Lancers!

[Swoosh So]

I played some custom games last night as the spanish me with 12500 koku the comp defending hillyinland maps with 25000 between 2 ai defenders, my army was always the same 3 or 4 arbs h0, 4 chiv seargents h2, 4 lancers h0 and 4 knights of santiago h0 and i kicked serious butt everytime those lancers and heavy knights are very heavy duty units h2 almost all of them by end of battles Give one of them an weapon upgrade and its like a juggernaught


Are most battles online cav based? i cant see any use for maa at all.


SwoOooOoooOOooooOsh

[youssof_Toda]

Spanish cav is way overpowered jst like the byz inf. Try to beat european factions with muslim factions, esp with elmhoheads its hard to counter the spanish heavy cav but it's more of a challenge. Maa are usefull for attacking spears in the back if you power them up enough they can break em relatively easy.

[TosaInu]

Battlefield awards are still active in MTW. It caused 'problems' in STW with some units (H0 Kensai, ninjas, mongol cav, to some extent even with no-dachis). It does create even worse problems in MTW. Let's hope that it's removed (useroption) in the x-pack.

Buy a v0 lancer and end with v3.
I can't believe a unit gains 6 combatpoints within 10 minutes (that's some 40% gain in case of the lancer). A moraleboost because you do so well, ok, but it takes much more than 1 battle to improve your skills like that.

Best (ihmo) would be a separation of morale, weapon and armor upgrades. A morale 14 lancer already performs better on the field than a 8 morale. No use to increase the combat too, not like that anyway.

It wouldn't matter (much) for the SP campaign if battle awards were provided after the battle instead of during but it would make the multi and custom games a lot better.

[andy119]

lancers are way overpowered. I beat a guys inf and then came his lancers and he routed my beat up turks:(. Amp knows all about lancers damn him lol Only thing that can beat them really are good weapon pikeman and swiss halberdiers and other lancers

[Swoosh So]

Pikemen? how can they beat lancers? they are slow and crappy maybe in a 1v1 but if u take pike men to counter lancers in a 3v3 your allies will get stomped big time
So count pikemen out unless u static defending Anyways how much is an h2 pikeman unit? prolly far to much to justify taking them as a counter And anything less than h2 for a pike man unit and you got severe morale problems in your force

Just read my post and it may look abit arrogant it wasent supposed to look that way So hope noone takes it that way





SwooooOOooooOOOooooooOOoshOOoOoooOowl

Fear the wolves

[CBR]

Well there are several problems.

We play with so much money that a Lancer's 800 florins is not a problem compared to the chiv knights 650 florins.

Its really a late era unit.

After the patch we only have the basic pike unit which is crap.

No difference in speed. Gothic knights are very slow but Lancers have the same speed as the rest of the heavy/medium cavalry in MTW.

Halbardiers are supposed to be good anti cavalry troops but have crap morale (ofc you can buy chiv foot knights but spend 100 florins more and they come with a horse..)



But maa have lots of uses. Cav heavy armies can have problems in a 3v3 or 4v4. Last night Yuuki and I felt so confident that we charged 12 knights as what looked like a nice gap between 2 armies in a 4v4...it didnt go as we had planned heh. Its a lot about timing.

Yes AMP is good with his all cav army but he doesnt win every time


CBR

[Swoosh So]

Me fucy and cape used to take 1 full cav army in 3v3s and 2 normal armies and we never lost a game this way, Mind u dont think there was too much compitition in the 3v3s

[Knight_Yellow]

Lancers used to my favourite unit but eventualy i got bored with them so i continued to play the spanish and replaced my lancers with militia seargents who at val 4 are only 1300 florins and in my experience r vry good at almost everything, i ususaly charge lancers with fued foot knights then flank with militia and it works so well that ive never lost due to a lancer charge.

[Swoosh So]

I havent seen amp in action in mtw yet but ill be getting the replays soon I Think an h0 lancer unit is the best value for money unit in the game

[Kraxis]

I too feel that Lancers in the hand of a good player are quite overpowered.

I have played with the Turks as of late, and I have defeated the dreaded Lancers easily with my JHI, but I think that is more because of the enemy not knowing not to engage them, or else they could just have moved them away.

I have found that only a few units can really lay a smackdown on the Lancers, Swiss Halbardiers, Chiv Foot Knights and JHI with the latter as the best by far.

The rest is more a matter of time before routing.

