Brexit Thread

[Pannonian]

I suspect that this will be like Iraq, Syria, Libya, in that I can see the plain idiocy of what's being decided, but we decide to walk straight into it anyway. And we'll be left to regret the decision for years after, while I shake my head and wonder what got into our heads, as we complain about "if we'd only known in hindsight", which I could see every step of the way.

[Lizardo]

Only anecdotal but rather revealing.

LOL i wonder why the guardian blocked it? keep it hush hush. it's fair use i presume the uploader wasnt monetising his videos?

[Elmetiacos]

I'm only guessing, but I suspect it may have been on copyright grounds, the reason being that the message says, "...content from The Guardian, who has blocked it on copyright grounds."

[Greyblades]

Considering what that excuse has been used to do over the last 10 years on youtube it is safe to say that the Guardian is interested in copyright the same way China is.

I suspect that this will be like Iraq, Syria, Libya, in that I can see the plain idiocy of what's being decided, but we decide to walk straight into it anyway. And we'll be left to regret the decision for years after, while I shake my head and wonder what got into our heads, as we complain about "if we'd only known in hindsight", which I could see every step of the way.

Funny, I thought we didnt walk into syria, and now we're regretting it.

The EU is stagnant, fragile and in decline, we're in for hard times either way, brexit gives us back our border controls, saves us 8.5 billion a year and makes both Brussels and our own political parties, who have botrh screwed us in favour of the european project and/or themselves for the last 15-20/80 years, begin shitting themselves in panic.

[Elmetiacos]

The EU is stagnant, fragile and in decline, we're in for hard times either way, brexit gives us back our border controls, saves us 8.5 billion a year and gives us revenge on both political parties who have screwed us in favour of the european project for the last 15-20 years.

There will still be a Conservative government after the referendum, just one that will lurch to the right. As for "our" border controls, if that Conservative government really did think immigration was too high, was "out of control" then why did they let in another 188,000 non-EU immigrants? There is no way that the arch-free market politicians who are poised to take over from Cameron and Osborne would want to cut off a ready supply of cheap, wage suppressing labour. One of two things will happen: either, bearing in mind around two thirds of MPs don't want to leave the European Economic Area, we will still have free movement anyway and we've given up our votes and vetoes for fringe benefits, or we leave and immigration is just diverted from coming from Eastern Europe to coming from Asia and Africa, which being more visible and more liable to rhetoric about Islamisation, will result in those who wanted to reduce immigration moving from irrelevant UKIP to people with an inordinate fondness for torchlit parades and marching tunes. Nastiness ensues.

[Greyblades]

Even if we take that as true (which is simultaniously extremely cynical for the country and optimistic for the conservatives chances to remain intact/power past 2020) I see little difference between the two in terms of doom save for the fact that brexit gives us a chance, for in the EU we are at the whims of those to which we have no influence at all and who most certainly do not have our interests even close to their own.

[Pannonian]

Soddit.

[Pannonian]

There will still be a Conservative government after the referendum, just one that will lurch to the right. As for "our" border controls, if that Conservative government really did think immigration was too high, was "out of control" then why did they let in another 188,000 non-EU immigrants? There is no way that the arch-free market politicians who are poised to take over from Cameron and Osborne would want to cut off a ready supply of cheap, wage suppressing labour. One of two things will happen: either, bearing in mind around two thirds of MPs don't want to leave the European Economic Area, we will still have free movement anyway and we've given up our votes and vetoes for fringe benefits, or we leave and immigration is just diverted from coming from Eastern Europe to coming from Asia and Africa, which being more visible and more liable to rhetoric about Islamisation, will result in those who wanted to reduce immigration moving from irrelevant UKIP to people with an inordinate fondness for torchlit parades and marching tunes. Nastiness ensues.

Personally, I don't mind immigration from within the EU. Europe's population is at least mostly culturally akin to us, and they adapt readily enough in my experience, and they want to identify themselves as British. It's immigrants who don't want to integrate (or at least their descendants), who want to change Britain to be like where they've come from, that I don't want.

[Greyblades]

The Commonwealth is filled with people who are more culturally akin to us and in some cases already identify as British to a small historical degree, but because of the EU we have to shun most of them in favour of a political block that is increasingly beginning to include the peoples you describe who dont want to integrate and want to change thier host nation.

[Pannonian]

The Commonwealth is filled with people who are more culturally akin to us and in some cases already identify as British to a small historical degree, but because of the EU we have to shun most of them in favour of a political block that is increasingly beginning to include the peoples you describe who dont want to integrate and want to change thier host nation.

Most of our troublemakers are from the Commonwealth (Pakistan).

[Greyblades]

As I said: "beginning", give it time; as turkey is let in and the migrants german has invited are made citizens and you will see an upswing in less than cooperative applicants, and we will be legally powerless to refuse them.

[Pannonian]

As I said: "beginning", give it time; as turkey is let in and the migrants german has invited are made citizens and you will see an upswing in less than cooperative applicants, and we will be legally powerless to refuse them.

Wasn't the UK the chief lobbier for the expansion of the EU to include Turkey? AFAIK we were the chief driver to include eastern Europe.

