View Poll Results: Feedback on Multiplayer after VI release -

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37. This poll is closed
  • MP now totally rocks! No flaws at all!

    1 2.70%
  • MP is now much better overall. Balance is better.

    9 24.32%
  • MP is now a better experience. Still some imbalances.

    11 29.73%
  • MP is roughly the same, balance is as good as before.

    5 13.51%
  • MP is roughly the same, some imbalances still remain.

    3 8.11%
  • MP is now a worse experience, though balance is better.

    3 8.11%
  • MP is now much worse, balance is worse than before.

    1 2.70%
  • MP has entered the bottomless abyss of suckage.

    4 10.81%
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Thread: Feedback on Multiplayer after VI release

  1. #1

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    There are 2 "portions" in the poll; one is about the overall experience of Multiplayer in Viking Invasion, the other is about balance. The choices should be fairly self-explanatory.

    Please vote only after a few days of playing VI. And, once you vote something, feel free to add some commentary to the discussion thread. BUT IMPORTANT If you decide to enter into arguments, please be polite and try to prove your points by actually playing the expansion and by providing examples.

    Here's a link to another VI feedback thread in Main Hall, which seems to be dedicated to the SP part so far. (VI feedback)
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    Now that there's some feedback, I'll gather important points and concerns here in no particular order, and all are subject to change, so check back here once in a while.

    In Viking Era:

    - Mercians are the only faction with Militia Sergeants, one of the most cost-effective melee units. (Fix: Perhaps Mil Sarges should lose one point of attack or go up in price? I don't think they were originally intended to be one of the best hand-to-hand units in the game...)

    - Some have called the Mounted Sergeants overpowered.

    In Medieval Eras:

    - The Fearsome, Amazing Organ gun is supposed to have a range of 3000, but can only fire up to 1600 on level ground. Set velocity to 110 to fix it. (110^2/4=3025.) *Update: According to LJ, the Organ Gun is balanced to use the range of 1600.

    - v3 Byzantine Infantry cost 860 florins in 1.1; in VI they cost 983 but with +2 to morale. As the result of +2 to overall morale in MP, Byz Inf may have become relatively stronger than before.

    MP in general:

    - The separate foyers are causing division in the community.

    - If any one person quits or loses connection to server the game may crash for everyone else as well. (Does not happen always, but fairly frequently judging from all the comments about it)

    - Overall +2 to morale had very little effect. A better solution could have been to increase the morale of spear units only.

    - Fatigue is not optimised for the larger maps that most players like to play. (The simplest fix would be to speed up the recovery rate. Double it perhaps?)

    - Currently, running units get the same bonus than units that are actually charging. As the result it takes less micromanagement to orchestrate large charges. This is both a good thing and a bad thing, but IMO units that are just running shouldn't get the full bonus. Perhaps half bonus if units are moving at run speed and full bonus if they're moving at charge speed? (Units won't move at charge speed unless they're ordered to charge or they charge impetuously.)

    - Spear prices were unchanged, spears may still remain too weak vs. other infantry, compared to their cost. (One way to increase spear and pike effectiveness while preserving the need to stay in formation could be increasing the rank bonuses of spears.)

    - Now that there are more and better Javelin units available, it would be important to make sure that they can use Skirmish mode properly on flat ground to avoid oncoming infantry. I'd suggest a range of 1800 and a velocity of 85 to fix it.

    - Quite a few players are complaining that performance has decreased in comparison to 1.1.

    - Using the "-ian" command line switch enables the player to move the camera anywhere and to tilt it to any angle. "Restricted camera" does not prevent players from using it in MP.




  2. #2

    Default

    Here's what Cran's Amazing Magic 8-Ball said (without seeing the expansion, that is):

    "Overall experience" will probably be voted as better than before.

    "Balance" will be voted better with some imbalances still remaining, unless the special units and other additions _really_ screw something up.

