Multiplayer, is it dead for the vets?

[Crandaeolon]

I've found that goofing around helps to break static patterns. Trying things like hosting radically different sorts of games and playing with different types of armies kind of refreshes the game. Occasionally there are disasters, of course, like hills/desert battles if the attackers are not prepared, but personally i've had the most fun in these "experimental" games.

Like hills. (Ok, hills are not _that_ experimental...) Some large hill battles will remain as replay files on my hard drive and in my memories for a loooong time. Steppe battles I usually forget right after they're over.

Of course, alternating play styles (within certain limits) improves skills, too. I bet we all know at least one goofer who's a great player to boot.

[Kocmoc]

hmmmm, some good points....


i lost interest like many other "old" players. Youssof hit nail on the head its extrem boring to waste 3 or 4 hours to just kick some new players, i want some challanges as well, but its near impossible

puzz, wich player are good and never played STW?

never saw 1 of this new-good players, all what i see is impatient and rush, they dont learn...they rush and lose....than they rush again and lose again...lol

the other problem is, that this game lost some very important aspects. the hills are not there its a 2D game now. with all this flat we can easy say, it got a arcade game. hit fast ....click fast...and u will win...ofcourse u need to know the basics

there are some major problems and all what i can read is...this patch is good (or very good), again...maybe the SP is much better now but the MP aspects are still very bad.
.....i wont start moaning, but thats the truth

so what the problem? and what would be a solution?

well, imo we need a ladder so we see more 1v1 and more camping (on some hardcore hills this will increase the skill very much in a short time.
in 3v3 u cant learn something there is much luck and if the new player lose or win, they dont know why they won or lost.

we need a patch and this fast there are so many games without any problems in online play. So we stil lwait for an answer when we get a new patch?

all together, i like this game, but compared to STW it lost much
the tactical momentum is gone, its just rushing and the knowledge about how to use the units well.

to the fun, well...there isnt any fun to steamroll new players all the day in STW, mag and me had some chanllanges and we lost some games sometimes....but here...lol we jsut lose if we take very weak armys.....and if u join a 3v3 with 2 new allys..... so there isnt any fun.... i dont wanna play 100 games to play 1 good game...

imo we have the short arcade player online now, they will leave in 2 or 3 months than we allone again and its a question if the old guys come back......

i personal search for other games like the other wolves....so if we find some good game we are away anyway....

have fun

koc

[Jemasze Toda]

Yuuki, where is the fun aspect in a Clan-league you ask?

Where is the fun-aspect in joining a basketball/soccer/chess/whatever club in order to play in a league?
I would say its the desire to compete against other humans (males mostly ) and to measure your skills...quite natural, isn't it?
That may personally bore you and in general you prefer to play only single fun battles with no further impact or history to tell of. Easy played, easy forgotten...
But what is ok for you, does not necessarily ( obviously i should say) reflect the opinion of others, as you well know of course. Lots of people enjoy it a lot to have some kind of history and background for their favourised entertainment, and leagues, organized tournaments and even more so online-campaigns and Clan-stuff are possible ways to satisfy that desire. The competitive spirit is a vital part of the fun -especially in the long term- for many people.
We all have our preferences....while i (besides playing of course...) enjoy writing foolish posts here and elsewhere, about the game and beyond, you take pleasure in thinking and discussing endless statistical details in the forums.

If you stay with a game for over two years, it MUST have something to fascinate you.
The better you get, the better opponents you wish to play against and as a matter of fact NEED to play in order to improve your skill.
Some think of Totalwar as a "sport" nowadays, exactly as others play chess for example. They love this game and honor it with their sportive attitude and competitive spirit.

But each to his own liking...

yours Jemasze Toda alias TheFool

also known as ELITEofManstein

[Crandaeolon]

Koc, could ya list some players, like Shogun vets, that ya think are good? That would help me put things into perspective.

And about hills... true, the bonuses aren't large and it's easier to attack uphill than in Shogun, but the scope of hill maps is still much larger. And if I recall correctly from the discussions here, hill camping was considered dishonourable in Shogun and people mostly played flat maps. So what would be the solution?

