EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Fragony]

Can't find anything, got some pointers?

[Pannonian]

Can't find anything, got some pointers?

The US government has imposed 200%+ tariffs on a Canadian company that employs thousands in the UK, whose jobs will be at risk should the tariffs remain. May asked Trump, in the light of this, to relax things a bit. Trump refused. In the past the EU would retaliate on the UK's behalf with tariffs of its own on US imports until the US backs down. That's not going to happen any more, so the UK has to suck it up. So much for advantageous trade deals with the rest of the world waiting for us in the post-EU world.

[Fragony]

Things are never clean and easy for everybody (not trying to bagatilise it)

[Pannonian]

Things are never clean and easy for everybody (not trying to bagatilise it)

Well, it's clean and easy for you over in Dutchland, urging us to jump off that cliff edge.

[Fragony]

Well, it's clean and easy for you over in Dutchland, urging us to jump off that cliff edge.

Well my reasons are mostly selfish as a Brexit is a major blow to the ideological side of the project with one of the founding members opting out. I find the EU increasingly a terrifying monster who is only interested in it's own survival, bad news for smaller countries like Dutchland who are powerless against it. With a politically damaged Germany that simply can't pay Macron's dream and the UK leaving the EU could just fall before they get even more power over national governments. It's a real possibility that it will and that we can work on something new, something without the ambition of becomming a superstate

[Gilrandir]

Well, it's clean and easy for you over in Dutchland, urging us to jump off that cliff edge.

His urging doesn't matter any more, you have already jumped.

[Pannonian]

His urging doesn't matter any more, you have already jumped.

Not my wish. And his urgings nowadays take the form of, yes I know you'll break every bone in your body as a result of this, but trust me it'll be worth it, broadcasting this message remotely while he sits safely away in a comfy house somewhere on flat ground. If he truly believes in what he says, he should join us for the jump instead of preaching from his safehouse in Dutchland.

[Pannonian]

Well my reasons are mostly selfish as a Brexit is a major blow to the ideological side of the project with one of the founding members opting out. I find the EU increasingly a terrifying monster who is only interested in it's own survival, bad news for smaller countries like Dutchland who are powerless against it. With a politically damaged Germany that simply can't pay Macron's dream and the UK leaving the EU could just fall before they get even more power over national governments. It's a real possibility that it will and that we can work on something new, something without the ambition of becomming a superstate

If you want one of the founding members to opt out, you should preach to French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Italian or Luxembourger posters. And I find a future of being shafted by the US, EU and China unappetising, even if you find it amusing.

[Fragony]

If you want one of the founding members to opt out, you should preach to French, German, Belgian, Dutch, Italian or Luxembourger posters. And I find a future of being shafted by the US, EU and China unappetising, even if you find it amusing.

Why would I preach. The EU needs a priest though, it's barely alive, who thinks it can be saved in it's current form are like the concert of the Titanic. Comming up, a northern and southern Europe

[Husar]

http://www.euronews.com/2017/09/26/w...u-reform-plans

The French leader also said the EU should have a joint defence force able to act autonomously.

“At the beginning of the next decade, Europe should thus be equipped with a common intervention force, a common defence budget, and with a common doctrine to act,” he said.

On immigration too, Macron wants the EU to be more robust. It’s only with Europe, he said, that we can efficiently protect our borders and treat asylum seekers fairly.

“I want a real European asylum office to be created, which speeds up and harmonises our procedures: so that finally we have connected files and secure biometric identity documents, for in France today we deal with tens of thousands of asylum requests that our European partners have already rejected; (I want) a European border police force to be set up gradually, which guarantees rigorous control of borders everywhere in Europe and assures the return of those who can’t stay,” Macron said.
[...]
The French president’s address comes just two days after elections in Germany, which saw his key pro-EU ally Angela Merkel emerge weaker. Macron told his audience his speech was deliberately timed just after the vote and before coalition talks begin in Berlin, in order to have more influence.

He set an objective that the two countries completely integrate their markets and corporate rules by 2024.

Of course if the FDP and Bavarians (CSU) are against it, it has to be a great idea!

