IMMIGRATION thread

[Husar]

but but but... that changes everything! Suddenly there is no more an uncontrollable influx of people there simply is no future for. It's better if they know that prior to trying, for everybody.

Why can every country on earth have people with no future but we can't?

[Fragony]

Why can every country on earth have people with no future but we can't?

Because we could but won't? Isn't it a bit cruel to give false hope in the end. We both know that it was a bad idea comming here, everything they once had is useless here, a Syrian brain-surgeon who lost everything is still going to be sleeping in one of the hundreds of beds in a gym. All we can do is mob it up and throw it in a bucket in the end, we can't provide what they think we can.

[Greyblades]

...really? Is the syrian standards of of brain surgery outdated or something?

[Husar]

Because we could but won't? Isn't it a bit cruel to give false hope in the end.

What false hope? If they actually flee from a war we offer them a chance to get a life here. I'm not aware anyone from here offered them much more.

We both know that it was a bad idea comming here, everything they once had is useless here, a Syrian brain-surgeon who lost everything is still going to be sleeping in one of the hundreds of beds in a gym. All we can do is mob it up and throw it in a bucket in the end, we can't provide what they think we can.

Now you're confusing what is achievable in the short term and what is achievable in the long term. A brain surgeon can get a job here in the long term. Other people can't, there was a story of an Afghan who hoped to get a better job here but was disappointed and left again. The German government now pays the Afghan government to advertise their own country so fewer people come here. The thing is that when people have no hope in their own country, they usually look elsewhere, it is not new and merely human nature, nothing we can do.

[Fragony]

Of course people have always looked for better places, but the current situation is different, they come here en-masse because the childless mutti invited them here. There is no precedent to this. The brain-surgeon was sarcasm most migrants have little to no education at al. Almost all young men who have no hope of getting a job or a woman, bound to get frustrated. That's the long-term

[Snowhobbit]

...really? Is the syrian standards of of brain surgery outdated or something?

No, but the German bureaucracy is overworked beyond reason, and before you get to do brain surgery you probably have to verify your education and experience etc. I would guess it takes 2-3 years until he is anywhere close to where he would want to be.

[Gaius Sempronius Gracchus]

Of course people have always looked for better places, but the current situation is different, they come here en-masse because the childless mutti invited them here. There is no precedent to this. The brain-surgeon was sarcasm most migrants have little to no education at al. Almost all young men who have no hope of getting a job or a woman, bound to get frustrated. That's the long-term

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

[Shaka_Khan]

Why is it the EUs responsibility help the migrants?

The EU didn't tell them to come. The migrants chose the EU because the European OECD countries are the closest OECD countries.

[Fragony]

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

I understand what she said in another interview, she wants to show the world that Germany has changed and have learned from itls nazi-past, she is insane and is dragging Europe into her maelström of insanity. Any psycholigist would agree that it is very relevant that she's barren, and that she has a messias-complex. The only place she ought to be is in a padded cell strapped itn a selfhugsuit.

[Beskar]

I saw this and thought of you, Frags.

[Greyblades]

That is surprisingly apt.

[Snowhobbit]

You don't think that the movement "en-masse" has rather more to do with the places they used to live being bombed into oblivion? You understand that whatever Merkel said, that leads to you referring to her with such misogynistic flourish, was a reaction to a situation of the movements of people en-masse....so they were already moving.

Neither Africa nor Pakistan is being bombed "en-masse", and though Turkey has had an increase in terror bombings to my knowledge they have not targeted refugee camps. But I know you don't like facts, so don't worry too much.

[Fragony]

lol http://www.geenstijl.nl/archives/images/02duitsland.jpg

[Sir Moody]

Neither Africa nor Pakistan is being bombed "en-masse", and though Turkey has had an increase in terror bombings to my knowledge they have not targeted refugee camps. But I know you don't like facts, so don't worry too much.

... what

This spectacular display of ignorance forced me out of self imposed lurking.

There are currently 2 Major conflicts raging in North Africa (the South Sudan Civil war and the Boko Harem insurgency) and numerous smaller conflicts including the ever worsening situation in Libya and the Somali civil war which has been on and off again since 1991).

On the Pakistan front there is open fighting with the Taliban and constant US drone bombing along with an increase in repression of Pakistan's Christian minority (including several death sentences for "heresy" and numerous cases of lynchings)

Honestly he is entirely right - what the German Government did was neither here no there - the refugees were already on the move and en-route - Germany was left with only had 2 choices, welcome them or close the borders.

