there.

Also you cite troops left and right, historically the Ptolemaioi had several recruiters travelling to Hellas or Mikra Asia. Most of the soldiers you mention were enlisted there before a campaign and then travelled to Aigyptos...

It is no misunderstanding, the native colony speaks for the militarisation of the local population or settlement of your own veterans, which mixing also with the locals further your own culture and way of warfare, nor bringing people to a place and using them at that moment. The Galatai will be factional and mercenary, for the Ptolemaioi invited them and settled them as Klerouchoi...

Your idea that you should be able to recruit Persian soldiers in Alexandria goes completely against what EBII stands for and is very peculiar...

For your example about a Makedonian possession in Germania, the native colony would be the militarisation and integration in the political system of Germanics, which would fight in their own ways. While an Hellenic colony there would acculturate Germanics to fight as Hellenes, thanks to the settlement of Makedonian veterans...

What you are failing to understand or accept is that, going by your Epeirote example, is that you can recruit factionals and hellenised troops in say Ambrakia, but recruit some factionals and Illyrian troops in Epidamnos...
EBII's system considers demographics and socio-political standings, something EBI's did not...

Your claim for accuracy whereby every single region has to be able to recruit everything is a fantasy.

[clone]

"Your idea that you should be able to recruit Persian soldiers in Alexandria goes completely against what EBII stands for and is very peculiar..."

this example would be valid if native phrourion represented eastern settlers as i have heard by many in this forum.

"Your claim for inaccuracy whereby every single region has to be able to recruit everything is a fantasy"

i didnt say everything just this "a) if this building represents local recruitment you should be able to build both hellenic collony and recruit from the local. the fact that you brought 1000 collonist(native colony first building) from hellas shouldnt make rome unable to recruit local units.
"

"What you are failing to understand or accept is that, going by your Epeirote example, is that you can recruit factionals and hellenised troops in say Ambrakia, but recruit some factionals and Illyrian troops in Epidamnos..

.
lets get out facts straight.
1 you can build native units in native colony buildings
1b you cant build both hellenic colony and native militarization
2 in order to build native colony buildings you need native goverment (laarchia)
3 in laarchia you cant build any helenic units
4 so unless i am deaply mistaken no greek units
now i understand in some things maybe i am wrong because of lack of goverment guides

[Arjos]

As I've stated before what I meant for eastern was people east of Hellas. Native is a more suitable term. The confusion was due to the initial concept being a matter about colonisation in foreign countries by the Hellenistic polities, which incidently expanded eastwards...

The point of the current system is that you are always recruiting from the local population. However you now have the choice/power to implement cultural policies so to speak:

By building a native colony, you allow the locals to keep most of their customs, practices and laws. Thus they generally live as they always had, retaining, among other things, their native warfare...
In such a scenario you would bring your own soldiers to live among them, these in turn generation after generation would establish a new people, which however keeps intact more of the local customs...
You would not be able to recruit factional troops, because you had left political power to the locals and these keep on fighting in their own native manner...

While by building a hellenic colony, you are bringing veterans among the locals, with new laws and generally your own colonists wield political power...
This way you are attempting to acculturate the locals to your own ways. Your veterans train them to fight as your factionals would...

In the end the locals are always being recruited, even if you go with the hellenic colony in a sense your Hoplitai will be Illyrian men trained as such, who had abandoned their former language and culture: they have been thoroughly hellenised...

I hope you can see how much more accurate this is :)
I know a lot has changed and we are currently working on patches, new units and future releases. Eventually in the future guides will be in the fora and make everyone's life easier :D

[Antigonos Karchedonios]

No, I don't have any colonists, I don't own a Metropolis in this game (I've just got Massalia and Emporion, which have a Small Polis each).

I want to build a Hellenic military colony, but the only option is the aforementioned indigenous one. Didn't realise you need colony points for that. Shouldn't it still be on the building browser anyway?

I'm not sure if they do actually. I'll restart my paused Pergamon campaign and have a look after cheating to get Massalia.