    * Update after release: 8-Ball might have been right after all, but there's a lot of spread in the votes.

    Now, some specifics:

    Missile units and missiles in general will get a slight boost in usefulness. Nothing major, and there probably won't be any big changes in strategies involving missile units. If Pavs get moved to Late, regular Arbalesters will simply replace them in High. If there's a +2 to morale and the "discounts" of missile units are not removed, it will be harder to rout those Arb lines than before. It may come as a nasty surprise to those who think that Pavise Arbs are more difficult to rout than regular Arbs; they are _not_.

    * Update after release: All Arbs got moved to late. It remains to be seen what the effects of this will be.

    Depending on the boost to horse archer accuracy, they may actually become a useful addition to armies rather than a novelty unit. Hybrid horse archers (Boyars, Byz Cav) will probably benefit from this more than the lighter horse archers.

    The relationship between cavalry, swordsmen, spearmen and polearms will remain roughly the same. Swords will still beat spears in frontal attacks, but the fights will be longer and the swordsmen will suffer more casualties. It will be more meaningful to use Wedge formation to break spear formations.

    Halberdiers and other polearms will still lose to swordsmen, but they probably tie with spears, maybe win with a small margin if the spearmen are armoured.

    Cavalry will become a bit weaker because of the increased overall morale and valour gain removed from MP battles. Frontal cavalry charges against any type of unit will be less effective.

    Depending on the boost that spears get, their status will either not change at all (polearms will still be the better anti-cav units) or they will become roughly interchangeable with polearm units, both being able to beat cavalry but losing to swords.

    * Update after release: looks like the hand-to-hand unit balance will change very little, if at all, in the Medieval eras.

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Cran's Ideal Hand-to-Hand unit balance would be: Cavalry ties with Swords in frontal attacks (Swords in hold/hold; cavalry does a lot of damage in the initial charge but if the Swords do not break, they put up a good fight), loses to Polearms and Spears. Spears win cav with least casualties, but the fight lasts longer than with Polearms. (So far so good, the current balance is quite close to this.)

    Swords beat Polearms and Spears, but lose if they attack cavalry head-on (Engage at Will on, or pretty much any situation when Cav and Swords meet head-on, both units moving/charging.) The fight with Polearms is bloody, especially if the Swordsmen have lots of armour. The fight with Spearmen is rather bloody and lasts for a long time unless the Swords manage to break the Spear formation. (Currently not quite like that. Close, but not quite.)

    Spears beat Cavalry and Polearms, but lose to Swords. (Currently Spears can't usually defeat Polearms.)

    Polearms kill Cavalry the fastest and beat heavily armoured units, but lose to lightly armoured Spearmen and Swordsmen.




  3. #3
    Guest FearofNC's Avatar
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    im a long way from saying that i know what im talking about... but these are my first impressions of vi

    cav are very weak.. ive been playing more with the viking era than the mtw eras... and this is just my first impression... but it seems that the cav are not anything like they used to be... not even like mi... the cav remind me of stw when 2 or 3 heavy cav were the norm..

    no improvment in archers... if there has been some i just dont feel it yet... this might be because the rush is sooooo strong in viking era.. in a few battles vs fucyuman.. we found missles were basicly not needed..

    the new troop... armoured spearmen... are very nice... they stand well vs swords and slaughter cav quickly.. other spear units are weaker and i havent found them efective .... yet... its still so early...

    my opinion on +2 moral is still in the works... but so far i dont like it at all... i noticed that units were standing and fighting much longer.. but this didnt lead to more flanking or manuver ... just more chaos... some units break very quickly some stand for unreasonably periods of time... it also seemed that units rallied quicker and more often making the chase phase of the battle very dicey.. units ralling on all sides and harrasing ur flanks.. im not saying this is a bad thing ...yet.. i just need some time to get adjusted... then ill decide if i really like +2 or not..

    my limited experience with the new mtw side -
    the 4 new factions are interesting...but not that strong.. the hungarians are probably the best of the noobs but the verdict is still out..

