FACT FINDING SHEET 1: rank bonusses

[Dionysus9]

Yuuki,

You make excellent points, as always, but I think the whole rank bonus system is being revealed as (basically) useless.

In order to "match the frontage" of a 2x50 line shock infantry, you need 2.5 spear units in 5X20. So basically, you need 2.5 spear units to stop one shock unit from "lapping". The attacker can throw 8 shock units in 2x50 at a 16 unit spearwall and tie them up entirely (and get some lapping as well). Meanwhile, he can flank with the other 8 units. How could such a defense be viable? Even if the spears manage to slaughter the 8 units they are facing (which seems plausible if the rank bonuses are any good, and if the attacker has bad flank timing), the spears now have to face another 8 units of fresh shock, plus the rallied first wave. They cant chase but have to stand in the spearwall to retain their defensive advantage.

This assumes 16 spears vs. 16 shock units. I'm still trying to think of ways to beat a single line rush with 16 spears, but I'm not coming up with anything. If 16 spears can't do it with rank bonuses and a purely defensive posture, then it seems like the rank bonuses are relatively worthless. I'm no expert, but I've never been able to make any real use of the rank bonus. It seems more suited to SP where you may very well outnumber the enemy 2.5 to 1.

Anyone up for some testing of 16 spears in hold/hold vs. 16 shock? I'd like to test some of these dynamics. I'm gonna be busy with family this week though........not many heads for Bacchus in the near future.

The only thing that might work is if the attacker has bad flank timing and the spearwall (or parts of it) is able to switch into wedges and slaughter the first wave of shock before the flank can be accomplished. A good attacker shouldnt have this problem. Instead of just throwing 8 shock at the spearwall, he could add another 4 and still have 4 for flanking. If the flankers were set ahead and to the sides of the charging 2x50's, they would complete the flank at the same time the 12 shock hit the wall. I just cant see the spears standing in the face of such an assault.

The fact that it takes 2.5 spears in 5x20 to "match the face" of a single shock unit in 2x50 seems to destroy any benefit (in MP at least) that the rank bonus might give.

I also agree with Magy that lapping around shoulnt give the same bonus as a full flank. The -2 unit-based morale penalty is minor compared to +5 attack just because a few units walk around the edge of a formation. Maybe the hold/hold should be a little more flexible to allow spearman on the edge of the unit to spin to face "lappers". Thats what I want them to do. Just as I want my attackers to lap, I want my defenders to meet them face on when they do. Nobody is going to stand there facing forward with nothing to do while an enemy carves at their side.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

It's just the guys who get in a sideswipe who get the +5 attack bonus. The thing about a Chiv Sgt 20x5 vs Chiv Sgt 50x2 is that over 1/2 the men (60) attack the sides of the 20x5 unit. That's a lot of men coming in on the sides. There is an additional +2 attack bonus if you charge into the flank. I guess that's a charge bonus and goes away quickly. It doesn't look to me like the lapping men get that charge bonus. Turning the flank of a spear unit and forcing the men on the end to face to the outside is an advantage since the rank support is disrupted. I think that already happens, but it's possibe the ai switched the unit to engage-at-will after contact and that's why the men on the ends turned to the outside. It was disasterous for the unit which ended up becoming squashed between the attackers pressing in on the two ends. The men in the wide unit who were coming in on the sides had rank bonuses from the men behind them. The lapping unit definitely has the tactical advantage.

Remember that swords beat spears. You don't require wide formations to do that now. The 16 spears facing 16 swords are doomed in a straightup fight without the swords even flanking. Spears at equal florins can still beat cav, but they have to present a solid wall, and you have to deny your flank to the cav. The cav will eat you up if your army becomes disordered.

I definitely think the rank bonus is a trade off. Norrow front, vulnerable sides, unit tires faster than you may expect when fighting, movement is unweildy and rank bonus is progressively lost as the unit takes casualties. I think spears are still a good choice for holding the line against cav and holding long enough against an infantry rush to give you some opportunity to try and flank the attackers with other units. That's where the long thin lines are particularly frustrating because they deny you their flank. However, I've seen these long thin line attacks collapse. Units in very wide formation are difficult to deal with later in a battle when your units may be widely spread out as a result of chasing routers.

I would not be opposed to limiting the width of units to something like 30 men. That would still allow a 60 man ranged unit to form up in a double row. The width of 100 man units is already limited to a little more than 50 men which shows there is a way to limit width. I would be wary of reducing the flank attack bonus unless we understand the full repercussions on gameplay of doing that.

