POTUS Election thread

[Kralizec]

Some musing about recursion of negative assessments from the West to the third world:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...123725710.html

Without the palm trees, can a banana republic still occur?

"Banana republic" is just a term people use to mean a state run by thieves that only pay lip-service to the rule of law. Nobody uses the term to disparage south American countries. I'd wager that most people don't even know the real background of the term. People who have played Tropico know, of course.

The article you cited also seems to ignore that social media have frequently compared Trump to European dictators. Thanks to crafty wordsmiths, we now have terms like Cinnamon Hitler and Cheeto Benito.
If we're talking about more established media, comparisons like that are simply taboo. People elsewhere do not share our taboos, or our sensitivities to WW2 related issues. Likewise it's natural that we are not as sensitive regarding the black pages of far off places, either.

That is why comedians and pundits feel comfortable comparing Trump to African dictators or south American strongmen, rather than Hitler or Mussolini. Not some colonial mindset.

[Montmorency]

"Banana republic" is just a term people use to mean a state run by thieves that only pay lip-service to the rule of law. Nobody uses the term to disparage south American countries. I'd wager that most people don't even know the real background of the term. People who have played Tropico know, of course.

The article you cited also seems to ignore that social media have frequently compared Trump to European dictators. Thanks to crafty wordsmiths, we now have terms like Cinnamon Hitler and Cheeto Benito.
If we're talking about more established media, comparisons like that are simply taboo. People elsewhere do not share our taboos, or our sensitivities to WW2 related issues. Likewise it's natural that we are not as sensitive regarding the black pages of far off places, either.

That is why comedians and pundits feel comfortable comparing Trump to African dictators or south American strongmen, rather than Hitler or Mussolini. Not some colonial mindset.

Well, at least you did address the thesis of the piece itself. But I think the author meant that the fact some were referring to Trump in those terms at all - that is, even the existence of that term, to come to be used - requires assumptive colonial/imperial superiority. The author's a postmodernist, I suppose.

[Kralizec]

Well, at least you did address the thesis of the piece itself. But I think the author meant that the fact some were referring to Trump in those terms at all - that is, even the existence of that term, to come to be used - requires assumptive colonial/imperial superiority. The author's a postmodernist, I suppose.

I'm not sure it does, actually.

In brief: 'Banana republic' is inspired by some south American countries who's governements were heavily inluenced by fruit companies, most nobably Chiquita. I think most people just associate fruit with tropical countries, and because of that the name stuck far beyond it's historical period. Few people know the background of the term. They're just being crass, and I have no problems with that in itself (in fact, crass humour is the best in my opinion). And mainstream media keep using it because it's a pre-existing term with a widely understood definition; the one I mentioned earlier.

I assume that people in developing countries can be crass in their own way when they're talking about first world countries, in ways that we would consider inappropriate. It may or may not be deserved, but then again...the common people are crass, regardless of place or time. It's not something unique to former colonial powers. If somehow the people in the first world would stop doing it, it wouldn't matter one bit, unlike what the last paragraph in the article says.

[Montmorency]

"Banana republic" is just a term people use to mean a state run by thieves that only pay lip-service to the rule of law.

He's complaining about the fact that Westerners came up with such a term on the basis of those non-Western states.

Why is it, if someone from "the third world", a "banana republic", or a "palm-dotted tropical island" might be permitted to ask, that when the purveyors of the mighty and magnificent "Western civilisation" want to characterise something nasty and loathsome in their own midst they immediately opt for a metaphor, a pejorative term such as "banana republic" that they have invented for somewhere else?

Latin American countries have been systematically colonised and abused, first by Europe and now by the United States, robbing them of their resources and installing a tyrant over the people lest they revolt against the abuse. And yet the very same abusers get to use a sarcastic term to describe the result!

Pretty clearly has nothing to do with crassness in the view of the author, but the etymology itself. It's not uncommon for semiotics dudes to make such arguments from etymology, so it shouldn't fly over you here.

[Greyblades]

He needs to get laid, and/or a better job.

[HopAlongBunny]

He's complaining about the fact that Westerners came up with such a term on the basis of those non-Western states.