[Greyblades]

Hence why I said i wanted to "make both Brussels and our own political parties, who have both screwed us in favour of the european project and/or themselves for the last 15-20/80 years, begin shitting themselves in panic."

I dont like our politicians, I do like how we have the option twice a decade of kicking them to the curb when they piss us off, that is more precious to me than a hundred dreams of a United Europe.

Depriving them of a retirement plan is good too.

[Pannonian]

Hence why I said i wanted to "make both Brussels and our own political parties, who have both screwed us in favour of the european project and/or themselves for the last 15-20/80 years, begin shitting themselves in panic."

I dont like our politicians, I do like how we have the option twice a decade of kicking them to the curb when they piss us off, that is more precious to me than a hundred dreams of a United Europe.

Depriving them of a retirement plan is good too.

All painfully reminiscent of the arguments during the Scottish referendum, when the Scots were disgruntled over how they have little to no influence over the government they get in Westminster, as later further demonstrated in the 2015 GE. The Scots looked at the economic arguments and decided that spiting the English wasn't worth economically shooting themselves in the foot. It looks like we're going to decide otherwise with the EU.

[Greyblades]

The English and the Scots have a 300 year history of nearly unparalleled success and occasionally even friendship tieing us together and they were economically incapable of surviving alone. The British and the EU are tied together by a 45 year history of decline, bitterness, subversion and occasional naked contempt for eachother, and we can most certainly survive alone.

And the foot's blown either way, either dramatically now or in a quieter 10 year decline.

[Elmetiacos]

Hence why I said i wanted to "make both Brussels and our own political parties, who have both screwed us in favour of the european project and/or themselves for the last 15-20/80 years, begin shitting themselves in panic."

I dont like our politicians, I do like how we have the option twice a decade of kicking them to the curb when they piss us off, that is more precious to me than a hundred dreams of a United Europe.

Depriving them of a retirement plan is good too.

It's not as if all the politicians speak with one voice... voting a triumph for those well known anti-establishment mavericks Boris Johnson (Eton and Balliol, former Spectator editor, descendant of the Hannoverian royal family) Michael Gove (Oxford Union President, ex-BBC, chief toady to House Murdoch) not to mention privately educated former commodities broker Farrage, is only swapping one gang for a crazier one.

[Greyblades]

An unbroken horse is better than one made lame.

They arent crazier, thats rather the point: the worst thing that happens is Boris gets in power and turns out to be Cameron 2.0, maybe he's exactly what we need to weather the storm, maybe he wont get in power at all as this is poised to end any semblence of coheisivness the Tories have.

We have the option to remove a Cameron 2.0 and undo what he does, we don't have that option with the EU comission, not in a peaceful manner anyway. And with the comission hanging around his neck Cameron 1.0 or anyone else in power is limited in what they are capable of changing to make things better, even if they want to.

[Gilrandir]

There will still be a Conservative government after the referendum, just one that will lurch to the right. As for "our" border controls, if that Conservative government really did think immigration was too high, was "out of control" then why did they let in another 188,000 non-EU immigrants? There is no way that the arch-free market politicians who are poised to take over from Cameron and Osborne would want to cut off a ready supply of cheap, wage suppressing labour.

So after Brexit you'll make another Brenter, and then yet another Brexit. Thus moving in and out you will bargain ever more advantageous conditions. So in a decade or so your shuttle policy will get into history books as a paragon of promoting national interest.

The English and the Scots have a 300 year history of nearly unparalleled success and occasionally even friendship tieing us together and they were economically incapable of surviving alone. The British and the EU are tied together by a 45 year history of decline, bitterness, subversion and occasional naked contempt for eachother, and we can most certainly survive alone.

Those emotions you find in the EU-UK relations were never absent from England-Scotland realtions either, and the deeper we go into history, the more controversial they were.

[Greyblades]

That depends if you make a differentiation between high and lowlanders and why I said occasionally even friendship, point being england and scotland relations have had thier highs and lows, (the highs usually coinciding with beating up the french) whereas the EU has just been lows and plateaus of ambivilence.

[InsaneApache]

Remainiacs, the gift that just keeps on giving.

After the 'emergency' budget was trashed this morning we have 'St' Bob Geldof sticking two fingers up to working class fishermen worried about their jobs and calls 'em wankers.

Keep it up lads. A multi-millionaire shitting on the little people.

[Gilrandir]

I said occasionally even friendship,

I like it. Two peoples have lived in one country for 400 years and have developed only "occasional friendship". Way to go!

england and scotland relations have had thier highs and lows, (the highs usually coinciding with beating up the french)

Who was beating up the French? Certainly not the Scots - they have their Auld Alliance to revere, so relations between England and Scotland were not friendly at times of English-French wars, notably the Hundred Years War. Unless by "high relations" you mean hostilities.

whereas the EU has just been lows and plateaus of ambivilence.

An arbitrary statement. To my mind, the UK is the most special among the EU states and Cameron managed to negotiate even more concessions from the EU.

[InsaneApache]

Two peoples have lived in one country for 400 years

I think you'll find it's four.