I like to use compact units because they are more maneuverable, and can squeeze through gaps. The trade off is more exposure of those unit's flanks, and a certain amount of bunching up of the men when fighting which could be an inefficiency of combat if what you want is the maximum number of men engaged in actual fighting.

[Papewaio]

Units were historically vulnerable to any flanking.

This is ancient lore... look at what Alexander the Greats Companions and shield bearers on the exposed right flank were for.

Or how Roman infantry beat Greek Hoplites. Or how the elephants were beaten by flanking.

Infantry had to form squares to defend against cavalry flanking them.

Now the problem in MTW is not that flanking is to powerful. It is either the counter tactics have not evolved yet (although a counter charge of wedge shock may work) or that there is no way of forming a viable defence.

In STW I used to form a bow shape out of my forces and this seemed to counter most unit flanking problems. Also the supporting units (I would be staggered... just imagine the surface of a bike wheel _-_-_ ) could then flank the flanker.

It would be interesting if individual units could form a square (naturally they can't move) that negates any flanking bonuses or at least minimises them.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

i expect from a nicely squared unit to do that and keep their rankbonusses

[Dionysus9]

So, are you saying, Yuuki, that you've actually gotten the rank bonus to work for you in MP? I normally play with Spearmen (as opposed to sgts.) so I dont ever notice the rank bonus doing much. I'd expect sgts. to get more use out of it, but I havent ever seen it working in a MP game.

There should be a command which makes the unit a square with men on each side facing outwards. If you then give this unit 1/4 of the rank bonus on each side, I think we'd have something worth calling a "rank bonus." As it stands now, I've never seen anyone able to make it really work. I just keep my spears in lines of 3 and 4 because they cover more frontage....when I try to use them in ranks of 5 they get flanked way too easy.

And another thing that makes "wedging" a thin line more difficult is that my unit tries to attack the center of the enemy unit. I dont want to hit the center usually, I want to hit in the middle of one of the wings. It would be nice if we could tell the attacking unit where we want it to hit the defenders....

[baz]

i think we need some expert opinion on this to satisfy what actually is the difference in effectiveness between Unit Flanking and Unit Lapping...

all i know is that i have done some 1v1 tests for myself and a unit which looses when in the reconmended number of ranks can get a victory when in ranks of 2 and in engage at will

i did several tests including the units spearmen, feudal sergeants, chiv sergeants and order foot soldiers. In these cases the weaker unit was able to get a victory ultilising these tactics...

On-line i have been unable to mimick these results but im not the best tactician

[Puzz3D]

The unit in two ranks is still getting a rank bonus. It's not as though the deep block is getting a rank bonus and the 50x2 thin line is getting none. The rank bonus stops at the 3rd man for spears. I don't use 20x5 blocks of spears. The deepest I go is 25x4, and I only do that to provide a reserve row to make up for casualties. There is no need to go any deeper than what you estimate is required to hold the line during a frontal assault. If your opponent widens his deployment, you have to adjust for that by bringing more units up on the line or reforming the individual units into a wider formation.

My view is that the rank bonus adds to the ability of the unit to fight longer, and as such it combines well with "hold formation" which shifts 2 combat points from attack to defend. You end up with a unit that is very hard to break down from the front, and works as a blocking unit while you do something else with your other units. It provides a stable line around which you can, hopefully, maneuver. If you can't get at your opponent's flank because he is in long lines or backed into a corner, then you have to either win the ranged battle or overpower him straight ahead. Under no circumstances can you afford to let men come lapping around your flanks unopposed.

So far, the players using long lines have not forced me out of using more conventional blocks, but the blocks have to stick together.

[Swoosh So]

Lol i cant believe giljay said that about 8 units v 1 thats comical :P

Swooooooooooooshoooooooooooow

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well it gives a clear idea there is a gap between the shoggy die hards and the developers

[LadyAnn]

Quote[/b] (Swoosh So @ Dec. 02 2002,14:49)]Lol i cant believe giljay said that about 8 units v 1 thats comical :P

Uh, was it longjohn2, not giljay? I was trying to see who the Wolves are feeding on

Annie

[FasT]

Hmmm our Khan keeps many secret away from FasT..:(
Tim eto start huntin u again;)

[Magyar Khan]

Fast if u ever step on my tail once more i personally chop your feet off...


come here son

[FasT]

U will have to caught FasT first;)