[Fragony]

integrating our country's economy's is French for give us your money
Giving people who ban satirical cartoons an army, you just don't do that
EU on immigrations, immigration dried up. So half a billion goes to picking them up because....ehhh.. why ask me. It was just decided by unelected people, nobody was asked.

[Gilrandir]

And his urgings nowadays take the form of, yes I know you'll break every bone in your body as a result of this, but trust me it'll be worth it, broadcasting this message remotely while he sits safely away in a comfy house somewhere on flat ground.

Evidently, he doesn't consider his EU house that comfy.

Of course if the FDP and Bavarians (CSU) are against it, it has to be a great idea!

Through my observations I have noticed that you are unfavorably predisposed towards Bavarians. How come?

[Husar]

Through my observations I have noticed that you are unfavorably predisposed towards Bavarians. How come?

Not against all of them personally, but as a state they represent a lot of things I don't like. They attract a lot of industry with low taxes others can't afford (the parasite principle that works only on a small scale). They think they're better than everyone else in general. They always score best in school systems and then think they're better....(anyway, on that note, if their system is so good, why don't we apply it everywhere? or maybe there are other factors...) The NSDAP began their "March on Berlin" there and I never heard a Bavarian who was ashamed of it.

They're still ultra-conservative to the point that they don't have a CDU but a CSU, which is their own ultra-conservative CDU-like party that allies with the CDU anyway to gain more power but constantly tries to drag them further to the right. They're also effectively pretty much a one-party state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria#Government Even the DDR seems to have had a more living/changing democracy than that. They represent a selfishness that is otherwise mostly found in former DDR states like Saxony.

They're still somewhat famous for having "Burschenschaften" which are old-fashioned student organizations for rich kids and other selfish people with far-right values, misogyny and sometimes outright Nazi support (they may exist in other states as well, but you usually hear about the Bavarian ones doing disgusting things). And they are the only German state I can think of that has a somewhat sizeable movement that wants independence because it thinks they're too good for the rest of us.

If that reminds you of Texas, mee too. I'm also convinced that there are plenty of good people there before anyone thinks I'm using too broad a brush, but overall they seem terribly self-absorbed, arrogant, etc. They also represent all the bad things of neoliberalism. I'd be in favor of releasing them if that meant corporations that are headquartered there couldn't do business in Germany/the EU anymore. Then we could see whether their economy would still go so strong due to their "inherent advantages"...Oh yeah, Brexit!

[Gilrandir]

They always score best in school systems and then think they're better....

Jealous?

I'd be in favor of releasing them if that meant corporations that are headquartered there couldn't do business in Germany/the EU anymore. Then we could see whether their economy would still go so strong due to their "inherent advantages"...Oh yeah, Brexit!

Not Brexit, but Bavexit.

[Husar]

Jealous?

I was personally quite happy with my school and there could be plenty of reasons why the Bavarian school system looks better than others.
For example that they had more Turkish ancestors than people in Hamburg or that they sort of segregate themselves as an elite society concentrated in one area. Let's assume some area in Eastern Ukraine decided that its inhabitants are superior Russians and drove all the Ukrainians away and then......eh, anyway, you'd probably be "jealous", too.

The point is that you cannot concentrate an elite in one area if there aren't more areas where you can "dump" everyone else. So it's a very unkind move to then look down on others and claim you don't need them. Try telling your plumber that he's a subbhuman loser when your toilet is clogged and see how superior you feel when he leaves without fixing it. Then keep telling yourself that the world would be a better place if only everyone had the job you have.

[Fragony]

You are kinda right about them, lotsa old money types and the little monsters they spawn

[Gilrandir]

Let's assume some area in Eastern Ukraine decided that its inhabitants are superior Russians and drove all the Ukrainians away and then......eh, anyway, you'd probably be "jealous", too.

In fact, they assumed they are neither Russians nor Ukrainians, but a totally different nation - Donbassians (aka the people of Donbas). So I'm not jealous - I'm hilarious.

Try telling your plumber that he's a subbhuman loser when your toilet is clogged and see how superior you feel when he leaves without fixing it.