A new game... hmm. Master of Orion 3 perhaps? It might be a flop, all the delays in production can't be good signs, but they say it's built from the ground up to support multiplayer. We'll have to wait and see, I'm a bit skeptical about it.

Now I'll start counting all the 6-star assassins sent after me because I dared to mention a sci-fi game on these forums...

[MagyarKhans Cham]

imo thare are just not enuf people in teh same category

we have some modders
we have some statshusslers
we have some competetive gamers
we have some wargamers

we have some fitting in more than 1 group

my Khan is interested in teh wargamers to have interesting campaigns. campaigns require involvment which just a few can bring.

but besides the clan war belt we are looking for new games and hope that new guys will master the game and bring us fun when we hop in once in a while.

[ElmarkOFear]

Well for turnbased, PBEM games, Combat Mission 2 is the best. For shooters, there are many good ones out there. For multiplayer strategy games, I would recommend civ2, civ3, or Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. For an alternative to playing chess, I would recommend a game called "GO". It is a very simple game but the strategy behind it is endless and very challenging, especially online. For a classic game, similar in some respects to the Total War series, I would recommend Sid Meier's Gettysburg Then there are single player games such as Deus Ex, Half-life, Max-Payne, System Shock 2. For a great and fun arcade type flight simulation game Microsoft's Crimson Skies is the best. For a real flight/war simulation "Sturmovik" can't be beat. Then there are some cheap classic games out there such as Starcraft, Red Alert, Myth series. I have also heard good things about No One Lives Forever 1 & 2. Oh so many games so little time.

[Swoosh So]

Elmark of fear junior member rofl


Swoooooooooooooooooooosh

[youssof_Toda]

Maybe elmark hasn't proven yet that he can act as a good boy when given the unlimited powers of a senior member

[ElmarkOFear]

Story of my life Always a bridesmaid, never the bride LOL

[tootee]

YOU ALWAYS Elmo

[tootee]

I think I've post in the wrong thread.. oh nevermind

[MagyarKhans Cham]

u turning this into an OT thread elm?

[Puzz3D]

Jemasze,

I played in chess leagues for 20 years and enjoyed the competion, but I enjoy chess a lot more now that winning isn't as important. Disparaging games played for enjoyment seems to be a fad around here, and you continue the trend by calling the games easily played and easily forgotten which is not necessarily true. I think many players put a lot of effort into these games. We have the replay feature which is similar to writing your moves down in chess which preserves the game. All I'm saying is that a lot of people play for enjoyment, and you can automatically rule them out of a play for blood competition.


Kocmoc,

CBR and Bosdur are two who didn't play STW. I've encountered some others, but don't remember their names. It's just going to take a while before a large percentage of the new players achieve a high level of skill. However, becoming very good at a game reduces the number of opponents that can give you strong competition. In theory, the best player has no one who can give him a good strong game. BTW, rushing was an effective tactic in STW.

While I find most of the MTW MP game imbalances tolerable, I have stopped playing late era because of the handgunner which can get too many upgrades at high florins. I play at 15K to 20K to reduce the routing. Also, early era is less interesting because of the weak archers which I still think is mostly due to a lack of ammo. Most of the units are not needed. The 5 most cost effective units per faction are all you really need. I've been going through the hilly maps, but most of them have rather small hills which doesn't give much of an advantage to the defender. There is still some downhill bonus in the game, but you need fairly large hills to notice it. Some highly defensive custom maps might be needed to make attacking very challenging. As I've said before, I though the downhill bonus in STW was too large, and, as I recall, a lot of players felt that way. Just look at how many games were played on green or ironing board.

[Dionysus9]

Bachs_Gambit2 has plenty of hills for defenders and yet enough room to maneuver to give attackers some advantages....

downloadable at the custom files area, put it in /savemaps

[youssof_Toda]

Quote[/b] (MagyarKhans Cham @ Dec. 02 2002,18:40)]u turning this into an OT thread elm?

Quote[/b] ]u turning this into an OT thread elm?

