How justified is this war?

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Its funny, the whole UN thing. Why did they not care that Saddam was hiding (or least acting like he was) things that we now seem to think were not WMD??? Did the UN forget their own resolutions regarding a failure to comply in allowing inspectors to look at EVERYTHING???

And about this ILLEGAL this and ILLEGAL that; what are you talking about? What law says a country can't defend themselves? If a nation saw an enemy army marching towards its borders, the first nation would probably work to preempt said army before it could damage the first nations property, correct? And while the situation in Iraq did not have that same immediate-ness quality, I believe it was reasonable to suspect (from Iraqi unwillingness to cooperate and from past expressions of having no love for the USA) that Iraq was working towards, if it did not have, WMDs and that it would use them against the US, either directly or indirectly. There's the added bonus that Saddam was a terrible leader, maybe a Nasser-Hitler cross. I just to see why everybody else is crying so hard over his removal, I guess.

[Serpent]

I say it again Saddam Hussein wasn't best possible leader... Still not all of Iraqis hated him... and yes we are talking about Iraq not about is despotic country good place to live... Because it might be if you are leaders sonny side... Also I should say that it wasn't just some people... Im talking about towns that had parks ,children's playing outside ,library's ,Streets buildings that are not just about collapsing andliving in city... not just in some
bombard ruins and hastily build ed houses.

everywhere was shortage of medical supply's but that was actually because we did UN UK USA...did not let the be...
And please don't tell me that it is because this madman...
WE do have plenty of madmen in this blue planet.

Lainaa[/b] ]Yeah, all those countries with despotic mass-murderers tend to be pretty safe. I mean, when you're not allowed to breath out of line under punishment of death for you, your family, and most of your neighbors, there aren't going to be many killers roaming the streets, right?

Think about if you would have chance live in Iraq where you have some money house job and just enough food to survive... You see news you read papers ...to you Iraq is center of the world and around you there is peaceful silence...Still your wife is sick and doctor says there is no medical supply's to treat him....Next day you read from papers that Saddam has had negotiated whit Iran to give some medical supply's...During next day doctor smiles treats your wife and you walk by magnificent Saddam statue.
Then you read about Americans that are saying that your Saddam Hussein your leader is evil.Come on live is getting better every day... This man would love Saddam Hussein and hate America.

At the same time happens some thin that he docent know about Saddam Hussein is killing Kurds and making them forget thinking about freedom. At the same time they are wanting it more and are actually ready to do anything to get it. Next thing what he does is killing political prisoners and trades some that he could get some medical supply's.

Now what about northern Ireland few years ago...or what about tsetshenia or...Spain ...Morocco ,Algeria ,Nigeria Burma...America just compare murder rates/population whit Canada or Germany... Now I just may have offended some one so I have to say that every country have flaws... But when you are living in country where somebody is killing 400 people per day you just may not know about it.

It is wonderful live in country where is freedom of speech... But what if you just think you have it... or you just love your leader blindly so much that someone must be just stupid ignorant greedy or something like this .

Now think that about that same man Who now have lost his son, wife, house,dog and almost everything that he owns because one bomb...Same man lost his friends other relatives and mayby even job... when he was working in factory. Same man found shelter from friends place... Now somebody has his friends house and killed his friend... Police wont do nothing because he says it was his home in a first place.
Then you see that magnificent statue shattered. Can you say that this man is happy. Also he is not only one. These man also judge terrorism and actually would kill any terrorist that they could find... Problem is some of them think that USA is just another terrorist croup.

Right now things are little better for this man. And now he has new friend but they hated Saddam... Still they hate Coalition more.This is because he wasn't only one who suffered from war and he is not only one who is still suffering more than when Saddam was ruling.

[Serpent]

By the way I voted 10-20%... Because in the long run I think this hurt ed more Iraqis than Saddam could have...But there is so much good things too that has happened or may happen. In this case war was not solution.
But sometimes future great nation must suffer so they can prosper later.

Cheers mates..Im goin to sauna whit my loyal mäyräkoira 12-pack and I wont drink all of..just some..

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Quote[/b] ]In this case war was not solution.

Then what was?

[Serpent]

I have no Idea... CIA has now rights to kill anyone... on the other hand killing Saddam Hussein would have meant Civil war or new leader from baath party . Others may try also take leadership in Iraq...Still result would have been Anarchy. Or let the people in Iraq step forward and take what belongs to them...This is not something that should have been far lookt.Simply Iraqi people know how they could do it and many ware ready to do it...
again total anarchy... But this kind of civil war is healthier to nation in the long run. We have many European country's that proves it.

But if you think that war was necessary I think you are wrong... To me it wasn't. And if war itself was necessary but not in Iraq... I most say that there is better targets and despotic rulers that are far more evil.

I think this is to grim...lets but smiley

[HARALD THE RUTHELESS!]

Quote[/b] (Alexander the Pretty Good @ July 01 2004,17:16)]

Quote[/b] ]In this case war was not solution.