The current situation on the Greek/Serbian border should show how option 2 was never a good plan.

[Snowhobbit]

... what

This spectacular display of ignorance forced me out of self imposed lurking.

There are currently 2 Major conflicts raging in North Africa (the South Sudan Civil war and the Boko Harem insurgency) and numerous smaller conflicts including the ever worsening situation in Libya and the Somali civil war which has been on and off again since 1991).

On the Pakistan front there is open fighting with the Taliban and constant US drone bombing along with an increase in repression of Pakistan's Christian minority (including several death sentences for "heresy" and numerous cases of lynchings)

Honestly he is entirely right - what the German Government did was neither here no there - the refugees were already on the move and en-route - Germany was left with only had 2 choices, welcome them or close the borders.

The current situation on the Greek/Serbian border should show how option 2 was never a good plan.

Oh yes, I forgot how the drones are carpetbombing cities which causes the population to have to flee all the way to Europe. The Somali civil war only affects half the country and the people in the unsafe half can then easily travel to the safe half. Did you know that India recently due to community rioting had over 2 million citizens being internally displaced refugees? How many of those fled to Europe again?
And do go on explaining how those conflicts result in people fleeing from Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. A large quantity of the people trying to enter Europe are opportunistic fortune seekers. Which is not an inherently bad thing, but lets not label them as refugees and spend all of our money babying them while we leave the actual refugee camps underfunded.

[Sir Moody]

Oh yes, I forgot how the drones are carpetbombing cities which causes the population to have to flee all the way to Europe. The Somali civil war only affects half the country and the people in the unsafe half can then easily travel to the safe half. Did you know that India recently due to community rioting had over 2 million citizens being internally displaced refugees? How many of those fled to Europe again?
And do go on explaining how those conflicts result in people fleeing from Eritrea, Ethiopia etc. A large quantity of the people trying to enter Europe are opportunistic fortune seekers. Which is not an inherently bad thing, but lets not label them as refugees and spend all of our money babying them while we leave the actual refugee camps underfunded.

While I don't know of any current problems in Eritrea, Ethiopia has suffered a massive drought and there are heightened fears there will be another mass starvation event.

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

[Snowhobbit]

While I don't know of any current problems in Eritrea, Ethiopia has suffered a massive drought and there are heightened fears there will be another mass starvation event.

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

So which bomb campaign caused the drought? And is a suitable response to a drought to flee across thousands of miles and a sea? Or are there more sane solutions to that problem?

I don't see you lining up to house refugees and finance their upkeep. Calling a spade a spade is not belittling.

[Fragony]

Just because you don't know about a conflict/crisis or deem it "insignificant" doesn't mean there are not people fleeing for their lives - don't belittle them.

They may have a good reason to run for their lifes, but not to travel any further once they are safe. Why shouldn't we call those that do fortune-seekers? Aid for direct releave is pretty managable to give.

Elaborating, we all know that Europe produces too much and dumps it in Africa, it keeps them poor as they can't compete with free goods. So use development-money to buy the surplus up instead and just give it to them. No more reason to take a very dangerous trip to a future that does not exist.
Would also benefit the locals as the migrants won't have to pay the rediculous prices human-smugglers ask. Aid done different and more effective imho.

[Snowhobbit]

They may have a good reason to run for their lifes, but not to travel any further once they are safe. Why shouldn't we call those that do fortune-seekers? Aid for direct releave is pretty managable to give.

Elaborating, we all know that Europe produces too much and dumps it in Africa, it keeps them poor as they can't compete with free goods. So use development-money to buy the surplus up instead and just give it to them. No more reason to take a very dangerous trip to a future that does not exist.
Would also benefit the locals as the migrants won't have to pay the rediculous prices human-smugglers ask. Aid done different and more effective imho.

Doing aid in that way would ensure that any industry involved in the production or sales of the goods given away would collapse, resulting in more poverty. It is a great way to make sure that more people find that the best option in their mind is to risk their lives "fleeing" to a richer country. Not sure that is what you would like to happen.

[Fragony]

Doing aid in that way would ensure that any industry involved in the production or sales of the goods given away would collapse, resulting in more poverty. It is a great way to make sure that more people find that the best option in their mind is to risk their lives "fleeing" to a richer country. Not sure that is what you would like to happen.