    moving pavs to late was a mistake... just my gut feeling for now.. but we will see i didnt really think pavs were that strong in mtw.. just that archers were very weak..

    more to come ive been here at the guild for too long now...need to get back to vikings and do some more playing

  4. #4
    Member Member Kongamato's Avatar
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    Javelin infantry units have been added for the Spanish and Russians. Are these going to add a new combat option or are they just novelty units?
    "Never in physical action had I discovered the chilling satisfaction of words. Never in words had I experienced the hot darkness of action. Somewhere there must be a higher principle which reconciles art and action. That principle, it occurred to me, was death." -Yukio Mishima

  5. #5

    Post

    A bit of a surprise which should please many players is that there are no arbalesters at all in high era.

    The additional MTW playable factions in custom/multiplayer by era are:

    Early: Argonese, Hungarian, Novogord, Papacy, Sicilians (no Russian)
    High: Argonese, Hungarian, Papacy, Sicilians
    Late: Argonese, Golden Horde, Hungarian, Papacy, Swiss

    Some important price changes on units are:

    Spanish Lancers was 800, now 850 (late era only)
    Chiv Knight and equivalent mounted knights was 650, now 675
    Byz Inf was 175, now 200
    Hangunner was 175, now 200
    Spears are unchanged

    Russians pick up an armored spearman and Lithuanian cavalry in high era. They also have the mounted xbow which I don't think they had before.

    HRE losses the swiss halb in high era which the Papacy picks up. There are no new units for HRE in high era.


    Archers:

    longbow: (can now shoot full 6000 range) lethality was 0.63, now 0.68
    shortbow: lethality was 0.63, now 0.68
    mountedbow: accuracy was 0.4, now 0.55 and lethality was 0.63, now 0.68

    Other ranged units are unchanged.




    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  6. #6
    Guest FearofNC's Avatar
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    sry for the mis-information on the new mtw factions... i only tried high era hence why i never saw the other factions... thanks for the correction puzz

    on the topic of the javalin units... i luved em fucy hated em... verdict is still out.. although i did trash his cav nicley with them, im not sure if they are cost effective compared to other units or if there space is better used by another unit... but they will not be a novality... they were decent enough to ensure they will be used in mp..

  7. #7

    Talking

    Hi NC,

    I checked the archer projectile stats after I saw your post saying they were not improved very much, and the stats bear out what you are saying. A 0.05 increase in lethality is quite small. The mounted bows got a significant 37.5% increase in accuracy though and the better lethality as well, and there are no arbs at all for them to contend with in high era. My position has always been that the arbs gave the game a ranged aspect, and I thought only pav arbs were going to late era. I guess there is a good historical argument for all arbs going to late. For better or for worse, high era will now play more like early era, but hopefully with better balance with the cost changes.

    I have some experience fighting against Almughavars in the all 20 mod, and I found them very tough in hand-to-hand fighting. I just noticed that the Turks picked up Ottoman Inf in high era. I don't know how effective that unit is, but I believe some players like it quite a lot. Turks should definitely do better in high era with the arbs gone, but the Byz didn't loose that much with the modest price increase of the Byz Inf either. Russians have also picked up some anti-cav power, and those Boyars are going to be better now.




    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

  8. #8
    Member Member Magyar Khan's Avatar
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    new software is mostly 2 steps forward one step back
    Clan Wolves: 10 years in Total War
    visit us at wolves.magyarkhan.org
    and youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/user/ClanWolves
    and watch a Creative Assembly employee struggle in battle....

  9. #9
    Member Member Kongamato's Avatar
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    I think that the florin levels in MP games are going to go down a bit after my initial observations. Maybe 12500 or so.
    "Never in physical action had I discovered the chilling satisfaction of words. Never in words had I experienced the hot darkness of action. Somewhere there must be a higher principle which reconciles art and action. That principle, it occurred to me, was death." -Yukio Mishima

  10. #10
    One Time TW Player .. Member baz's Avatar
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    NC, as for the +2 morale, i think the idea is that the troops will play at the same morale levels as before, the difference being that you dont need 15k to get the morale that high .. anyway puzz will be able to tell us more about that.