[Puzz3D]

The Lancer is not really overpowered, but it is part of an already powerful Christian faction. In a game where the "special" faction units are generally anemic, here is one that is actually good. However, a 680 florin v1 Order Foot easily beats it, so it's not a case of it being an unstoppable unit. Just last night I was in a battle where Byz and French armies defeated two Spanish armies that had 8 lancers between them, and the Spanish were commanded by very good players. It is the best cav unit in lush and temperate, but it's also the most expensive. The Gothic Knight may better it head to head, but it's slower. The Lancer is going to get those battlefield upgrades if it gets loose amoung enemy units where it can pick and choose the best targets. It will just gobble up scattered units, and become invincible in the process. You cannot easily overcome the lancer's power with upgrades on other cav types because the upgrades cost 70%. Upgrades are a case of diminishing returns because you are only getting a 44% increase in combat power for that 70% cost. Of course, you get +2 morale as well, but it doesn't matter because morale = 8 is already high enough.

The battlefield upgrades damage the game balance by allowing powerful units to increase their power making them way too powerful compared to their original cost.

[Kraxis]

Oh, forgot that I have in my mod made Lancers run at 16 and charge at 20, and that seems to have made them much less scary, have also lowered their cost by 50.

[Swoosh So]

Stat for stat and ability its the best unit on the market. V1 order foot cant be compared as they are foot troops and only an idiot would charge a spear unit with cav. Anyways the lancer can break off combat easily unless hemmed in.

Swoooooooooooooooooosh

Unmovable with my opinion on this

[Kocmoc]

i dont fear the lancer
it isnt so overpowered, the big problem and 1 of the great advance is the fatique.

puzz is right here any spear eat teh lancer adn there are some armour piercing units wich "love" the lancers as well, so u can counter this unit. but lancers give just too much supportbonuss.

if u are the defencer and keep ur lances resh u cant realy lose....if u hide in the corner and fight a frontal attack, u never can lose.

this game just hasnt any tactical points, its reduced to a bonuss and fastclick combat game, where u dont need to play so well. if the unitcombination and bonusscombination decide about the outcome .....

i remember some treads, months ago where we spoke already about the "strong" cavs, many said ....hey its pretty good... im surprised.... some changed theyr opinion...... pffff

the mainproblem are the chargebonusses with a charge of 21 or 26 they make every tired unit routing (except the spears...) u can easy rout a 46 men MAA unit...if u use,
no defensiv positions in this game....

yes, u can defend with spears vs the cav, but u cant defend it everywhere....and btw....... the spears kill cav just too slow the spears win, but in a very long time.

i played a lot games online and if i go and watch replays and analyze the most games, i jsut notice that 95% of all the games are not interesting/challanging, and there are so many nice units wich are absolut useless, that the current "tactic" isnt avalaible for me..... there is no tactic, thatswhy i say its just a 2D game.


koc

[Puzz3D]

Swoosh,

The spears are the rock, and the lancers are the scissor. The lancers didn't charge into the spears. The spears charged into the lancers. All I know is that 8 lancers went down to defeat in the battle, and I didn't see a single one charge into a spear.


Kocmoc,

More players are starting to figure out the best units, and, as a result, the battles are becoming more tactical and more interesting. I am seeing fewer losses due to inferior units being rushed off the map these days. All these 100 units has made for a very confusing time online. Some players look at it as a challenge to find the best units, but some find it to be too much work. Ultimately, one faction will probably emerge for lush/temperate and one for rocky/desert as the best, and just as you have to take the best units to be competitive now, you'll have to take the best faction to be competitive later.

[Orda Khan]

I agree with you Swoosh, Lancers must be the most powerful unit because you don't seem to get a game where there aren't any, if you know what I mean. I also agree with CBR, they are a Late period unit and personally I would banish them from High, I am fed up with seeing them.
Valour bonuses during battle was always, in my opinion, nonsense. I don't care how many a certain unit kills, in doing so they in turn lose men and energy and are therefore weaker than when they began. Give this to Lancers and they become a real game spoiler.

I've had it pointed out to me many times that this is not reinactment, in my mind it is.

Just a question..... Why is the Lancer so good at melee?
Their main weapon is now rendered useless and they are reduced to a mace or similar weapon while they are very restricted by their armour.

......Orda

[Dionysus9]

Swoosh,

The lancer cant break off combat if they are first engaged with Alan Cav and then spears march over in wedge/engage. The alans will keep them pinned in place. Now, of course, this takes 2 units to ensure you kill the lancers, but they get polished off fairly quickly with a wedgie of spears.