You are probably right, I got no argument against that. But if we do it that way AND make trying to get to Europe a worse option it might be a win-win situation. Naturally not for everybody. It's a musing, not an argument to just give direct aid with surplusses. Of course it will only hurt on the long-term and isn't a solution at all. But it's at least more pragmatic imho

[Snowhobbit]

You are probably right, I got no argument against that. But if we do it that way AND make trying to get to Europe a worse option it might be a win-win situation. Naturally not for everybody. It's a musing, not an argument to just give direct aid with surplusses. Of course it will only hurt on the long-term and isn't a solution at all. But it's at least more pragmatic imho

A better way would be to send food aid only in the case of famines, and otherwise try to keep to digging wells, building schools etc. Provide money and assistance to good governance NGOs. The only long term solution is to help the regions filled with poverty to grow out of that poverty. Your solution is a short term destruction of their economies and long term a flood of refugees and economics migrants on a scale hardly imaginable. At which point we will either see violence on a horrific scale to "defend the borders" or the slow death of Europe as we know it. Now me I think that sounds like a bad future and not something we should work towards.

[Fragony]

A better way would be to send food aid only in the case of famines, and otherwise try to keep to digging wells, building schools etc. Provide money and assistance to good governance NGOs. The only long term solution is to help the regions filled with poverty to grow out of that poverty. Your solution is a short term destruction of their economies and long term a flood of refugees and economics migrants on a scale hardly imaginable. At which point we will either see violence on a horrific scale to "defend the borders" or the slow death of Europe as we know it. Now me I think that sounds like a bad future and not something we should work towards.

I don't even disagree with you but first things first, a total lockdown of European borders, and giving aid to those affected by regional problems. I find it kinda silly that we are making deals with Turkey the problems there don't belong in our sphere, it's their region not ours, we can help but it's not our problem. Same for Africa, not our sphere either, nor our obligation. Helping in the short term is good enough for now imho. Emergency supplies, medicine, food. Long-term is a much bigger question that can be asked, but why ask it really, it's not our mess. We would have to become some sort of creepy light jedi's to fix it all.

[Husar]

EU and Turkey reach an agreement!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35840272

Under the plan, from midnight Sunday migrants arriving in Greece will be sent back to Turkey if their asylum claim is rejected.
In return, EU countries will resettle Syrian migrants living in Turkey.

Does anyone want to place bets how long it will take until Turkey distributes Syrian passports to the people we send back?

[Snowhobbit]

EU and Turkey reach an agreement!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35840272



Does anyone want to place bets how long it will take until Turkey distributes Syrian passports to the people we send back?

Using the ISIS printing press I presume?

[Fragony]

Everybody with half a braincell can understand why this isn't a deal at all. We don't know how they got into Greece so Turkey won't take them back. It's a joke.

[Beskar]

Syrians have teleport technology funded by Russian scientists, so Bashar can send dissents enmass to the sunny beaches of Greece.

[Lizardo]

They are not Refugees just country shoppers looking for the best welfare package on offer. The real refugees are the Yazidis and Religious Minorities etc.

[Gilrandir]

It would be good if someone wondered who Starikov is and what the grounds are for calling him a "top Russian writer".

[Lizardo]

OH your from Ukraine and may have lapped up the Anti Russian Propaganda. Your statement doesnt make sense who wonders ok if it's you search him up yourself hes a prominent political analyst in Russia featured in many programmes and Debates. Who cares who he is what he states is near enough spot on barring a couple of discretions i think.

[Gilrandir]

OH your from Ukraine and may have lapped up the Anti Russian Propaganda.

Oh, I don't know where you are from, yet I marvel that you deem yourself free from the influence of any other propaganda, including the pro-russian one.

Your statement doesnt make sense who wonders ok if it's you search him up yourself hes a prominent political analyst in Russia featured in many programmes and Debates. Who cares who he is what he states is near enough spot on barring a couple of discretions i think.

Who/what a person is always has a bearing on what he says and thinks. Being exposed to Russian media I know enough of him and could have linked to some articles by him and about him, but unfortunately they are all in Russian. His political stance can be summarized by the title of his 2008 book: "Russia's archenemy: All evil comes from the West". He attributes all problems Russia has or had to constant and unceasing attempts of the West to destroy it. He is one of the main apologists of current Russian regime and of some of the previous ones - including Stalin. He propagates his stance at all programmes and debates. But if you are inclined to harken to him, well,