VI Balancing

**Cheetah** · 02-03-2003, 11:28

hello longjohn,

very nice from you to visit us

I quote Crand (see at the end of post) because I agree with all of his suggestions

Basicaly, cavs need not be weakened (except lancers) but spears should get a bit more bonus vs cavs or should be cheaper a bit (not much&#33

.

I agree with CBR's suggestion too about morale. Either give us a morale slider or modify the morale off option to give only +6 morale points.

Talking about sliders, could you give us sliders with which the host can set the upper limit for each basic unit types? (i.e. for infantry, cavalry, and artillery) This way it would be easy to host max 5 cavs, max 4 artillery, etc games.

An other nice feature would be -as suggested by AMP- to indicate the morale of the units on the unit icons. Either with numbers, or with some icons, or with some colour code.

An other suggestion about icons, is that it would be nice if one could tell whether the unit is fighting or just chasing already routed units. Currently both states are indicated with the swords on red background. It would be nice if the background would be different in the case when the unit is chasing an already routed enemy unit. It is important because there are units that you do not want to use for chasing and there are units that you do not want to use for h2h fighting. Currently the only way to tell the difference is to check out each unit one by one, which is very time consuming in the chaos of the battle.

Last but not least, is it possible to make the new factions playable in MP? I mean the Swiss, the Aragonese and the Hungarians

Thank you

Cheetah

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]Here's another list, in order of importance (IMHO):

1. Spears should be stronger against cav. Perhaps an increase/modification of the bonus vs cav? (Current bonus: +1/+4; new bonus +2/+4 or +3/+3?)

2. Archer units should have increased firepower. Not more than 15-20%. (Modeling the composite bow would be nice

)

3. Valour increases in battle should be removed from MP.

4. Lancers should either lose a combat point (melee) or go slightly up in price; their speed should also be reduced to the level of Gothic Knights.

5. Horse archers should be roughly equal to normal archers in accuracy. (They can't fire on the gallop anyways.)

6. Byz inf should get a slight price hike. (+25-50 florins?) Not too much, since Byz inf are the strength behind the Byzantines.

7. Handgunners should get a price hike. (MF_Ivan, no one uses them for their shooting ability, but they are very powerful in melee when upgraded.)

8. Arbs should be moved to late era only. Arb and Xbow accuracy should be slightly reduced when compared to archers; X-bows should have a faster reload time than arbs. (from 15 to 12?)

**Cheetah** · 02-03-2003, 11:44

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ Feb. 02 2003,21:37)]Unit cost adjustments:

5) A return of upgrades on ranged units to be the same as non-ranged units. The current discounted rate causes some ranged units to become very strong when upgraded several levels, such as handgunners and janissary infantry to name two. Those two units end up with 14 combat points when upgraded to v4 which is better than most regular hand-to-hand infantry units in a 15k.

IMHO the upgrade cost of ranged units are fine. The only overpowered range unit is the handgunner. Janissary inf is far from overpowered. First, they cost too much to upgrade to v4 in a 15000 florin game (at least I have not seen anyone to use v4 jan.inf.); second, it is the only decent sword unit available to the turks.

**Mithrandir** · 02-03-2003, 12:52

I agree with almost all above, and apreciate the option to give some feedback, however I don't agree with the removal of order troops in early.

The way I see it things are nicely balanced in early, removing f.e. teutonic knights,knights Templar &most of all order foot would seriously underpower them to the muslim factions.

Muslims get saracen infantry, which are equal to chiv seargs in early,the byzantines get byz inf (with teutonic,hospitaller &knights templar as nice counters). With the removal of orderfoot, christian factions would have to use feudal seargants, which are nowhere compared to their muslim&byz colleuges.

Then again, I'm not a master of stats, or a good player for that matter. But that's just my look on things.

I'd also like to see the Longbows given a slightly higher range than pav arbs. They're useless as they are right now, at least a waste of unit space which can be better spend with either an exta pav arb,or a good melee unit.

one last thing (bug?) Are Italians supposed to get italian infantry in early? (they get it anyway).

