5k florin battles suck!

[solypsist]

i play only small florin battles

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

I play with leftover form CBR army .



Louis the Simurgh,

[baz]

thnx for the reply Yuuki, im am sure that you did not change your mind without good reason and i do appreciate your concerns with the spears issue. Personally i prefer a game where the morale is a little more fragile.

all i can suggest is that we go for the morale off option, full-on, for inclusion in a patch

[Kocmoc]

as long we all are not act as a whole, we never will reach something. We should regroop, apart from some points we dont agree.....

We still agree about many ither points....if we dont try to find a way together, we just waste our time to speak about something.....but never change it.


many of us dont like the current gameplay.... we need a patch with important changes, if not we are lsot.


koc

[baz]

i completely agree kocmoc, that is why i beleive we must try to come to compromises as much as we can and i am sure that alot of issues that we do agree on should at least take first priority, then we can work on from there ..what are your veiws regarding a poosible morale off seeting that moves morale to around +4 instead of the original +12, therfore giving us not too much morale but enough to play at a lower florin level.

[Puzz3D]

My own opinion on requested changes that would have a chance of inclusion in a possible patch to VI, and that I think all here agree on are:

1) try to fix the cav sideswipe bug.
2) try to fix the MP game crashing when someone leaves the battle.
3) reduce fatigue rates to work better with the larger maps.
4) improve the performance of spears.

Add to this list as you wish, but I suggest keeping it general so we have a broader consensus, and so LJ has more freedom on how to address each issue. I don't say anything about changing the secondary settings of morale, fatigue and ammo because it seems there is great reluctance on CA's part to change those settings. I also don't say anything about the -ian because, if players can't agree not to use it in serious MP games and stick to that, I think we are in trouble. GilJay already posted that the fix would be complete removal, but SP players are going to want it left in.

[LadyAnn]

Solution to -ian:
Making camera angle selectable in replays, where you see all units anyways. Satisfy both SP and MP people. That's where the -ian switch was intended in the first place: to take snapshots of the game.

[EDIT:] If not selectable in replays, then perhaps the switch only works when you replay...

Annie

[Div Hunter]

What are you on about Ann? -ian works all the time in all games no matter the settings.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Div Hunter @ June 05 2003,19:37)]What are you on about Ann? -ian works all the time in all games no matter the settings.

Well, Div hunter, -ian is a kind of spolier for MP. The question raised by Yuuki is wheter to correct this spoiler or not, and his answer is no because there is no agreement on this.

LadyAn would like it to be corrected to work for replay only.

I agree with LadyAn.

Now, the question for you Div Hunter is would you like -ian to work for
1/ replay
2/ SP
3/ MP
4/ not work at all?

I think it might be worth a poll.

Louis the Simurgh,

[Div Hunter]

I think it should work for everything but MP becuse it is a spoiler, but can be very useful in replays ect ect and I like th wierd angles you can get with it

[Kocmoc]

i suggest to delete the +2 moral

the system is nice balanced at 15k, so better focus this amount of florin.

imo we could go back more than jsut -2 moral, make it -4
but this should be combinated with a bit weaker cav.

1 more important point is, if cav march fast, it shouldnt get chargebonus at all.

to the spearunit, we need a 60 men spearunit, for all factions, with a normal moral but a bit faster as other h2h units...


koc

[baz]

1) try to fix the cav sideswipe bug.
2) try to fix the MP game crashing when someone leaves the battle.
3) reduce fatigue rates to work better with the larger maps.
4) improve the performance of spears.

all these suggestions do seem sensible, it is nothing too major but will help out a lot .. the only debatable point is the spears, we need to be carefull to not return to a time when spears beat swords.

the first 3 points are standard and should be dealt with as bugs that need fixing

[Kocmoc]

baz, u can easy change spears without making them strong vs other h2h units

as we have now the special stats vs cav.....so there is no prob with this.

the unit shouldnt be to weak vs other h2h units, i suggest a good defence but weak attack. but very good attack and defence vs cav. the moral should be normal.

but 1 important point is, the spear should be faster as other h2h units, not much ...just a bit....to make this unit a bit weak, lower the armour to 1 or 2.
this will make the historicans a bit happy as the unit can walk faster without heavy armour

its also important, that the unit is 60 men and avalaible for every faction. we have enougth 100 men spears, they are to slow, the turning speed is too slow as well. u cant flank with 100 men so nice.
a 60 men unit will be great.