[ElmarkOFear]

Try playing the almohad faction and see if you like their spears. They are weak and rout before the lancers even get near them. Even when upgraded. Also, last night I had a byz infantry army val 3 arm 1, with spears val 4, on the wings get run over by AMPs all cav lancer army. He came at me straight on my byz/spears were on hold and side by side. When he got near my front line, his lancers in loose formation and single row across, swept across the face of my army. my army was on hold and had the morale bonus for flanks being covered, and they still routed within the first 10 seconds of the fight. This proves that byz might be overpowered, but all cav armies if used in this manner are much worse and will normally win unless the cav player makes a mistake. It is almost impossible to beat unless you do like some do and hide every game on the side of the map and buy the same army over and over again. The game was much better pre patch concerning cav.
I agree with Tosa that the valour gain during battle needs to be turned off or made an option. Also, spears should be put back to where they were pre-patch or cav knight units made more expensive. Until this happens, no matter what certain people keep saying, an all cav army in the good players hands will win almost every time.
Also, Kocmoc is correct in most of his criticisms. He sometimes has a hard time explaining them, due to his unfamiliarity with the English language, but they are valid. There are many ways to solve some of these items, make byz inf more expensive, make arbs more expensive, make cav knight units more expensive, change the zone of influence (this is the size of the area a unit has when influencing the morale of the enemy units) and as a bow to the playability of missile units, make handgunners more expensive and increase the kill ratio of arrow units.

[Crandaeolon]

A quick question regarding combat values: I think something was capped at 20, what was it? Can anyone confirm?

IIRC, neither attack or defense value may be over 20 in any situation, so even if V4 W3 Lancers in Wedge would charge into the rear of a unit, the actual attack value stays at 20 maximum. (the theoretical maximum attack in that case would be [base 5 + charge 8 + valour 4 + weapon 3 + wedge 3 + rear attack 7 + charge into rear 2 + pushback 6]=38. Whoa.)

Personally, I'd like to see the Lancers get a reduction in speed, perhaps a small drop in combat ability as well. 1 combatpoint or thereabouts. Also, it would be nice to be able to either turn the combat rewards system off or see that the rewards are based on the _actual_ value of the units, not just valour level. In the current system (I believe) a v4 peasant is considered to be as "valuable" as a v4 CMAA. Not good.

Edit: IMHO the balanced army is still the best choice online. I don't see all-cav or cav-majority armies as a problem, AMP is the only player I know who has consistent success with them.

Sword units definitely have their uses, post-patch they can tear up spear formations. They CAN also hold their own against cav, IF they can take the initial charge.

[Dionysus9]

Well I've beat Amps lancer lines with a balanced byz army. It wasn't easy and it was really close, but it can be done.

4 v4 spears are a must, but Byz Inf can stand up to lancers.

[Puzz3D]

Elm,

You can beat that all lancer army if you take the right counter army. However, since the lancers are faster than infantry, you have to adopt a defensive posture. This means, if the all cav army doesn't attack, the battle is probably a stalemate. I don't think taking all of any one unit is in the spirit of the game especially when it's a known powerful unit. It seems to be more of an exploit in the same way that taking all monks was in STW, although the florin tax is going to be pretty high for 16 lancers. And, is charging forward in wide lines some kind of fun tactic? To me the game seems intended that you maneuver individual units as modules for best matchups via rock, paper, scissors and for flanking. The wide lines take that away as a game element. If it seems like an exploit of a game flaw and is unfun, then how about not playing that way?

Another problem in your game is the choice of Byz vs Spanish. The factions are not "balanced" against one another. To my knowledge, Creative Assembly has never claimed that the MP game was balanced. Now if the players refrain from taking extreme armies and play with the implied 4 max that the +4 tax suggests, the faction imblances are not amplified as much and the battles are more interesting. It's up to the players to find the balance and to make the game a good experience for themselves. I wouldn't discount desert maps as a way of getting away from the heavily armored units. You don't like lancers? Then use a rule to limit them when you host. I see you playing late and saying "no siege", but taking handgunners which are one of the most unbalanced units in the game. I know you don't take too many of them. I use the French in my lush/temperate battles. Their special unit is the inferior Templar Knight. I'm starting to see players relinquish Byz or Spanish and trying other factions because I'm not ramming the superior factions down their throat. To me the game is a construction set, and if you want to use it to play seriously competitive games, you would have to designate the exact same armies for each contestant so that the players start the battle as equals. Even fun games would benefit from designated units because you could incorporate all the units into play. As it stands now, you can't use the obviously inferior units unless you want to use them as a handicap.

The only alternative I see is for the players to balance all the units and all the factions. Now who would use such an unofficial stat? I would hazard a guess that less than 20% of the online players would be interested, and I think that's being optimistic. Creative Assembly doesn't use a method that will ever achieve the degree of balance that people here want in the MP game. The expansion is just going to be more of the same of what we have right now. It'll have a different balance I'm sure, but it won't be balanced.