Then what was?

Have you been playing MTW too much? There are other sollutions than war, you know.

NO WMD has been found. Fact. WMD was just an incentive for the Bush administration to go to war for political gains.

Due to the wave of terrorism the invasion released. Iraq is a worse place now than it was under Saddam.

Its just me but I dont think Bush agenda was to crusade against evil dictatorships when he invaded Iraq. The Bush family certainly never cared for the Iraqis before, why should they now?

[Lt Nevermind]

Quote[/b] (Alexander the Pretty Good @ July 01 2004,21:04)]Its funny, the whole UN thing. Why did they not care that Saddam was hiding (or least acting like he was) things that we now seem to think were not WMD??? Did the UN forget their own resolutions regarding a failure to comply in allowing inspectors to look at EVERYTHING???

And about this ILLEGAL this and ILLEGAL that; what are you talking about? What law says a country can't defend themselves? If a nation saw an enemy army marching towards its borders, the first nation would probably work to preempt said army before it could damage the first nations property, correct? And while the situation in Iraq did not have that same immediate-ness quality, I believe it was reasonable to suspect (from Iraqi unwillingness to cooperate and from past expressions of having no love for the USA) that Iraq was working towards, if it did not have, WMDs and that it would use them against the US, either directly or indirectly. There's the added bonus that Saddam was a terrible leader, maybe a Nasser-Hitler cross. I just to see why everybody else is crying so hard over his removal, I guess.

Quote[/b] ]Its funny, the whole UN thing. Why did they not care that Saddam was hiding (or least acting like he was) things that we now seem to think were not WMD??? Did the UN forget their own resolutions regarding a failure to comply in allowing inspectors to look at EVERYTHING???

The UN forget their resolutions? When the UN was kicked out of Iraq ('97 IIRC) one of the leading inspectors (forgot his name) evaluated that they destroyed _at least_ 90% of all WMD's and other forbidden weapons that Iraq had. The most were destroyed at the beginning of the 90's and there wasn't frankly anything left to destroy. So good by for UN since.

Quote[/b] ]And about this ILLEGAL this and ILLEGAL that; what are you talking about? What law says a country can't defend themselves? If a nation saw an enemy army marching towards its borders, the first nation would probably work to preempt said army before it could damage the first nations property, correct?

Correct, if you see someone marching towards your borders by all means prepare for it. Would you please tell me how exactly Iraq prepared to attack the US? There should be plenty of evidence if you want a right to declare war, right? You're trying to say that an offensive war can be legal??

Quote[/b] ]And while the situation in Iraq did not have that same immediate-ness quality, I believe it was reasonable to suspect (from Iraqi unwillingness to cooperate and from past expressions of having no love for the USA) that Iraq was working towards, if it did not have, WMDs and that it would use them against the US, either directly or indirectly.

Unwillingness? After kicking the UN out, Iraq showed his @$$ towards the US and re-inviting them once the US began to be aggressive. How nice of Saddam. Forgotten the guy called Hans Blix? Here's a quote from him:I don't understand how someone can have a 100% surance that Iraq has WMD's but a 0% surance where they are located.

I don't really understand you with 'working towards', if the coaltion had found _any_ proof that Iraq had WMD's or was 'working towards' them, they would've shouted it to the media.

LOOK, WMD's are finally found, YIPPEE, the war was justified after all
Or then not.

Blix found nothing, the US found nothing, there was NOTHING.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Serpent

Quote[/b] ]CIA has now rights to kill anyone...

Really. I didn't give them that rihgt. I doubt that you gave them that right. Nobody else to my knowledge gave them that right. What did you mean when you said that?

Quote[/b] ] on the other hand killing Saddam Hussein would have meant Civil war or new leader from baath party . Others may try also take leadership in Iraq...Still result would have been Anarchy. Or let the people in Iraq step forward and take what belongs to them...This is not something that should have been far lookt.Simply Iraqi people know how they could do it and many ware ready to do it...
again total anarchy... But this kind of civil war is healthier to nation in the long run. We have many European country's that proves it.

Well, I doubt killing Saddam would have been a good thing. First of all, all of Europe and much of the rest of the world would still be mad with us. Second, the civil war that could have broken out would probably ened in a theocratic Islamic state - worse than Saddam. They would be even less friendly towards us then before killing Saddam. Plus, Saddam's sons, the likely candidates for next ruler, were sickos like their dad. Again, not much better.

HARALD THE RUTHELESS

Quote[/b] ]Have you been playing MTW too much? There are other sollutions than war, you know.

I may have been playing too much MTW, but in this case, the other options were pretty much exhausted. At least the good ones. Sure, we could have ignored Iraq, but that is dumb. We could have put more sanctions on, but those only starved Iraqi children, not Iraqi rulers. And no one else wanted to do anything (UN = useless).