That must be the reason why he is still a junior member

[Kocmoc]

puzz,


true....many games was played on green or iron, this was a big problem i dont think the hill bonusses was to big in STW. It just took some time to win uphill, this is something wich the most guys wont do they want "fast" and easy games, they dont want to climb it step by step. this was something wich always worked for me....on 4th or totomi or any other map with some normal hills.

the big hill maps was to win as well it was just hard and somehow it was a challange. A very important point was, that u could hide with ur tired army on hills, so u had a good chance to win 1v2, just by controlling ur army well.

now with the current system u cant do it, and this means u havnt any chance to win 1v2 (ofcourse vs good players)

just an example, with this "tactic" u never will loose

save 3 or 4 V0 knight and fight just with 12 units, maybe u will loose, but the saved, fresh 4 knights will run over the tired enemy units this spoil every game away just coz u can hide on a devensiv position and the fatique is bad as well.

i personal won very oft as attacker in STW and i didnt found it hard to attack this hills maybe some impatient players didnt won vs campers but this is more about skill than hillbonusses.

again, if some players, wich are average or bad say the hillbonusses are too big, than we shouldnt change it like this. IMO all the longtime players and skilled warriors are the opinion that the hillbonusses was good in STW. (at least the guys who i talked to).

its just a tactical point, u need defensiv positions or we have the 2d gaming and the ironboard or green maps are just stupid

So if i see now the games wich are played are still very falt maps, so what will change if we get some more hillbonusses? nothing for this maps its just not important what the hillbonusses are
to look at the SP, this could cause maybe some problems for this guys...ok there we ned a solution...
and the solution is very easy we need 2 patches

there is somehow a hardcoded bonuss for the hills, 1 number to change, this should be easy....

koc

[MagyarKhans Cham]

well i just noticed i got a yellow card anyone knows where and what cuased it?

[Swoosh So]

Whats a yellow card for?

[MagyarKhans Cham]

perhaps reacting on some ^**#&$&#036*# people i guess

[Puzz3D]

Kocmoc,

That is true about holding back fresh units and then chain routing the weakened enemy units, but that strategy is not new to MTW. I saw it used very effectively in 3v3 and 4v4 battles in STW, and when coupled with the downhill bonus you couldn't win against it. In MTW, I've seen the foremost practitioner of that strategy fail 3 times, but he didn't have all cav. From what I have observed, 90% of the players do not understand how the morale system works, and they fall into that trap of a player holding back units every time. If you're in a 1v1 and your opponent is holding back 4 units, you are advised to do the same so you have something to counter them with. In big battles, it takes a high level of cooperation to take out the last camping opponent, but I think the routing in all directions helps because it's hard for a single player to run off all the units of 3 or 4 opponents.

[Dionysus9]

I recall the devs saying they hadnt changed any of the hill bonuses in MTW. I think the problem is caused by flat maps. If thats the case, then we just need steeper maps.

We can do that.

Holding a few units in reserve can also backfire if they get caught in the chain rout from the units you commit. And since Morale support is calculated by the # of banners (and not # of men) the enemies depleted (but still standing) units will boost the morale of any units he may have also kept in reserve.

Holding back units is not a clear advantage against experienced players.

[muffinman14]

MP was dead for me I guess but now Im playin with some buddies at the com.

[Puzz3D]

Dion,

LJ did say he didn't change the downhill combat bonus in MTW, but it is changed. It's something like 60/40 for OrderFoot on about a 45 degree slope. In WE/MI it's around 2/1 on a 30 degree slope for 100 man yari samurai. The WE/MI number is very rough, but there is no doubt that the downhill bonus is considerably larger in WE/MI.

[Crandaeolon]

Quote[/b] ]
save 3 or 4 V0 knight and fight just with 12 units, maybe u will loose, but the saved, fresh 4 knights will run over the tired enemy units this spoil every game away just coz u can hide on a devensiv position and the fatique is bad as well.