    As for Arbs, i was under the impression that just Pavs were going to be moved, if Arbs have been moved all together i am surprised as now i think we will just use late era as archery is so crap vs armour, we all know how many unbalanced units are in late .. yet again it looked like it would work and .. oh well let me play it first

  11. #11
    Member Member ELITEofGAZOZ's Avatar
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    i haven´t got VI but all the informations i can read makes me confident...

    ...is there a new foyer for VI or is it the same one?

  12. #12
    One Time TW Player .. Member baz's Avatar
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    ive been trying to find out myself Gazoz, and it seems that (from what NC told me), that you are in the same lobby for both games .. but if you are running VI, you can only see VI games and vice versa .. this is good move imo and hopefully should not split the community

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  14. #14
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    this was 1 of the mainporbs as we got MI, that we got devided, now we dont see games but still are together, thats very good

  15. #15

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    thx for the news m8ty



    LRossaRikimaru

  16. #16
    One Time TW Player .. Member baz's Avatar
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    sorry koc seems i spoke too soon .. the ingame lobby in VI is seperate to MTW lobby .. just the gs arcade room that is linked together but it is faulty .. lmao

  17. #17

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    Unchanged spear prices? Damn.

    Yuuki or NC, did the javelin units get an increase in range so that they could use Skirmish mode properly? (In retail and 1.1 they would start withdrawing before they could throw their javelins)

    HRE lost Swiss Halbs but didn't get anything to compensate? ROFL, my favourite faction just became less strong.

    Horse archers got a much needed boost, though archery may still remain a bit too weak.

    Moving all Arbs to Late was a huge mistake, if the English still have Longbows in High era If that's the case, the English have the _only_ 6000 range unit in High Gah, I say 8-Ball predicts English dominance in High... the weakish Templar knights don't really matter if the role of cavalry is diminished a bit with +2 morale and no valour upgrades in battle. And, they got Billmen. Edit: Since no one's been complaining about this, looks like it may have been an overreaction. We'll see when more players get the expansion and play it.

    Turks got a _lot_ stronger in High with all Arbs in Late. Perhaps one of the strongest factions now.

    The news of a lobby separation is none too good either...




  18. #18
    One Time TW Player .. Member baz's Avatar
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    baz predicts .. we will all play VI late games, and play in an era where there is more imbalance than M:TW high .. the saga cointinues ..

  19. #19

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    There are still crossbows in High, they're almost as good as Arbs against armoured units.

  20. #20
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ May 08 2003,12:50)]Yuuki or NC, did the javelin units get an increase in range so that they could use Skirmish mode properly? (In retail and 1.1 they would start withdrawing before they could throw their javelins)
    I got the missile stats from Yuuki yesterday. No changes done to javelins but darts with better range but less armour piercing and lethality and apparently heavy spears with same range as javelins but more damage

    CBR

  21. #21
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ May 08 2003,13:03)]There are still crossbows in High, they're almost as good as Arbs against armoured units.
    Yes but only 5k range and 80% lethality compared to arbs.

    I know Im pessimistic by nature and havent even played VI yet but right now I just feel an urge to finish next version of MPwars as soon as possible..

    CBR

  22. #22

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    The 5k range would be ok without those Longbows...

  23. #23
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Kongamato @ May 08 2003,02:42)]I think that the florin levels in MP games are going to go down a bit after my initial observations. Maybe 12500 or so.
    Hm yes ... good question what the best amount would be. One problem IMO was that you could upgrade swords a lot compared to spears. 12.5K or even 10K might be the best. Then you dont have so much for upgrades and especially not for massive upgrades.