**Brutal DLX** · 02-03-2003, 13:37

Hi,

all those suggestions make sense, but there's another thing that just occured to me, I don't get to play MP a lot, but I think right now it isn't possible to buy a better star general for your army, if this were to be allowed, it would give an interesting twist such as do I spend more money on that extra two stars or rather upgrade this unit or buy more of them... a higher star general also gives more morale to units in his vicinity, so that would also help. I think it could be implemented without too much trouble, only the cost for the general upgrade is a major issue as it has to be the exactly right amount of cash per upgrade so as to not unbalance the whole thing...

so, in short,

- add the feature to buy command stars for your general.

(I hope this doesn't exist already and I was just too stupid to see, in that case I beg your pardon & vow to look at that selection screen more the next few times..)

**CBR** · 02-03-2003, 14:04

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ Feb. 03 2003,08:58)]sorry but who fear a pav in high?

missles are just useless, u can easy rush and juts dont notice the missle, we use the missle like old days, but thats more a tradition than a useful action.

Horsearchers?

I dont know how missiles and range works..could the "formula" be changed a bit so short range fire will be better than it is now?

CBR

**Aleborg** · 02-03-2003, 14:23

Hey, just a couple of things.

Totally agree in upgrade the level of horsearcher. Now are practicaly unusefull and in STW i spent many nice moments with this unit.

I also miss some unit like kensais in STW. It will be nice to have a great knight or something like that.

Same with hassasines, not very useful. Ninjas in STW were very funny so pls try to make them more usefull

Thx for all, very nice to see u asking here to all of us.

**Puzz3D** · 02-03-2003, 15:49

Cheetah,

This is a consequence of playing at higher florins. Ask Kenchi_Mo about v4 Jan inf in 15k games. If morale in VI is left the same as it is now, then these are the kind of balance issues you get at 15k:

Handgunner (175 florins) at v4 cost 947 and have 15 combat points and 12 morale.
Jan Inf (350 florins) at v4 cost 1489 and have 14 combat points and 12 morale.
Feudal MAA (175) at v4 cost 1461 and have 15 combat points and 10 morale.
Chiv MAA (250) at v3 cost 1229 and have 14 combat points and 10 morale.

The Jan inf are on a par with non-ranged shock units at v4 and they have the bow which is apparently already better with LJ's adjustments. So, I asked for a retuurn of ranged unit upgrade costs to be the same as non-ranged and the valor upgrade to improve archery accuracy more than it does now. The reduced cost of upgrading ranged units causes the hand-to-hand balance between ranged and non-ranged to shift as you change florins. The game is supposed to have the balance of the low end where 350 florin Jan inf with 6 combat points is 40% more expensive than 250 florin chiv maa with 8 combat points. At high florin the v4 Jan inf is 20% more expensive, has the same combat points and higher morale than the v3 chiv maa. So, the balance shifted.

**Cheetah** · 02-03-2003, 17:08

Yuuki,

I see what you mean, but as you pointed out, even at high florins the JI are more expensive than either the CMAA or the FMAA and the FMAA has 1 more combat points. Of course, the JI has a shortbow but IMHO it would be complete waste of florins to use such an expensive troops for ranged duel. That is, I do not think that the bow makes such a big diffirence that would overpower the JI vs CMAA or FMAA. Well, at least I have not seen anyone who was able to exploit the hybrid abilities of JI to full extent. But definitely, I will ask Mo

All in all if the JI were upgraded like swordmen then it would be near to useless IMHO. Remeber this is the only sword the turks have.

Well, you might be correct after all

it depends how much the archers will be improved. If much then it might indeed overpower the JI, but I do not expect too much improvement for the archers and they are not overpowered with the current stats.

**tootee** · 02-03-2003, 18:26

Just a question, is the JI belong to the class of archers or infantry?