Heh, I fell for that yesterday or the day before that, can't remember which... guess I just wanna forget

The map was arid Campaign Milan IIRC, and Koc had 8 cav units, most knights, some pav arbs and some order footmen. (again, IIRC. I'm very very angry at myself as I forgot to save the replay, do ya have it Koc BTW?). I was the attacker and had a "balanced" army (4 light cav, 4 normal arbs, 2 chivalric sergeants, 4 CMAA and 2 FMAA). Florin count was 13000 for both, I think.

Koc took a small forest (on a slight hill) close to the center of the map with his foot units and set up 4 cav on the other sides of the forest. Those 4 knight units in reserve were deployed _far_ away.

I mulled the situation a bit and deployed slowly. Perhaps a bit too slowly, as I took a few casualties from arb fire. I was clearly losing the shooting match, as Koc's arbs were partially covered in the forest and had pavises. I split my army and took a small forest across Koc's to put some of my own arbs in a more advantageous position, but the shooting match was practically useless as Koc's footmen were deep in the forest and I could only shoot at his arbs.

Then I decided to rush Koc's forest with my swords and screen his cav away with my spears, but could have done better as I was forced to constantly keep some attention on his reserve knights. I thought those knights would hit my flank as soon as I looked away.

Well, I understood the tactic after I routed Koc's main army, but it was too late by then. I gathered my remaining forces and protected one of my flanks with the forest, but my men routed as soon as the knights made contact. I also had only one spear unit left at that point.

I honestly don't think there was any way I could have pulled it off with that army setup. Even if I had routed his main forces more quickly and suffered less casualties, I could not have chased them off the map or I'd have been too scattered. Perhaps with cav, but there were too many routing units to chase them all. There was no way I could have gone after his 4 reserve knights with my 4 light cav (and one of those was my gen). And, I plain and simply had too few spears against so much cav. Perhaps I could have deployed my remnant swords in the forest, but I doubt it would have had enough effect.

It was a good match, well at least educating . I learned a lot of things from it. I wish I had the replay...

Koc, what do ya think I could have done in that situation?

Someday I will prove that a newblood can rise thru the ranks and give the vets a spanking, grrr...

[Dionysus9]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Dec. 03 2002,17:57)]Dion,

LJ did say he didn't change the downhill combat bonus in MTW, but it is changed. It's something like 60/40 for OrderFoot on about a 45 degree slope. In WE/MI it's around 2/1 on a 30 degree slope for 100 man yari samurai. The WE/MI number is very rough, but there is no doubt that the downhill bonus is considerably larger in WE/MI.

Thanks for the clarification Yuuki....kinda sad its become a 2D game because of all the flat standard maps. What we need to make up for the problem is HILLS

Well, then I suppose we do have a problem and the only solution is more severe slopes. We just have to make BIGGER hills.

*plug*

Bachs_Gambit2 (my custom map) received numerous complaints for being too hilly in STW. Now maybe it will receive a warmer welcome.

Go download it everyone, lets start playing some steep maps.

[Magyar Khan]

bigger hills dont solve a thing dion since fatique is still very important and imo a bit too much.
big hills do look nice tho.

cran u will beat vets more regurly but u will never spank them hard if they concentrate on your game. i have seen all sort of skills, talented and fast growing ones amongst players but there is no way u can spank a top rank vet. or u must discover some hidden "features" yourself.

di u play stw yourself?

[Crandaeolon]

I never played Shog online, only single player as I had no 'net connection then and the online efforts of my buddies were concentrated on games like CS, UT and Tribes 2 anyway. We played on a Polytechnic's comps back then.

Of course no one will ever be able to 'spank' 'vets' around the maps with ease, at least I hope so. But some newbloods will eventually become 'vets' themselves at some point, some faster and some slower. Most probably never, but you can be certain there will be a few.

What I've seen happen with other games is that a new iteration is always a _new_ game. For example, the differences between Quakeworld and Quake 2. The feel of Q2 was horrible from the perspective of QW vets. I could not play the game, it felt clumsy and imprecise. (And it was, the playability of Q2 was horrible compared to QW. At least from my perspective.)

The same happened with Tribes and Tribes 2, and with UT and UT2003k. The (best) vets always complained. (I think UT2003k is a miserably bad game. I have it on my shelf, but don't really play it.)

