Units tire to fast

[shingenmitch2]

Hey swooshie

Where u been online?

[tootee]

what a massive thread. i have headache following it. very nice readings, some nasty words, a bit of confusion.

key words:
tolerance of differences in opinions.

respect others' views, as well as game-styles (you can complain about it, but please dont label it as evil/wrong).

if you wanna shoot at someone's face, please start a new thread of appropriate title, so that it makes thing easier for me.. so that it wouldn't hijack a worthy thread.. so that I can close it, and give you a week or two. You feel good after venting your anger, and I can do my job much more efficiently.. and JF will not degenerate into just an exchange of nasty words. A win-win situation.

Total freedom-of-speech is just an idealogy for the ignorance.. no good effective organisation practises it.

---
NC understands the penalty of his act.. its a calculated decision he had made and I respect it.. so all, please respect his decision.. the 2 weeks stays.

[Magyar Khan]

i am not saying nc is too stupid to understand but i wonder if he understand it or i am stupid too. seems my topics attract many people.


symbol made a good point where he said that esp in stw mi u mak eyour own tactic. esp archery musket rock scissor was very nice. spears vs cav. the whole concept gives u feeling ur in control of your army and what u do with it. i have an mi replay donwloadable at wolf site on how u can attack 4th kawansaki with a balanced army, if i would replay that battle in mtw vi i think it shows the difference clearly.

about skills and different skills. i remember a guy in old shog/mi who always hosted 99999 koku games. the first game u loose, the second was much more even and the 3rd u win. why? cuz teh skill was in teh unitpicking and a little above average movement.

and rememeber Lordteds low koku games. too low for most but a different skill. but compared with the former exampla much more ways to solve the puzzle of breaking teh enemy.

in teh first example all unittypes were reduced to just 3 most valuable ones, ashis nagcav nodachi

in teh second almost any unit had his value, even the kensai, teh horsearcher and ninjas. one above average nmistake and the game was lost.

i didnt test it yet in mtw vi i think teh low florin games tend to limited use of units instead of increasing it.

all in all not a solid scientific case.

units tire too fast, splitting armies is dangerous, bunching them up is better, combat prevails shooting, horses in general are still most valuable trooptypes for the non-viking eras. wide lines are too effective and should be restricted by unit types. the list goes on. vi is better than mtw, but teh number of lol-battles are reduced but still available for the unaware.

[shingenmitch2]

I agree w/ most of what you said there Magy.

But part of the reason you can't compare STW 4th Kwan to VI 4th Kwan is that they ARE different games, with different units and some actual game mechanics differences.

Monks & muskets made play go in a direction in STW., the Super Ashi changed play for MI, play has again changed with the increase to Cav. and all other new units. One is not necessarily "better" than other, just different.

Also I have not been recommending games that are all V4 units and 99,999 Florins. I don't like that feel as much as i don't like 1,000 Florins. Shades of grey... not black & white. I only offer that at 15,000 things seem about right to me and is a nice balance point between the two extremes. I also find 12,000 okay. Lower than that is "too much rout," whereas 20,000 or higher per army I think is "too much hold. "

[AMPage]

Hi Mitch,

Yes, you're right that most of the time 9 out of 10 the unit that gets doubled will rout and cause a chain rout at low florins. It dosn't always happen that way, i've had chain routs stopped by allies coming in to help them *properly*, and i also lost a few even though i got a chain rout started 1st before he got one started on my other flank. The more skill comes into play for me here cause it's all about protecting your flanks best you can and if both are good players it's about doing the best 1on1 match-ups possible or trying to preform movement tricks (running a few units back and have the enemy chase you behind your lines to get blasted by missiles or doubled).

I think 15k to me is a little to much, cause you have some cav units that fight near death or till death as well as a few other units, and the 100 unit sized units sometimes take forever to kill off or can withstand a rear attack cause of there 100 unit size. At 5k games lots of units will hold just as long, if you keep moral up( protect flanks and good match-ups). And even if you get chain routed and no fully out sometimes you can still rally and win. I played NC in a few 1K games, i had him on the run, and he rallied a few units back up as i was fighting off his last unit, came back and won it with his cav flanking me.

Well.. Anyway everyone has there own feel for what's best and it's seems when i log on most like higher florins, so maybe it's just me, times are changing, i'm one of the few addicted to the fast routing fast gameplay style.