Quote[/b] ]Its just me but I dont think Bush agenda was to crusade against evil dictatorships when he invaded Iraq. The Bush family certainly never cared for the Iraqis before, why should they now?

Did you forget something? Gulf War I? The Bush family certainly cared during that little war (and Bush senior could've gotten Saddam and prevented this, but that's not the point). It would seem that the Bushes cared about Iraqis, quite a bit in fact.

Lt Nevermind

Quote[/b] ]You're trying to say that an offensive war can be legal??

Going back to my example about the enemy army marching to your border. What if the only way to stop said army is to move troops into the enemy country? To utilize a vital choke-point to gain an advantage? To have a hope of stopping that army?

Quote[/b] ]The UN forget their resolutions? When the UN was kicked out of Iraq ('97 IIRC) one of the leading inspectors (forgot his name) evaluated that they destroyed _at least_ 90% of all WMD's and other forbidden weapons that Iraq had. The most were destroyed at the beginning of the 90's and there wasn't frankly anything left to destroy. So good by for UN since.

But the Iraqis still KICKED OUT the UN people. It was more forced than if the UN people just said, OK our job is done. Especially if there was 10% of the WMD not acounted for.

And I never said I was 100% sure that there were WMDs. I don't recall if Bush said 100% that there were WMD. It was REASONABLE SUSPICION.

And by the way, hindsight is 20/20.

[Serpent]

Lainaa[/b] ]Serpent
Quote
CIA has now rights to kill anyone...

Really. I didn't give them that right. I doubt that you gave them that right. Nobody else to my knowledge gave them that right. What did you mean when you said that?

About This CIA thing Im not 100% sure...maybe like70%
I remember article about this and I fonded headline from Internet.

Was it during or before Afghanistan crusade I don't know.
and have they canceled this I dont know.

And whups.. Did I say this

Lainaa[/b] ] on the other hand killing Saddam Hussein would have meant Civil war or new leader from baath party . Others may try also take leadership in Iraq...Still result would have been Anarchy. Or let the people in Iraq step forward and take what belongs to them...This is not something that should have been far lookt.Simply Iraqi people know how they could do it and many ware ready to do it...
again total anarchy... But this kind of civil war is healthier to nation in the long run. We have many European country's that proves it.

Alexander the Pretty Good Killing Saddam part I think we think pretty much same way.Damn I cant remember ..too much drinking and more.
Still no hangover just memory loss and scar in my hand.

But people ware ready to take over in Iraq and if they would have done it it would have more healthier than todays situation where people gets it from someone they dont trust....we all hope they takes it as an kind gift and whit open mind for better future.


Happy birthday for....me? jee

[Xiahou Liao]

Sorry, I forgot about this topic. Lol...

If you do not live in the U.S. ignore some of this post.

Look:

There will always be protaganist and antagonist. Why even bother arguing about something we can not change? Our country is at war deal with it.

The country was built on war.

Not god, I hate when they say it was built on god.

It was built on the blood and sweat of men young and old. We are a violent country, We have to deal with it. I support my country 100%.

and you have to remember, the media only shows the bad parts of Iraq. They don't show the good parts, because that wouldn't be too juicy for ratings. It is the same in reverse to the Arabics. It's the media's fault

Oh...and I do have a disregard for human life. Unfortunately, For great men to rise, the Little men die somewhere. It is the rotation of the world...and I'm not going to defy the stars, why? Because they'll twist and make you pay if you do.

[G-Con Daniel]

I think this war was just for the oil... nothing else.

[Jihad2Death]

We can`t go and invade a country just because we don`t like the leader.What's next we invade Cuba? People want to blame the CIA,NSA,and other departments,and while the do hold some of the blame,they shouldn`t get most of it. Let me give you a hypothetical that explains my point of view.Let's say you decide to hit golf balls in the back yard(lets assume you have a HUGE back yard)You hire the best golf pro in the world to help you with your game.So you and the golf pro go out back,and he tells you that with the club you have chosen,the MAX you can hit the ball is 150yrds.Now the next house from you is 175yrd,so there is no way you can hit the next house.So you drive away and hit the ball 180yrds into a window.Now who has to pay for the window? Yes the golf pro's gave you bad info,but its you who decides what to do with the info.Same with Bush,he may have gotten bad info,but he decided what to do with that bad info.HE DECIDED

[Xiahou Liao]

We shape the future, we rape the world.
- The Kovenant, The Human Abstract


'nuff said.

[Despot of the English]

Quote[/b] (G-Con Daniel @ July 11 2004,18:50)]I think this war was just for the oil... nothing else.

Nah. It was a war fought on flawed intelligence and a need for the revenge.

[Inuyasha12]

Either way that country won't stay like that too long, there are too many differences, and hate between those people. It should not have been a country in the first place, as soon as we leave(u.s.) the whole place will go crazy.

I say leave and let them sort out their own problems with their own lives. Too many american, and british lives have been lost already

Oh and take the oil too