[clone]

QUOTE=Arjos

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As I've stated before what I meant for eastern was people east of Hellas. Native is a more suitable term. The confusion was due to the initial concept being a matter about colonisation in foreign countries by the Hellenistic polities, which incidently expanded eastwards...

The point of the current system is that you are always recruiting from the local population. However you now have the choice/power to implement cultural policies so to speak:

By building a native colony, you allow the locals to keep most of their customs, practices and laws. Thus they generally live as they always had, retaining, among other things, their native warfare...
In such a scenario you would bring your own soldiers to live among them, these in turn generation after generation would establish a new people, which however keeps intact more of the local customs...
You would not be able to recruit factional troops, because you had left political power to the locals and these keep on fighting in their own native manner...

While by building a hellenic colony, you are bringing veterans among the locals, with new laws and generally your own colonists wield political power...
This way you are attempting to acculturate the locals to your own ways. Your veterans train them to fight as your factionals would...

In the end the locals are always being recruited, even if you go with the hellenic colony in a sense your Hoplitai will be Illyrian men trained as such, who had abandoned their former language and culture: they have been thoroughly hellenised...

I hope you can see how much more accurate this is :)
I know a lot has changed and we are currently working on patches, new units and future releases. Eventually in the future guides will be in the fora and make everyone's life easier :D

no i dont thing your explanation is too much historicall acurate.

1: you say that in order to sent hellenic collonists or recruit locally you have to give power either to the locals or to the hellenic collonist. that is wrong but even ifyou were right that doesnt change the fact that ptolemies(not only) could recruit both greeks and native troops in both alexandria and judea regardless if they favored the greeks
1b first hellenic collony means very few collonists . so why sending in a metropolis like rome 1000 or 5000 settlers make the city less roman or not being able to recruit local units
2 a city in eb doesnt represents only the the central city but also :suburbs,villages,farms, garrisons . why you cant have 5000 greeks in rome(living in the suburbs or in some farms) and rome still to be roman and supply you with local troops
3] still you exaplantion doesnt help the problem with epiros,this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

lets get out facts straight.
1 you can build native units in native colony buildings
1b you cant build both hellenic colony and native militarization
2 in order to build native colony buildings you need native goverment (laarchia)
3 in laarchia you cant build any helenic units
4 so unless i am deaply mistaken no greek units

i have a sugestion. the more collonist you sent the more you collonize and assimilate the place
1 have 4-5 lvl of both hellenic colonies and native ones
2 if you build lvl4 helenic colony you can also build lvl 1 native..this represents that there are many settlers in the city,some natives have been helenized but also some local stil exist and follow the old ways (more or less)
3 if you build lvl 3 hellenic colony you can build lvl2 native (and vise versa)
now i understand in some things maybe i am wrong because of lack of goverment guides

[Arjos]

Hellenic colony IS NOT native colony, you misunderstood everything...

Anyway this has become a trial of frustration, the language barrier is failing hard here...

To your point 2, yes it does and IF ONLY you understood what I'm telling you having an advanced hellenic government and being able to recruit both factionals and local troops is POSSIBLE in EBII...
To your point 3, of course you do not get Hellenic units where you build a native government: you have forfeited direct control...
Building the native colony is not exclusive to only native government...

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm not sure if they do actually. I'll restart my paused Pergamon campaign and have a look after cheating to get Massalia.

Someone said elsewhere that Epirote government buildings do change culture; mine is going up so something must be doing it.

[Antigonos Karchedonios]

So I just checked with a new Pergamon campaign (as Pergamon starts with a metropolis) and a lot of cheating to get Massalia and Nikaia in the first two turns. (Nikaia I needed to get rid of my colonist)

When a colonist is available, the option "Hellenistic Colonization" is visible in the Building browser:


Now if you do not have a colonist (I used the one from the start to build a polis in Nikaia) the option disappeared from the building browser:


I noticed the governement conversion as well. But when adding colonies it should work much faster... And i think it makes some sense to convert via governement too. There are always people who want to associate with the rulers...

[QuintusSertorius]

Ah, that explains why I haven't see it - no colony points. I think I will hit a brake on development of my government building, at least until I upgrade something to a Metropolis, because you need to have established a military colony to do the highest tiers.