In my experience it is vice versa. Plumbers tend to behave as if I was a subhuman and they are omniscient ubermenschen possessing secret knowledge and skills long lost by the unaware and clumsy laymen like me.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In fact, they assumed they are neither Russians nor Ukrainians, but a totally different nation - Donbassians (aka the people of Donbas). So I'm not jealous - I'm hilarious.

I think you meant 'not jealous -- I find them hilarious (or laughable).' Not being snarky, just hoping to clarify. I only have competence in one language as opposed to yourself, so I mean no offense.

I think that is an Achilles heel in Europe, by the way. Attempts to make a 'European Union' run into problems with identity differentiation, but at the other end European nationalism is too prone to balkanization. The cumulative weight of history can make the whole thing frustrating I imagine.

In my experience it is vice versa. Plumbers tend to behave as if I was a subhuman and they are omniscient ubermenschen possessing secret knowledge and skills long lost by the unaware and clumsy laymen like me.

I tend to treat them well because I am not a person "of my hands." While I could, with a list of instructions and enough time, effect almost any plumbing change needed, the plumber can do the task in moments whereas I would take 3 days. My plumbers have been neither ignorant nor presumptuous. They do, however, expect to be paid promptly.

[Gilrandir]

I think you meant 'not jealous -- I find them hilarious (or laughable).' Not being snarky, just hoping to clarify. I only have competence in one language as opposed to yourself, so I mean no offense.

Thank you for the correction. It felt like a mistake but I wasn't sure.

I tend to treat them well because I am not a person "of my hands." While I could, with a list of instructions and enough time, effect almost any plumbing change needed, the plumber can do the task in moments whereas I would take 3 days. My plumbers have been neither ignorant nor presumptuous. They do, however, expect to be paid promptly.

I didn't say I am rude (or anything close to it) to them. I usually swallow my feelings and bitter words that come to my mind and try to please them in any way possible - just because it is ME who needs their help, not the other way around. Only once did I show my displeasure at their (like in the communal services people) uppish ways. It was a case when I thought I smelled gas in the basement (I live in a nine-storeyed building). I called the gas service (or whatever you call them), they came and found out that the smell (which they admitted was quite strong) was caused by the dead rat decomposing down there. Then they started to voice their dissatisfaction saying that the difference in two smells was obvious to anyone with intelligence and trying to explain impossibility of gas leakage in the basement by the peculiarities of the gas pipe system design which is obvious to anyone with intelligence. Then I asked them if they could tell a participle from a gerund. When their astonishment was evident I said that I'm paid to be able to do that and they are paid to be able to do their job, whatever each of us might think of the mental abilities of each other. But I admit I snapped at them because I was kind of acting on behalf of the whole house. Had it been my apartment only, I would have probably behaved more suavely.

[Fragony]

Meanwhile is Spain, riot-police hammers down on 'illegal' referendum, EU aproves, still want a quik-reaction force that can be deployed everywhere? It will be used against EU-citizins because of EU-costitution enfingement, everybody should see that comming. There is still time before the EU shows it's true form.

[Pannonian]

Meanwhile is Spain, riot-police hammers down on 'illegal' referendum, EU aproves, still want a quik-reaction force that can be deployed everywhere? It will be used against EU-citizins because of EU-costitution enfingement, everybody should see that comming. There is still time before the EU shows it's true form.

There's no chance of an EU armed force, because Britain will veto it. No, wait...

[Pannonian]

Thank you for the correction. It felt like a mistake but I wasn't sure.



I didn't say I am rude (or anything close to it) to them. I usually swallow my feelings and bitter words that come to my mind and try to please them in any way possible - just because it is ME who needs their help, not the other way around. Only once did I show my displeasure at their (like in the communal services people) uppish ways. It was a case when I thought I smelled gas in the basement (I live in a nine-storeyed building). I called the gas service (or whatever you call them), they came and found out that the smell (which they admitted was quite strong) was caused by the dead rat decomposing down there. Then they started to voice their dissatisfaction saying that the difference in two smells was obvious to anyone with intelligence and trying to explain impossibility of gas leakage in the basement by the peculiarities of the gas pipe system design which is obvious to anyone with intelligence. Then I asked them if they could tell a participle from a gerund. When their astonishment was evident I said that I'm paid to be able to do that and they are paid to be able to do their job, whatever each of us might think of the mental abilities of each other. But I admit I snapped at them because I was kind of acting on behalf of the whole house. Had it been my apartment only, I would have probably behaved more suavely.