[TosaInu]

You're right CBR. But we play at extremely high florins (15k is high ihmo) because morale is so poor.
At 8k you can spend avr. 500 florins per unit.
At 15k you can spend avr. 937 florins per unit. V0 lancers (800 florins) become a very fancy choice then. Playing with upgraded units give problems with other units as well. We need a morale slider. As well as fatigue- gamespeed- and maybe ammo sliders.

ShadeCrandaeolon, that's about right. But it's the difference between units A attack and units B defense that's capped at 20. So a very high attack helps to override a high defense. Using your figure of 38 for the lancer, consider a unit that has 30 defense. Then the lancer only 'does' 8 (not completely sure for a backstab).

Elmark. Considering the lancer. I guess it's indeed a late unit. That can be changed in the stat. Al that's needed from there on, is play at lower florins ^. Adding about 4 morale to all units will in effect allow to play 8k games as if they are 15k. Probably even better since you aren't swamping static bonusses. Changing the morale for all units is childsplay when you use CA's 1.1 excel files.

I agree about the spearcosts. 1.0 spears were quite strong, knights became cheaper (some a lot), non spear infantry received extra combat and spears were made more expensive in 1.1. A tweak too much.

[CBR]

Quote[/b] (TosaInu @ Dec. 19 2002,20:21)]You're right CBR. But we play at extremely high florins (15k is high ihmo) because morale is so poor.
At 8k you can spend avr. 500 florins per unit....

Yes that why Im working on "the perfect" stats. We need to reduce the florin level and still be able to have battles without massive routs. Most likely, as Yuuki says, not many will use the modified stats but we can only try and do our best and see what it brings.

CBR

[AMPage]

So what's next? After talking about artillery, byz inf and lancers being over powered, what's the next unit in line?

Lancers do have a lot of counters, so they are stoppable if you know what your doing...

I wish every faction had atleast 1 over powered unit to balance things out.

If you take out the lancers and make them in late era only, then the next cavalry unit in line will replace the lancer, may not be as effective, but still deadly.

[Cheetah]

Quote[/b] (AMPage @ Dec. 19 2002,18:29)]So what's next? After talking about artillery, byz inf and lancers being over powered, what's the next unit in line?

dont forget the handgunners

Quote[/b] ]
Lancers do have a lot of counters, so they are stoppable if you know what your doing...

[Magyar Khan]

HORSEARCHERS and ARCHERY in general amp.... they are too weak.

[bosdur]

Quote[/b] (Cheetah @ Dec. 19 2002,14:08)]

Quote[/b] (AMPage @ Dec. 19 2002,18:29)]So what's next? After talking about artillery, byz inf and lancers being over powered, what's the next unit in line?

dont forget the handgunners

Quote[/b] ]
Lancers do have a lot of counters, so they are stoppable if you know what your doing...

And Naphta throwers after that

[AMPage]

Handgunners? Bah They are just fine, it's just people expect them to be weak melee troops, being as it is they have a gun (which is almost worthless).

Yup, horse archers and archers are to weak, but i think longbowmen aren't to bad. Maybe all bow units should be that powerful.

Naphta throwers? To weak right?

[bosdur]

Probabaly yes against your all cav army amp, but a massed naptha throwers can be as devastating as artillery. I once played a game with elmo(2-4 naptha throwers) and glassheart(8 naphta throwers) and one other guy. Another of my ally was gone, and I only had my general left. The enemy I think still have 80% of their forces. When they're about to finish elmo and glass, they couldnt even maintain a melee, always routed because of the bombs. We ended up winning the battle. As you said ppl always whine, when the byz infantry and lancers are balanced, I figure the gunpowder unit is next, including naphta throwers .

[Kocmoc]

some things


CA said long time ago....... "the game is balanced, if u play at valour 0" (they mentioned the multiplay)
so plz dont tell me they never tryed to balance the MP, they changed the spears and cavs to balance it, but sadly they dont understand the MP.

not the lancers nether the byz or other units are the "overpowered-monsta-units", u can beat the lancer and u can beat an all cav army.

ofcourse u cant beat this with byz, as byz havnt any spears, they always get hit by the cav´s

all this speaking about some units are stronger and some not makes me tired, coz this isnt our real problem. we have to look at this great major problems first, not at this small problems, wich are realy easy to change u can set the rulesz in the game and easy say....hey we wont se more than 2 lancers...or what ever.
the major probs u cant change in the game, so better we focus at this points.

fatique need to change
missles need more power
stronger spears
a bit weaker cav
hillbonusses
reducing of some supportbonusses
maybe change of speed of diff units

just a few points.