It is also a matter of some irony that the term was used as a derogation of the states with bananas, and not used to refer to the state(s) which would wage war (usually undeclared) on behalf of those plantations

[Montmorency]

"Commodity-oriented oligarchy"?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It is also a matter of some irony that the term was used as a derogation of the states with bananas, and not used to refer to the state(s) which would wage war (usually undeclared) on behalf of those plantations

Despite Smedley Butler's famous quotation, American intervention and constabulary efforts tended to occur more in states where US economic involvement was less pronounced. I've always assumed it was his inability to play organizational politics that had him end up on a bitter note. He should have been commanding the brigade at Belleau Wood and should have been commandant. Great war-fighter; lousy peacetime general.

[HopAlongBunny]

I did not know Smedley Butler had anything to do with it.
Rather a survey of the history of the United Fruit Company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

With a board of directors that is a who's who of the politically powerful in Washington, efforts on behalf of the company became a template for destabilization, overthrow and elimination of populist elements in South and Central America.
Of course, all of the actions had the proper nods to eliminating the "Red Menace" and stopping Communism.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v44i5a03p.htm

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I did not know Smedley Butler had anything to do with it.
Rather a survey of the history of the United Fruit Company:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fruit_Company

With a board of directors that is a who's who of the politically powerful in Washington, efforts on behalf of the company became a template for destabilization, overthrow and elimination of populist elements in South and Central America.
Of course, all of the actions had the proper nods to eliminating the "Red Menace" and stopping Communism.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f.../v44i5a03p.htm

It's been over-hyped -- in part by a bitter Butler. While there were interventions, most of the interventions were in those countries where US economic interests were less prevalent. Not that United Fruit didn't throw its weight around with bribes and leverage, just that the military interventions were less of an economic project than is stereotypically conceived.

[Husar]

So what I didn't know about the Carrier "deal" yet, was that the investment they're going to make is actually aimed at replacing quite a few of the "saved jobs" with robots. Sound like everyone made a big deal out of Trump "saving" 100 or 200 jobs for a few years. Let's hope they buy the robots from Germany or China.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...6146?cid=sm_tw

[Greyblades]

[Husar]

When Fjodor Kalinkov of Nashni Taksiya refuels his car at 8am in the morning, Putin is personally involved, because Russia.

What's really funny about Trump is this:

I've been saying it's a rigged system, but now I won, so I don't say it anymore...

[CrossLOPER]

When Fjodor Kalinkov of Nashni Taksiya refuels his car at 8am in the morning, Putin is personally involved, because Russia.

What's really funny about Trump is this:

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but at least it's not Hillary.

[Husar]

Oh yeah, Rex Tillerson is a B-Movie villain: https://thecapturedproject.com/exxonmobil

You can scroll down to see the crimes of the painter and the painted.
Upper left corner has an X to close the page and get to the index of all paintings, basically someone asked prisoners to paint people who should be in prison, it's not really Trump-related, I just found Tillerson in there.

[Greyblades]

B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-but at least it's not Hillary.

Wew lad

[Husar]

Salt is about as substantial a point as the ones Trump made during his campaign.
And it seems to be all his supporters are talking about now, I saw plenty of youtube comments about it, too.

To some extent it feels like I'M in a Dr Who episode and some alien device made people crave salt and vote for the alien scam artist to prepare their invasion.
It is very entertaining though.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Was speaking with the wife last night about the upcoming political change, we found that we have to agree with one key claim made by the Trump and his team. For the first time in a long time, we will have a total outsider who is NOT part of the political elite stepping onto the political scene in the top job.

Both of us place some value on occasionally shaking up the system and forcing it out of a rut....but neither of us voted for this fellow and we are REALLY unsure if he will measure up tp the office. We both hope that he will -- in the sense that we want things to go well for our country -- but we have our doubts.


The last time we had somebody take office who was so in-versed in the political system and not at all groomed to be part of the political leadership was, I think, Ulysses Grant. Grant, prior to earning high command part way through our Civil War, was a shopkeeper (and according to some a drunk). He functioned as a politician only during the brief period of the Johnson Presidency (politics were different then, as there was no campaigning per se, but he did make a number of decisions as commanding General that were done to position himself as "the choice" for the party when the time came.

Grant then went on to preside over the most graft-ridden and corrupt administration in US history. He was never quite as "on top of" the political games as he was cool and collected on a battlefield.