**Cheetah** · 02-03-2003, 18:33

I use them as swordsmen

but that they are upgraded like archers. It seems that this is the discrepancy that Yuuki wants to avoid. However, IMHO they are too expensive at v0 (350) in comparison with other swordsmen so actually it is their "archer status" (i.e. lower upgrade cost) which makes them useful.

**Cheetah** · 02-03-2003, 18:36

Handgunners are a different story because they have the same cost at v0 as FMAA thus they end up a lot cheaper at v4 than FMAA or CMAA.

**Dionysus9** · 02-03-2003, 20:35

Hi Longjohn Byz Inf and Lancers are of most pressing concern, handgunners too (in late).

Arquebusiers in Late should also be toned down a bit. The problem with Handgunners is primarily that their defensive stat is 3, which is sky-high for a missile unit. Arquebues have the same problem. IMO their defense should be dropped to 2.

Handgunners also have the high morale (4) which should probably be dropped to at least 2. Watching Handgunners stop a Lancer charge with a blunderbus and a parrying-dagger (or short-sword) is pretty fantastical.

Cost wise, your guess is as good as mine.

I think BYZ inf need to be at least 225 florins.

Just my 2 cents.

**1dread1lahll** · 02-04-2003, 03:49

Hi Longjohn, really good to hear that adjustments are forthcomming, The units you mentioned are the main mailfactors, however if possible ide like to see the adjustments made on the basis of their value; Their are a number of units that are not equil to others even though the same amount of florins is spent on them, in a best case situation units costing the same should be roughly equil....
And plz ditch the Pavise Arbs;.... they are so effective and so cheap that only a general doomed to defeat makes use of the vast number of archer units.....
As for Cav arch, they are fine... I play early era almost excluisively, and use them to a great extent, they are great in early..... they are only rendered useless in high and late (as all missiles) by the Pavise....
Increase the range of the short range missiles units plz..
(napa-javelin-ect) the range is so short as to require too much micromanagement for people to want to use them.
Plz return the gonads to spears units, at least allow them to be effective aginst cav..(all the whinney Ten-year-olds that bitched about their pretty cav general not being able to role over every thing have long departed the game).
Cant belive people want to increase power of archer units, high and late eras are near stagnent cause of Pavise; the vast array of archers units could shine through if this single unit were deleted or moved to late only..(before you counter-bitch people, play early, use a missile other than Pavise and you will see).
And last... just a thanks to the folks at C.A. for asking for our imput...

**Crandaeolon** · 02-04-2003, 15:08

Sorry fellas, can't resist chiming in again.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] Increase the range of the short range missiles units plz..
(napa-javelin-ect) the range is so short as to require too much micromanagement for people to want to use them.

Excellent point, lahll. Javelin units would be so much more useful if one could just leave them at skirmish mode; currently the skirmish mode can't be used because of their short missile range. (Naphtha is not as bad since they need to be micromanaged anyway.) I'd propose increasing the javelin's range to 1700 or 1800 and changing missile velocity to match (about 90 would be enough).

Also, as Puzz (or someone else) pointed out, the longbows need their missile velocity increased (to about 160) to fully utilize their range of 6000.

However the things I don't fully agree with...

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]And plz ditch the Pavise Arbs;.... they are so effective and so cheap that only a general doomed to defeat makes use of the vast number of archer units.....

They don't need ditching, just some adjustments. Lowering arbalest and crossbow accuracy would be my personally preferred solution; I've shot several types of bows and x-bows in RL and IMHO crossbows are not more accurate than bows.

The pavises are actually one of the smallest issues in missile unit balance. Those who play with me know that I almost never take pavise arbs; they are simply not that great compared to normal arbs, and the normal arbs have roles that the pav arbs simply cannot do because of their slow speed. So, the slow movement speed at least partially compensates for the pavise, although a greater difference in price could be warranted. Pav arbs appear cheesy simply because everyone takes them b/c they (somewhat falsely

) believe that they are the best missile units.