Hi Mag,

I agree with most of what you said..

Quote[/b] ]Mag
symbol made a good point where he said that esp in stw mi u mak eyour own tactic. esp archery musket rock scissor was very nice. spears vs cav. the whole concept gives u feeling ur in control of your army and what u do with it. i have an mi replay donwloadable at wolf site on how u can attack 4th kawansaki with a balanced army, if i would replay that battle in mtw vi i think it shows the difference clearly.

Very ture, in stw and mi the skilled player really prevailed, cause unit balance was good, unit sizes were mostly the same, rear and flanks hurt more, and you were in control of your army all the way.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
about skills and different skills. i remember a guy in old shog/mi who always hosted 99999 koku games. the first game u loose, the second was much more even and the 3rd u win. why? cuz teh skill was in teh unitpicking and a little above average movement.

Well in mongol era i couldn't be one of these guys who hosted 99,999 koku and was the mongols and i was the japs. No match-up matter and not even hill adv, he even had units facing backwards in a ball when he started and just marched uphill and attacked me with whatever came 1st and won no matter what. In the other era it was about monks, hc, and sometimes yari sam to counter hc, since units fought till death. Totally spoils it the main purpose of it all the *moral*.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
and rememeber Lordteds low koku games. too low for most but a different skill. but compared with the former exampla much more ways to solve the puzzle of breaking teh enemy.

Totally, it was about skill...

Quote[/b] ]Mag
in teh first example all unittypes were reduced to just 3 most valuable ones, ashis nagcav nodachi

Before the patch in MI all you really needed was ashi to win. All cause upgrades were to cheap and no in mtw:vi i hardly use weapon and armor upgrades, maybe some armor upgrades on missile units. And do i want to play with atleast 30k to use wep and arm upgrades more? Hell no.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
in teh second almost any unit had his value, even the kensai, teh horsearcher and ninjas. one above average nmistake and the game was lost.

Yup almost every unit, it still needed some tweaking but it was close.

Quote[/b] ]Mag
units tire too fast, splitting armies is dangerous, bunching them up is better, combat prevails shooting, horses in general are still most valuable trooptypes for the non-viking eras. wide lines are too effective and should be restricted by unit types. the list goes on. vi is better than mtw, but teh number of lol-battles are reduced but still available for the unaware.

Units tire to fast, yes they do cause people play at higher florins and units fight longer, thus tiring them out more, also bad weather dosn't help, i guess it's all for the realism tho. Splitting armies is dangerous, not always, since units fight for sometime. Combat prevails shooting, yes big time. Yup non-missile cav in general are still the best unit, cause that's what they wanted for historical purposes, not gameplay, even though this is a game *strategy game* that is. The wide lines wouldn't be as painful if all units had counters, like cav lose badly to spears and if we had a missile unit like the musket in stw/mi that could mow down head-on attacks like that. And the list goes on...

[Magyar Khan]

amp u doubling your post count this week

longjohn ha sa lot to ponder about, since the game-system and engine or at least the ideas behind the code needs a lot of improvments for rtw

[FearSimbol]

Quote[/b] (Puzz3D @ May 27 2003,04:22)]Simbol,

1.-

I don't want to see the game turned into a rush gamestyle where armies get blown away like a feather and you don't have enough time to react to situations. Of course, what constitues 'enough time' will vary from player to player. The final result would have to be a compromise.

2.-
The fast style and slow style gameplay would not actually coexist. They would blend into a new gameplay somewhere in between the fast and slow.

Hi my friend.

about number 1, i know you dont want that the question is what all people want.. you as beta tester and a powerfull guy in contac with CA people (and you do a great work) plz trie do what people want..

about number 2, you now that is not true, just jesterday Mo and you beat me badly and my game style is fast and yours is slow you make me slow down my game and you win after all, so my point is proved you can control all situations with right skils..

Ask magy, paolay and Kocmoc they dont play rush games and dont play fast game style like me, and when they face me they know how control my moves and make me slow down and yes they Beat me with slow style of game vs Fast style of game.

i am not saying we have to change the speed of the units, i dont like preatorians that is more like a arcade game, i am saying that if i want play fast i dont have the change cus my units will be in bad situations vs yours, cus my mens will be tired and lose moral...