I worry, of course, that Trump may be similarly unprepared to handle the power games of DC.

[Husar]

Was speaking with the wife last night about the upcoming political change, we found that we have to agree with one key claim made by the Trump and his team. For the first time in a long time, we will have a total outsider who is NOT part of the political elite stepping onto the political scene in the top job.

The problem I see with that is that his cabinet is made up out of people who typically pay lobbyists to influence politics for them. It's a bit like he drained the swamp by calling the toads to his cabinet, basically just cutting out the middle man.
For an outsider, I'd rather have elected Joe the plumber who volunteered for the red cross once rather than anyone whose personal wealth is above middle class levels and who prefers personal success and wealth over everything else...

[Gilrandir]

For an outsider, I'd rather have elected Joe the plumber who volunteered for the red cross once

Do you know any countries where such people are elected?

[Husar]

Do you know any countries where such people are elected?

Iran?
Russia?

Weren't Ahmadinejad and Putin "farm boys"? Although I suppose they both never volunteered for a good cause. Neither did I, but then again I don't aim to run a country like they do either...
It's well-documented that populations tend to elect psychopaths in general because most people tend to think strength is important for a leader and so on. Even the CEOs of corporations often have lots of psychopathic traits if they're not outright psychopaths in the first place. I'm basically saying that the biggest mistake of "Hourse of Cards" is to make some of the other politicians look like they're not psychopaths, might make it more realistic otherwise.

The fault lies with those who vote them to the top though, they have their priorities wrong, support them to gain more themselves and end up getting lied to. Now I can see how that can happen, but it seems to happen to a lot of people again and again every 4 or 5 years...

Humanity just isn't what Hollywood and some poets would like to make us believe, we're all rotten to the core and should be ashamed of ourselves or just accept that like a cancer, we're going to kill our host and finally ourselves with it.

[Greyblades]

You sulk like a reconstruction era american southerner.

[CrossLOPER]

You sulk like a reconstruction era american southerner.

A reconstruction is actually not at all a bad idea. People have been left behind, but it is mostly their own doing. I think this article is a fairly good analysis of what was going through the minds of people who are essentially doomed by change because of their unwillingness to adapt.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/17/op...t-walmart.html

I think the next four years will continue to see a yawning gap that is the division in the world. It's all down to economics. Those that didn't prosper simply could not prosper, so they chose to hold on to a tiny shred of hope that someone will shove them back into the coal mines and factories. It would be like wishing for the days of the dot com bubble. It is hopeless.

[Gilrandir]

Iran?
Russia?

Weren't Ahmadinejad and Putin "farm boys"?

Can't say anything for Iran's president, but Putin was (and is) a KGB boy the latter being a springboard to his future political career. Somehow being a "uniform boy" doesn't fit into my image of a farm boy.

[Husar]

Can't say anything for Iran's president, but Putin was (and is) a KGB boy the latter being a springboard to his future political career. Somehow being a "uniform boy" doesn't fit into my image of a farm boy.

Apparently he came from what we'd call a working or middle class family with the father having been in the NKVD.
He certainly seems to go with the image of being more of a "normal Joe"*, or what are these nature photos all about?
There were probably others I'm not aware of.

*I'm aware his name is not actually Joe...

[Gilrandir]

Apparently he came from what we'd call a working or middle class family with the father having been in the NKVD.

Once a person becomes a KGB employee he moves away from working/middle class background. Being in secret services opens new vistas and grants totally differnt opportunities and weight. That is in the former USSR countries.

[HopAlongBunny]

If the latest election cycle is any indication, get ready for fantasy claims about science:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...laims-of-2016/

[a completely inoffensive name]

This may as well be the time for me to jump into local politics.

In 15-20 years, I can be the next Democratic nominee. Cuz they got fuck all in terms of candidates.

Likely they are going to poach from California another inexperienced Senator or a gay governor.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This may as well be the time for me to jump into local politics.

In 15-20 years, I can be the next Democratic nominee. Cuz they got fuck all in terms of candidates.

Likely they are going to poach from California another inexperienced Senator or a gay governor.

They really have a gap in leadership with something resembling national stature and of the prime age. Corey Booker in a few years perhaps. Or maybe the other half of the Obamas -- she certainly could hold even with Hillary's performance for sure. So, YES, ACIN, you do have a shot.