Cav archers are at their best in Early era, I've lately been playing with a cav-archer army in Early at 6k or 7k florins. Cav-archers are useful against impatient enemies, but if the opponents keep their cool and don't do anything stupid like scattering their army or facing shield-equipped units the wrong way, the cav-archers can't do enough damage. They can weaken some units, but the entire arrow supply of a single HA unit can kill at most about 25% of a typical Early era unit (Feudal MAA, Order Foot, Byz inf) in a real-life battle. Or at least that's the most _I_ have ever managed, real cav-archer pros may be able to do better...

**Mithrandir** · 02-04-2003, 15:22

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Mithrandir @ Feb. 03 2003,05:52)]I agree with almost all above, and apreciate the option to give some feedback, however I don't agree with the removal of order troops in early.

The way I see it things are nicely balanced in early, removing f.e. teutonic knights,knights Templar &most of all order foot would seriously underpower them to the muslim factions.

Muslims get saracen infantry, which are equal to chiv seargs in early,the byzantines get byz inf (with teutonic,hospitaller &knights templar as nice counters). With the removal of orderfoot, christian factions would have to use feudal seargants, which are nowhere compared to their muslim&byz colleuges.

Then again, I'm not a master of stats, or a good player for that matter. But that's just my look on things.

I'd also like to see the Longbows given a slightly higher range than pav arbs. They're useless as they are right now, at least a waste of unit space which can be better spend with either an exta pav arb,or a good melee unit.

one last thing (bug?) Are Italians supposed to get italian infantry in early? (they get it anyway).

ah, another thing

,

muslim factions get camels, which can beat chiv knights&the like...

**Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe** · 02-04-2003, 15:49

My 0.02 USD.

Make spear +2/+4 against cav, and increase their moral by +2; that shall make them slightly more effective against cav and somehow prevent early routing. Sword get +1, to keep a morale edge over spear.

MTLG needs some improvement in accuracy. Both MTLG and shortbow needs some better armor modifier if they want to do anything in High/ Late game against heavier troop.

Louis,

**Puzz3D** · 02-04-2003, 16:54

The abrs are not what stops a rush. Arbs will generate very few kills in a rushed situation, and, if someone has a lot of arbs, a rush is the correct way to counter them. The static nature of some battles is by choice so that the arbs can use all their ammo. The arb gives the game a ranged aspect. This unit generates about 2 kills per volley at max range every 15 seconds. A cav unit can charge them and suffer only 2 to 4 casualties before engaging. The problem starts once the cav engages because the cheap upgrades for ranged allows arbs and xbows to become so strong in hand-to-hand ability that most cav can't beat them and even the mounted knights such as chiv knight have a tough time. These cheap armor upgrades are also giving pav arbs more of an edge over archers since they become impervious to arrows at v0w0a3. Moving pav arbs to late will certainly help archers in high era, but the advantage in range of arbs is a big advantage since you can shoot without receiving any return fire and that's just a fact there is no way around unless you make the range the same on all units. In early, archers don't have to contend with arbs, but archers are so weak that you don't need any archers at all. You can take all hand-to-hand infantry and cav and do fine.

I'd like to see these cheap upgrades on ranged removed, and some way of playing low florin games with better morale be put in place. Of course, the safest thing to do is take the game as it's now played at about 15k florins and make a few cost adjustment on the units that everyone sees as unbalanced and improve archery a bit. If that's what will be done, then I'd like to see +2 morale on spears. They run away too easily now even in 15k games and you can't upgrade them much to increase their morale because they are relatively expensive.