You saw yesterday i trie rush Mo arches with my Cavs that was like 200 meters of run they lose 1 bar for that, and i put they behind my army for 7 minutes they never get again they 4 bar of stamina. that is only a litle Example (i know you ask reduce fatigue i only want you understand me plz, i dont want attack you, and maybe this word will reatch some important people that take desitions m8). And the worse is that now cavs not gain valor during batle so, now they get tired for run and rout now more easy

Hope you understand me.

bye all

M0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o0o

[Swoosh So]

Sigh* if only magyar and amp worked for ca, id be back in the battlefield I can dream

[spacecadet]

Quote[/b] (FearSimbol @ May 28 2003,00:12)]Ask magy, paolay and Kocmoc they dont play rush games and dont play fast game style like me, and when they face me they know how control my moves and make me slow down and yes they Beat me with slow style of game vs Fast style of game.

Being a very good player means that you can play differently depending on the situation, not in just the one way.

ps all this talk before about being able to charge through /sideswipe units etc...i can't remember the last time i could get my main infantry army to charge instead of walk slowly up to the opposing army....CTRL R, double clicks..nothing

Space

[Puzz3D]

Simbol,

I'm not in contact with CA. I have never been in contact with anyone at CA except on these boards. I didn't determine the gamebalance of MTW. I resign from the beta team. You happy now? Now is it ok if I express my opinon?

You say my second point isn't true, and then you go on to prove my second point with your example. I think you didn't understand what I said. I said, "The fast style and slow style gameplay would not actually coexist. They would blend into a new gameplay somewhere in between the fast and slow.". You see the words 'not coexist'? That means the fast gamestyle and the slow gamestyle would not both work at the same time. If you reduce fatigue, some new gamestyle which is faster than the slow, but slower than the fast would become the best one to use. This would come about by changing fatigue not unit speed. Is someone advocating changing unit speed?

Your attack failed and you were controlled in both of those games because your opponents were pacing their game closer to what is dictated by the game parameters. I think you also used spears, and that costs you combat power. You used wide line cav on me. It didn't work. The cav is weaker in VI, and from what I can gather from this forum most players wanted weaker cav. You were on the defender's side in both those games, but you attacked. In one, you left a hill to do it. After that game your ally said to me, "why did he attack?". That position had very good defensive characteristics. I can see attacking me in the other game because you had a 2 on 1, but it wasn't coordinated well. Your ally didn't attack until after you had been repelled.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about being down 2 bars in fatigue. There is only a minor penalty for that. We don't know if those bars are evenly spaced. Two bars may not mean 1/2 your stamina is gone even though it's 1/2 the bars. I was the one who had the greater distance to march, so I was down a bit also.

I have confidence that LongJohn will set game parameters to something he thinks will satisfy the largest number of people. Read my VI patch suggestions. The only thing I got was this one (which is a clear bug):

1) Longbow's speed parameter is too low for them to shoot their full range of 6000. They will go through a firing animation as thouigh they are shooting at max range, but no projectile is released.

[shingenmitch2]

I sure wasn't much of a help to Simbol that game.

Sorry m8

My naptha was late and apparently caught more of my ally than enemy --- DOH

[FearSimbol]

Well this talk will last forever yuki...


Yes i attaked both times i love to do it, but many times alieds dont respond like i am use to do it..

And btw the second batle i attack cus Mo attack, lol what i supose to do??? leave Mo die Alone

And yuki yes you can express all your opinion, hope Me, Nc, Koc, Mag and Amp too.

Next batle Yuki lets do it at 15K, with my Fears team m8s. hehe you will see the diference. you dont will triple team me easy this time lol, you send units to simba, also Tears and i haved Ruy in my front Simba cant win to that.

But you have to say too that we haved fun that 2 games or we not? i was laugting, also mo, and also micht2. It is not About fun????

[Puzz3D]

Simbol,

I think everyone had a good time in those games, and we were glad to have you join in. You were at a disadvantage being with players you don't normally teamplay with. We played one more after you left which was also good, and then everyone had to leave since next day was a work day. I think I played three 12k 3v3 games and one 4v4 12k game on flatinland maps last night. I thought the sides in those games were pretty well balanced, and we kept mixing up the sides from game to game. The attackers won every game despite the fatigue.