In my experience, backed anecdotally by the builders episode in Fawlty Towers, plumbers only moan about the competence of other plumbers who preceded them. They assume the ignorance of the customer who called them out (they'd do the job themselves otherwise), and are happy to educate them as to how they're right and previous plumbers are wrong. If they work for an agency, they'll also happily gripe about the competence of the deskjobs.

[Fragony]

There's no chance of an EU armed force, because Britain will veto it. No, wait...

Bit of a problem there yes

[Husar]

Meanwhile is Spain, riot-police hammers down on 'illegal' referendum, EU aproves, still want a quik-reaction force that can be deployed everywhere? It will be used against EU-citizins because of EU-costitution enfingement, everybody should see that comming. There is still time before the EU shows it's true form.

Well, good. These entitled, arrogant people cannot get away with their illegal referendum for further balkanization.
From what I hear, international law values the national integrity higher than self determination, unless there is a genocide or similar injustice going on.
Otherwise, if I don't like my new government, I'll hold a referendum with some like-minded folks and found Husarland, telling Germany it can suck it and to stay out of my territory.

edit: as a bonus: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...a-1118002.html

[Fragony]

Can't have a referendum? Just because they say so? They don't have to accept the results of a reerendum, boy do we know, so why are they so scared

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Can't have a referendum? Just because they say so? They don't have to accept the results of a reerendum, boy do we know, so why are they so scared

Frags:

To be fair to the Spanish authorities, under Spanish law those holding the referendum WERE guilty of sedition. You could suggest that the level of force employed was out of place given the relatively peaceful form this seditious activity was taking, but they were enforcing the law.

My country was founded by revolution. When we declared our independence, however, we did not also make some kind of specious claim that England had no right to try and stop us. Did the Catalans expect Spain to simply say 'Cheerio' and acquiesce?

[Montmorency]

The Spanish government should make it clear that it rejects the results and process regardless of outcome.

Using violent force against public officials and civilians gathering to vote is self-destructive.

[Husar]

The Spanish government should make it clear that it rejects the results and process regardless of outcome.

Using violent force against public officials and civilians gathering to vote is self-destructive.

It does seem rather harsh, but my guess is that they think if the Catalans get away with holding that referendum, then the next step will be the Catalans just stopping the tax payments and just beginning a sedition process regardless of whether or not Spain accepts the result. And at that point what is Spain going to do? Reject the non-payment of taxes until it is bankrupt? At that point it might need even more force to stop the sedition than it uses now. The Catalans might have been counting on getting away with enough that they can at some point claim it's already a done deed and hope to have the status quo respected internationally. Then you might see claims of "yeah, well, the Spanish should have stopped this earlier, now that the Catalan militia have dug in, surely they don't want to start a war!?!"

With that sort of argument, the Spanish might be doomed either way because it favors the seditious party every step of the way.

[Beskar]

Otherwise, if I don't like my new government, I'll hold a referendum with some like-minded folks and found Husarland, telling Germany it can suck it and to stay out of my territory.

Probably what Samartian thinks of Kosovo.

[Montmorency]

It does seem rather harsh, but my guess is that they think if the Catalans get away with holding that referendum, then the next step will be the Catalans just stopping the tax payments and just beginning a sedition process regardless of whether or not Spain accepts the result. And at that point what is Spain going to do? Reject the non-payment of taxes until it is bankrupt? At that point it might need even more force to stop the sedition than it uses now. The Catalans might have been counting on getting away with enough that they can at some point claim it's already a done deed and hope to have the status quo respected internationally. Then you might see claims of "yeah, well, the Spanish should have stopped this earlier, now that the Catalan militia have dug in, surely they don't want to start a war!?!"

With that sort of argument, the Spanish might be doomed either way because it favors the seditioning party every step of the way.

If the situation is negative regardless of what you do, then isn't it a categorical choice over the option involving violent repression?