**Swoosh So** · 02-04-2003, 18:06

Id like to see hold formation actually hold formation, its a joke the way spears wheel around, If u want to kill a spear unit just hit it with 1/4 of your unit and it will wheel around exposing its flank dolt thats one of their major weaknesses (u must have spotted that 1 peeps), Also id like to see cav strength reduced, i wouldent get too set in your ways about the cav longjohn, alot of players believe they are over powered, even with some bonuses taken out they would still be strong, If a cav unit charges a pike unit and makes contact, it should break fast Im not keen on spears being the most powerfull v cav, after all it was pikes that stopped h cav not spears Also the cav archer need abit of tweaking though i cant see whats wrong with arbalisters at all

Oh and if you reduce the byzantine troops abilities or cost without reducing cav you will make the byzantines absolutely usless (i can garuantee it) Think closely b4 u do this please as the byzantines have hardly any anti cav just poor spearmen who cant resist the charge of cav

**Kongamato** · 02-04-2003, 20:36

The long reload times of Arbalests and Crossbows have made me want a better idea of when they can fire. They are sometimes irregular and inconsistent in their firing, but I would like to know when they are reloaded and ready to fire. Could they be given the same reload notifications as siege weapons? Easy-to-do timed volleys would add lots to the game.

**FasT** · 02-04-2003, 20:51

why not just get rid of armour and weapon upgrades for MP??
And concentrate on balancing units..without them????

I like to see that.......

**longjohn2** · 02-04-2003, 22:05

I rather agree with you Fast :-), but they're there because people asked for them, and they're not going to get taken out at this late stage.

Thanks for your continued input everyone, sadly I only have time for a few small tweaks, so you can all rest assured that I'm not going to be doing too drastic, but hopefully they'll be a number of small steps in the right direction.

**FasT** · 02-04-2003, 22:08

ok NP but @ least we maybe movin in the right direction i guess...........
Is VI gunna get 5 patches? or 1????

**1dread1lahll** · 02-05-2003, 02:23

Ill agree with fast... upgrades only tend to create imbalance, maybe down the road they can come out....
Cant agree with Puzz on the valor upgrades on missiles; archers get the same discount (people tend to take low valor missiles anyway) as pavs, and pavs still too effective,.... slowing down there reload rate just means they will have ammo longer, reduce there range is good... but they are still too effective vs other missiles, bumping to late period would be fine with me..then I could stop crying when when my ally tells me cheerfully "Dont worry, I've got Longbows"

**Puzz3D** · 02-05-2003, 05:50

If we could play at 5k florins without morale so low that most of your time is spent trying to rally units, then the upgrades wouldn't be an issue because you couldn't afford many upgrades. A high degree of routing also makes fatigue more of an issue because units tire fast when they are routing. I see the rational of applying the upgrade cost of ranged units to only that portion of their base cost that represents their hand-to-hand combat and morale, but doesn't that impact the rock, paper, scissors design by allowing ranged units to become hand-to-hand units when upgraded enough? It seems the arbalester is the only ranged unit that can maintain it's usefulness as a ranged unit in high florin games because total kills become more important as morale goes up, and that's the only ranged unit which can get high total kills. It takes a long time to get those high kills, and it's easy to end up with very few kills with them in a quick attack situation. If you knock down the arbs a lot, then you'll end up with an online game that has essentially no ranged aspect unless the players simply agree to each take a certain number of ranged units.

I believe the fact that pav arbs beat archers is intended to show the progression of technology. Moving the pav arbs to late will help archers in high, but they are still probably not going to beat regular arbs. The longbow would probably be able to beat them or at least weaken them so much that they become ineffective, but that speed parameter problem that is not allowing longbows to shoot their full range should be fixed.

Playing at lower florins makes the base cost difference between units become more of a factor. So, you'll get better compensation in terms of better hand-to-hand units if you have the lesser type of ranged units. Also, the -2 morale from taking casualties from a bow weapon is more likely to trigger a rout at low morale. However, as much as the group I play with has tried to play at 5k florins, they find the gameplay less enjoyable than at higher morale. At higher morale the cavalry is toned down a bit relative to infantry, and units can be utilized a little more independently. I don't think anything confuses newbies more than low morale because they can't figure out why their units and even their whole army runs away so easily. Isn't it the newbies who mostly play at 99,999 florins, and the vets who are supposed to be playing at 5k, but most of the vets I know don't like 5k games.