[Greyblades]

I like it. Two peoples have lived in one country for 400 years and have developed only "occasional friendship". Way to go!

Considering that before we became one country we were constantly invading and massacring eachother for giggles, a long term tolerance and occasional friendship is outright loving in comparison. I was also being somewhat facetious, before the scottish independance referendum we havent had a major falling out since the jacobites in the 1700's and that was more a Scottish civil war which the English took the side of the Protestant Lowlanders against the Catholic Highlanders

Who was beating up the French? Certainly not the Scots - they have their Auld Alliance to revere, so relations between England and Scotland were not friendly at times of English-French wars, notably the Hundred Years War. Unless by "high relations" you mean hostilities.

...dude, go look up how many times we have fought the french, we've done it a lot, even after the 1707 act of union. Scratch that, especially after the 1707 act of union.

The Auld alliance ended in the 1500's.

An arbitrary statement. To my mind, the UK is the most special among the EU states and Cameron managed to negotiate even more concessions from the EU.

That would be if you consider the EU as a pact intended to create a federal government, when we joined it was with the understanding it was a free trade agreement and nothing more and with that context it becomes clear that we have been imposed upon incessantly.

[Furunculus]

Leave.

It's a constitutional thing.

I consider 'us' to be the people of the UK, and so i am willing to submit to common governance derived from the will of those people.

Economics isn't really a consideration, yes there will be a short term hit, but a low regulation low tax britain will grow faster long term.
Immigration isn't really an issue, to the limited degree that i care it is because we actively discriminate against commonwealth countries.

What i care about is:
Fiscal policy - low and simple tax.
Regulation - low and straightforward.
Foreign policy - we decide when to spill blood and treasure
Law and justice - the supremacy of parliament, and a supreme court that acts only to make sure parliament acts within its own laws

The EU is institutionally incapable of decisive action, it is unfit for purpose, and even if it was i'm unsure i'd like what decisive action they would take:
More complex tax
More byzantine regulation
Less interventionist FP, and less interest in Defence
Less emphasis on Common Law and more on statute adjudicated by the ECJ

[Elmetiacos]

Remainiacs, the gift that just keeps on giving.
After the 'emergency' budget was trashed this morning we have 'St' Bob Geldof sticking two fingers up to working class fishermen worried about their jobs and calls 'em wankers.
Keep it up lads. A multi-millionaire shitting on the little people.

Quoting from Chairman Farrage's Little Red Book... we all know what a class warrior Farrage is don't we, and how much he's always hated the millionaires and stood up for his fellow workers, just like the rest of that bastion of true Socialism, UKIP. The Brexiteers would be taking Orwellian doublethink to new heights - except of course, that we know they don't mean half of it. Sir Bob pointed out that despite being on the EU Fisheries Committee, Farrage attended one out of 43 of its meetings.

[Furunculus]

Quoting from Chairman Farrage's Little Red Book... we all know what a class warrior Farrage is don't we, and how much he's always hated the millionaires and stood up for his fellow workers, just like the rest of that bastion of true Socialism, UKIP. The Brexiteers would be taking Orwellian doublethink to new heights - except of course, that we know they don't mean half of it. Sir Bob pointed out that despite being on the EU Fisheries Committee, Farrage attended one out of 43 of its meetings.

not all of us brexiteers are ukip people, or, think very highly of nigel's tactics. ;)

[InsaneApache]

Socialists are mentally ill.

[Kralizec]

Wasn't the UK the chief lobbier for the expansion of the EU to include Turkey? AFAIK we were the chief driver to include eastern Europe.

Yes, that is correct. France, the Netherlands and several other countries postponed the free movement of those "new EU workers" for several years, which was allowed at the time under EU law. Britain voluntarily decided against these measures and instantly became the favourite destination.
Since that happened during Tony Blair's run as Prime Minister and seeing as how he is widely disliked nowadays, this is of course no obstacle for Brexiteers to blame Brussels for everything.

Some people also need to educate themselves on the difference between a Visum and the ability to migrate somewhere...and the fact that for the UK it doesn't matter one toss to whom the EU offers a visum, because it's only valid for the Schengen area.

[Pannonian]

Yes, that is correct. France, the Netherlands and several other countries postponed the free movement of those "new EU workers" for several years, which was allowed at the time under EU law. Britain voluntarily decided against these measures and instantly became the favourite destination.
Since that happened during Tony Blair's run as Prime Minister and seeing as how he is widely disliked nowadays, this is of course no obstacle for Brexiteers to blame Brussels for everything.

Some people also need to educate themselves on the difference between a Visum and the ability to migrate somewhere...and the fact that for the UK it doesn't matter one toss to whom the EU offers a visum, because it's only valid for the Schengen area.

That's what I thought, that the we'd opted out of the free movement rule, that any such free movement was decided by the Downing Street government rather than by Brussels. But as Greyblades explained in an earlier post, his intention is to stick it to all politicians by means of Brexit, so it doesn't matter whether something Brexiters dislike is decided by Brussels or Downing Street; everything that is bad is blamed on membership of the EU.

[Husar]

Socialists are mentally ill.

It's just depressing to see you write such unfounded, offensive blanket statements...