Oh I forgot. We're not good players, and so our game experience doesn't count. We're not qualified to say what is and what isn't a good game. This game is supposed to be all about offense with nearly no defensive capability, and we certainly don't want fighing to have much of an influence on the outcome. Battles shouldn't last more than 10 min unless you camp in a 4v4 and let your allies die, and then charge down from a hill and rout multiple armies as was done in STW. That's really great gameplay and great teamplay isn't it.

In the game where you had Mo as ally on the high ground to your left, in your position I would have moved up to my left closer to Mo when I saw the center attacker heading up that way. I was left attacker and had moved to center. I did say I understood why you attacked me in that situation once Mo was clearly lost, and it would have worked if your right hand ally had attacked a little sooner.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Simbol

I was the right hand ally. It started badly since we had Mo in our team. Team selection... that's the skill...

Yuuki is right we shall have move left to help Mo more.

Once he was dead, given the compact position of our opponents, there were little hope of being able to double Yuuki without Ryu and Tears coming really fast... Still, you are right Simbol, the best thing to do was to go for it before Tears regroups...

Now my problem was being mainly on foot (4cav... 3 Ghulam 1 Turco... you can only do so much with that but nice infantry), so sure, I saw your cav charging. And I went to attack yuuki, but by the time my guys made it to Yuuki line your cav was gone and dead... I fought a while with Yuuki. And Ryu charged you. I don't think your inf made it to Yuuki. And then game over.

I shall have anticipated your attack Simbol and moved earlier.. cause the horse /foot speed differential will make me late all the time.

Bad teamplay on our side; we let Mo die on left ( maybe that was a good idea...) and I was late to coordinate with your attack.
Bad teamplay, and bad play overall for me yesterday... I also screwed up big time the next game...

Hope I will do better soon, but the games were still fun to play

Louis the Simurgh,

[Surprise]

all i know is until i put on armor, carry a weapon, and a shield, i cannot know how fatiging it it to stand around or march around

[Tempiic]

Has someone tested out if there is a difference in fatique outcome by marching around in different formations? 1 line, 2 lines, 5 deep, wedge?

I can't find the relevant post, I have no idea where to look nor who even made it, but I believe it said that not the distance you moved mattered for fatigue purposes but the time it takes to get there....

[shingenmitch2]

Back in the STW days it was my understanding that movement in "loose" order saved some fatigue... perhaps because there was less effort in getting around trees and troops.

That may or may not still be true...

[CBR]

I have noticed differences in fatigue depending on formation. Units that are unformed looks like they lose a bit more too.

A unit deployed in column (max number of ranks) is fatigued quicker. IIRC I saw the same with using loose order. I used desert archers and nubian spears for the tests and could see a difference(desert archers are unformed, nubian spears are formed)

CBR

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Tempiic,

I have not tested it seriously but...

I think wedge helps turn around better, with less effort. There must be a kind of compromise between 1 line and deep columns... In deep columns, fatigues seems to be more important (traffic jam?), but on the other hand when you turn 90 deg with a 1/2 lines units, the out wing of the unit run and that tire them faster... Even worse with grouped units.

Not sure there is a simple answer, might depend on what kind of movement you are making; going straight -> 1/2 lines, turning -> more lines?

Interesting question... Will loook at that.

Louis the Simurgh,

[Swoosh So]

This topic is far too long

Phew

[FearofFucy]

And yes this threat is getting very long .So long that I skip most of it



.

And about NC

Quote[/b] ]NC understands the penalty of his act.. its a calculated decision he had made and I respect it.. so all, please respect his decision.. the 2 weeks stays,

We as the Fears, do not Accept what happend to him, that he got
but what can we do.Since you guys are the boss here

Honestly I think its


thanks mitch

Quote[/b] ]Fucy -- nice emoticons ... that one with the stick got me chuckling... remined me of Eric Cartman poking the snake...

hehehehe I just hope it puts some humor into the post

[Magyar Khan]

i need a mongol-horsearcher smiley gif-movie.....

[FearofFucy]

heheheheh

[shingenmitch2]

ROFLMAO

[Skomatth]

degeneration

[Magyar Khan]

cadet, somethimes a grouped armyselection dont show as running after ctr-r but they are if u look at tem closely

[RTKLamorak]

i believe that when units are grouped they move at the speed of the slowest unit (to keep em in formation) .. so when they run they run only as fast as the slowest units running speed. this may be wrong tho... i personally dont ever have units grouped when i want them to run as they definitely dont run the same as when they are not grouped.