    CBR

  24. #24
    Member Member spacecadet's Avatar
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    Sounds like no Longbow rule games are going to start appearing soon..........
    (ps. who called for arbs to be moved anyway?........bah i always thought they were fine - not too strong and not too weak.. )

    Space


  25. #25
    Rolluplover Member Kocmoc's Avatar
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    to have the same moral liek we had right now, i think around 8k are needed. if we stillplay with 15k, than the +2 moral are useless imo.

    koc

  26. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (CBR @ May 08 2003,06:17)]
    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Crandaeolon @ May 08 2003,13:03)]There are still crossbows in High, they're almost as good as Arbs against armoured units.
    Yes but only 5k range and 80% lethality compared to arbs.

    I know Im pessimistic by nature and havent even played VI yet but right now I just feel an urge to finish next version of MPwars as soon as possible..

    CBR
    Well I wasn't holding out much hope for VI and the comments I've read so far don't sound too promising so I would say the sooner you finish the new MP Wars the better....

    .......Orda

  27. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (FearofNC @ May 07 2003,22:43)]my opinion on +2 moral is still in the works... but so far i dont like it at all... i noticed that units were standing and fighting much longer.. but this didnt lead to more flanking or manuver ... just more chaos... some units break very quickly some stand for unreasonably periods of time... it also seemed that units rallied quicker and more often making the chase phase of the battle very dicey.. units ralling on all sides and harrasing ur flanks.. im not saying this is a bad thing ...yet.. i just need some time to get adjusted... then ill decide if i really like +2 or not..
    Just what i feared... I hope it works out allright.


    "The mind is everything. What you think you become."

    "The whole secret of existence is to have no fear. Never fear what will become of you, depend on no one. Only the moment you reject all help are you freed."

    Buddha

  28. #28
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member CBR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by [b
    Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ May 08 2003,14:25)]to have the same moral liek we had right now, i think around 8k are needed. if we stillplay with 15k, than the +2 moral are useless imo.

    koc
    Hm 8K thats low heh..but could work I guess. A western "balanced" army would cost about 6.3k so not much left for upgrades.

    CBR

  29. #29

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    I started to gather some stuff into the first post, be sure to check it out so you can comment on existing points or add more.




  30. #30

    Talking

    I don't understand why Kocmoc says playing at 15k makes the +2 morale useless. The idea of higher morale was to make cav less effective and inf better. Playing at 8k basically throws out the +2 morale increase, so you are right back to the equivalent of 15k in v1.1. However, playing at 8k is still not low enough florins to limit the purchase of many elite units and many cavalry. I think you're going to have to play at high enough florins to use v2 Order Foot for spears and for infantry, in general, to stand up better to cavalry. I don't see upgrading to be as big a problem as low morale since you get dimminishing returns on valor at a cost of 70%, and what good is a defensive unit like spears that won't stand and fight. From the perspective of team games, I think you want units to fight longer so that allies have more time to come to the assistance of an ally who is under attack. You can try splitting the difference on this with something like 12500 florins as Kongamato suggests.

    I haven't confirmed that the battlefield upgrade is removed in multiplayer. I know it is not removed in custom battle.

    The community is split by VI since you only see VI players when you login throught the game. The only thing that seems to remain compatible from MTW to VI is maps. MTW savegames and replays are not compatible with VI. My suggestion when installing VI is to first reinstall MTW v1.0 to a new folder if you have the disk space, and then install VI over that. This will preserve your existing MTW v1.1 installation, and any mods, savegames, and replays you have installed. MTW v1.1 requires 1.7 GB and VI an additional 400 MB.

    There is no question that longbows are now the prefered ranged unit in high era, but they are not all that powerfull with the bow. On standing Order Foot at max range you get around 50 kills with longbows. Of course, they are also a very effective hth unit with the cheap upgrades.


    CBR,

    I think there is still a very important place for MP Wars in VI.

    _________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.


    Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2

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