I think Shog and MTW are a special case, as they're fairly close to each other in gameplay, but I don't feel I've played Shog enough to have a knowledgeable opinion. They must not be _totally_ different games since the Shog vets could bring their skills onto the playing field. And of course the basic gameplay and interface are largely the same. So, I'd like to ask the vets how different they really feel?

Right, let's get closer to the point. I believe that the more different a "next" game in a game series is, the harder it will be for the 'vets' to excel at. Of course the 'vets' already have a lot of 'foundation' skills, and even just playing different games improves one's ability with a game one has _never_ played before. (My friend mastered Day of Defeat in a single week, becoming the best player on the server. The others had been playing for six months, and the server was one of the busiest in Scandinavia. Then I persuaded him to stop computer gaming for a while, as he had been slow in his studies. Served the bugger right. )

Vets have learned the skills. But anyone, even a newblood, may have the talent. There are lots of people on Earth, and there is always someone with a greater or at least equal _potential_. As for Shog / MTW... I don't think the mechanics are different enough to actually _hinder_ the vets, but time will tell if some of the newbloods have enough talent to rise above the best players of today. It will definitely happen if the vets get disinterested in the game.

This is getting to be a long post, but about those "hidden features"... like I told you, there are some that I will not use. Like the long lines of MAA or Cav. I will try to beat them with other tactics. For me, that's a part of the fun... and if I lose, no matter. Losing's not so bad as there's always something to be learned from a defeat. On the other hand... if at some time a cheesy "feature" becomes so prominent that almost everyone who uses it will automatically win, I'll stop playing MTW and either wait for it to be fixed or start playing a new game.

Sorry for the hijack attempt, good night all

[Kocmoc]

hi crand,

as u asked so nicely and it seems ur a real nice guy, i will give u "hint" or lets say my ideas in thsi situation.

the only way to counter fresh cav with tired units is the use of spears
but, spears have always to stand and they have to be in hold position, like foot order...they are from start in hold. If spears are in hold, the cav DONT get the chargebonuss and this solve the problem. ofcourse if u have jsut 30 men units left this wont help much, but with an average unit.....maybe 50 or 60 men u should have a chance vs this cav.....i would stretch the spears as well to get more area closed. and i would use hold position and hold formation.

another good point in the situation would be if u split ur army in 2 parts, first the enemy has to decide if he splitt his 4 cavs or if he catch 1 by 1.... if he do he will be tired as well if he reach the second part of ur army, if not he need good skills to control this 2 splitts and u just face 2 knight with both of ur splits, so u make the supportbonusses less effectiv...

i remember this game, u played bad and u had the wrong units left, u had 4 maa units in ur center my knights eat ur maa and later u cant face with them any cav, if my cav with a charge of 20 or 26 hit ur maa with 30 men left, they will run after the first secs, not a chance.

but ut other problem was, that u won very close vs my 12 units so u had not enought leftt to face the other 4 support units

i could speak about this some hours there are so man ypossible solution and tactics this is just impossible to explain.

to the question of the vets...hehe.....MTW and STW are near same, the +2 moral to all units is left and this would solve the major problems, the shooters are less effectiv and some bonusses can spoil the game very easy....the hillbonusses are just to low to use a defending possition,so this game lost a lot compared to STW. U have to be offensiv the whole time, u cant hide or take any defensiv position.

i personal moved to MTW and needed 2 games to beat near everything, now it got a bit better but i normaly have jsut good games vs STW-vets, puzz listed CBR and (forgot it) i dont agree, they are maybe the better of the new players but they dont know much, they can good rush but are mostly impatient and want fast victs.
the best teamwork i saw so far was from 3 RTK-members, they played very well.

imo the most new good players exploited maybe 30% of this game and mostly they do somethng because they know the outcome but they dont know why this happens. And there is more as just knowledge, there is a feeling and just a handfull has the feeling. Where is the real difference?
some players played about 10.000 games they feel it, they dont know the stats they just feel what will happen, u need at least 5000 games to come close to this guys, something what will never happen, or u play 14 hours a day and just 1v1 teambattles near never bring any skill or knowledge.