**TosaInu** · 02-05-2003, 14:07

I play Totalwar games since the alpa demo for shogun was released in January 2000. I did make a few 'historical' battles, and the only available thing was morale.

When I purchased the game in May/June 2000, I found armor and weaponupgrades too. I thought: I can upgrade a units willingness to fight and endure stress (morale), I can increase their fighting (weapon) and I can improve their armor.

But those upgrades were not available in custom battles. Being an 'advanced newbie' with the settled idea that honorupgrades only affected morale and that an upgraded ashigaru would still be choped by a monk, be it that he would endure better, never thought of pitting a H9 ashigaru against a H0 monk. I was also under the impression that a weaponupgrade improved a units specialty (ie better spear vs cav for the yarisamurai, a stronger bow, or better arrowheads for archers).

The weapon and armor upgrades were also not present in online games (I started somewhere autumn 2000). Erado was doing one of the Question Times, so I for one issued the request to include those upgrades.

I was utterly shocked when I saw yariashigaru eating my nodachi and anything else that moved. Does honor have so much impact?

I gradually discovered, that the Honorupgrades not only increased morale, but also increased the basic hand to hand fighting of any unit. A weapon upgrade for the archer didn't give a better bow or arrows.

Increasing of morale on the battlefield does make sense if the unit does well, increasing his fighting skills (certainly not the amount we have now) does not.

There should be 3 upgrades for a unit:
-morale, more means you can endure stress better and fight longer, but not better.
-weapon. This depends on what kind of unit you are. It's either a better weapon or a better technique to wield it. A swordsman gets a stronger sword, being able to pierce armor or wield it faster, increasing his melee. A pikeman learns a trick to effectively stop cavalry and kill the horse. An archer becomes a marksman, gets a stronger bow or shoots faster. You won't get units performing tasks they never could.
-armor. Protects against missiles and against meleeweapons in hth, like it is now.

A unit with morale fights, but hardly kills. A unit with skill can kill but refuses to fight (that is already true: try a honor -12 nodachi with 20 melee and 20 defense against a few standard H2 ashis). These are the extremes, there are many possible combinations that will result in a good performing unit for a given situation.

Add to that a host settings menu that includes which upgrades can and can't be purchased and how many, and groups of players can adjust the balancing immediately to their own liking and needs. A game like Unrealtournament allows mods to be made, but it also includes loads of built in configurations/mutators available for the host and anyone can use it: gamespeed 10-200%, friendly fire on/off, instagib, sniper/rocket arena, special power ups available or not. If you miss a custom file, the server just uploads it to your computer. A real mod lives peacefully together with the default game, waiting to be loaded.

What online players, and offline players too, really need is the ease to play something different. The 'default' in STW was 6k, it increased to 10k in WE, in MTW it's 15k. That is because morale is getting worse. The morale off boosts morale with +12. The majority doesn't like this either. Not to mention the cumbersome logging out to enter Options to change it. Playing at high koku/florins just to get better morale to be at least able to stay on the field unlocks other problems: pumped yariashigaru and nodachi in 10k STW WE games rendering warriormonks useless, lots of lancers, knights, pumped ByzInf and cavalry withstanding arbalesters in 15 k MTW.

**Swoosh So** · 02-05-2003, 14:32

Why not include an upgrades on/off option ? Options make a game more varied and can help to please all.

Swooooooooooosh

**TosaInu** · 02-05-2003, 14:54

Yes Swoosh, host settings menu contains that together with speed- morale- fatigue and ammo sliders (or better input boxes), performance options, restricted camera, gametype (advanced 16v16 teamgames, 4 team games, reinforcement game -mapbugs in STW already enabled a kind of reinforcement game) auto upload of missing files on/off, rushtax settings (1-16 units and how severe), toggling units off (no gunpowder in late), disabling factions, battleawards on/off, which stat (select one like you can select maps). Of course a CA preset to help new players and a save profile for the experienced goup of players to enhance fast setting up.