but look, our game easy show to u, that in this game are some problems, if the fatique woud be changed and ur units would be a bit fresher u had a chance or the hill would give u some more bonusses.... but as long i can just with tricks can win i wouldnt say it is the skill which decide about the outcome of this game.

koc


PS: i near never save replays, sorry

[Puzz3D]

Kocmoc,

If a player needs 5000 games to compete with someone who has played 10,000 games, that would say there is a lot of depth to the game. If you can't explain how to counter your strategy in Crandaeolon's game that too would say there is tactical complexity to the game, and it's not just all cheap tactics as you have been claiming. Now how could the new players get 1000's of games in if the game has been out only 3 months?

Crandaeolon's units should move into the trees and stay there since MAA cannot compete with 4 remaining cav knights in the open field. If he can hold in the woods, the game would be stalemated, but that's the best he can do at that point. Bringing only 2 spears and light cav leaves his army vulnerable to cav knights.

Most fatigue is suffered when fighting, and, since Crandaeolon used all of his units to fight your 12, of course his units are going to be fatigued. I wouldn't draw from that the conclusion that fatigue should be reduced. I would draw the conclusion that Crandaeolon has to beat your 12 units with 12 of his units and keep a 4 unit reserve that is capable of checking the 4 cav knights.

I don't agree with you that there is no defensive capability in MTW and that the game is 2D. There is still a combat bonus, morale bonus and ranged fire bonus for height, and units move slower when moving uphill and faster when moving downhill.

[Kocmoc]

hmmmm,

i tent to give up, so this is my last try ...
its seems u read jsut the half of my post

1. i explained 2 different tactics how to counter
2. i didnt said there is no defensive capability in MTW,
ur points are true, but near useless, its nice if the units run faster uphill and slower downhill and its nice that missles shoot wider, BUT this is useless in such situation, the archer hurt a bit more...well thats near nothing, so its true but i dont change much
i saidi cant explain it all, it would take too much time. so i decided to explain, some of the best tactics in this situation.
3. he couldnt win with jsut 12 of his units, he hardly won with his 16 vs my 12, so with 12 he would lsot anyway.
i just showed, thats its (like arcade game) very important what units u buy and that some units are very overpowered.

ther is a "deph" about the basics and the controlling skill, but its much more important to buy the good units and how fast u can click the units. Its just impossible to win with a blanced army vs a good setup, as long the players are both at the same skilllevel.

maybe we play different games, but as long i dont feel much advance if u or i hideon a hill, than i would say, the hillbonusses are near zero, again ur points are true, but with near useless shooters wich can shoot wider, it change nothing. if u hit 5 men of 1000 or hit 10 on a longer distance makes just no difference.
and if the defender can be faster, what helps it?

he has to sit on his hill or he give up his "advance", so if he is faster or not makes no difference, ofcourse he could flank a bit faster, but this is something u can easy compansate with saved flanks...

this combat moralbonuss, hmmm if its there i dont notice it
at least i wold say its not important, i tested some hillattacks vs very good players in MTW and STW and in MTW a normal hill is same like flat area
still bigger hills are easy to attack, lets say too easy.

If crand would played better, i agree with u, than he should attack with just 12 units.

My example is this....

to create a feelable difference u should be able to win with 40% of ur units vs 60 or 70% of the enemy unit in a frontal fight. i just speak about numeric numbers. the bonusses are to big that this is possbile right now.

i have some very nice movies in my "topsecret" castle...under my bed
where u can easy see how u can spoil everything.
the mainproblems are still the fatique and the routin-in-all-directins. (i wont speak about realistic, as long the most units are not realistic)

imo, it should be possible to win alone vs 2 armys, this was something i always loveed in STW, the possibility....u could win with ur skill. nowu get hit in ur back by the fatique and the not avalaible defensiv points. so the game is reduced to an all the time 2d game and....just-be-offensiv-and-make-it-fast.

plz do me a favor and read it correct and all, and fogive me some of my english mistakes.

koc