just make sure this unit eat a cav and can hold vs h2h units.

like this 1 (8) 7(15)


koc

[baz]

well i know it can be done koc but them adding a whole new unit is a little optimistic i feel

adjusting an existing unit is more viable, but i was wondering how we would go about strenghening the spear as you say we have some different options

increasing vs cav only
incresing vs all units
removing the push back from cav

what step should we take? why? and what will be the outcome? im just saying lets not rush this and discuss it fully

[Kocmoc]

Zitat[/b] ]well i know it can be done koc but them adding a whole new unit is a little optimistic i feel

adjusting an existing unit is more viable, but i was wondering how we would go about strenghening the spear as you say we have some different options

increasing vs cav only
incresing vs all units
removing the push back from cav

what step should we take? why? and what will be the outcome? im just saying lets not rush this and discuss it fully

ok, i can just speak formyself.

first, im 1 of the guys who want a challanging gameplay, i dont care too much about historical correct, if its possible ....nice. but first come the fun.

so here we go....


i want a complet new unit, like alan cav....avalaible for near every faction

the unit has just 1 job to do, eat any cav
vs the other h2h units they shouldnt win, but hold for a nice time. thatswhy low attack and good defence

removing the pushback from the cav.
yes absolut this was a very bad "improvement"
a cav should havwe a counterunit, but if a cav can pull back, with very low losses, from the only counterunit. well, than its something wrong.

if u move ur cav wrong, u need to get punished
and if u come with such unit and attack the cav, this unit should be dead....

to change a current unit wont work. as we dont have a unit wich could be changed, just a few factions has units, wich we can change to such a spear.




to increase the points wich should changed, i would liek to add this elite units. and the routing....

lets speak about it. the current chaos on the field isnt controllable, i would liek to see a less-chaotic routing...
and i hope we dont see in rome elite and normal units. in SP its nice but in MP it cause a lot of problems...

koc

[baz]

i personally play this game for gameplay, if historical correctness is including then thats brilliant but i dont see it as the main priority ..at the end of the day it could be 99% correct historically but if the game sux, it sux and no-one will play

[Puzz3D]

Baz,

That's an important point that swords beat spears. I think there is room to improve spears and still have them loose to swords. I was thinking that better spears would allow lowering the florins, possibly making 10k the most balanced place to play.

I don't have any objection to removing the +2 morale, and going back to the way it was in MTW v1.1. However, keep in mind that the game balance you see at 15k in VI v2.0 will change if the overall morale is changed. If the -2 morale was the only change made, the game at 15k would have roughly the balance we see now at 10k in VI v2.0. We haven't heard CBR's final conclusion about 5k games. Removing the +2 morale will affect those games, and there is no way to compensate by changing the florin level because the 5k florins is being used to limit the number of elite units such as cav knights that you can purchase. Raising florins to buy back the 2 morale defeats that purpose.

I can't go along with taking -4 off the overall morale. Kocmoc and I have a fundamentally different concept on the offensive/defensive balance in the game, and we are far apart on that. We can see that gameplay and balance is dramatically affected by small changes in morale. If you look at your pole results, most players voted for 15k or close to it in VI v2.0. Taking -4 morale off will make 15k play more like 5k with tons of cav, and there aren't enough florins in a 4v4 to buy back the 4 morale points, so you loose the gameplay we have right now in VI v2.0 at 15k which is what the majority of people are using.

[spacecadet]

Koc, Baz,

Is this Cav pushback thing anything to worry about? I can only say from my own play that whenever ive tried to pullback a cav from any half decent unit its engaged (excluding archers etc), then that cav is gonna be severely damaged / start routing.

About having a specialised cav eating cav unit - while it would be nice, im not really sure how great a change it would make from the current method of matching cavs vs cavs that everyone does.

Finally, the chaotic routing. If you'd asked me when MTW first came out, then i'd have said it was really irritating and should be put back to the way it was. Now, however i find that it adds a little spice to the game. It certainly takes skill to rout a good player effectively.

Space

[Kocmoc]

puzz,

i wrote

Zitat[/b] ]imo we could go back more than jsut -2 moral, make it -4
but this should be combinated with a bit weaker cav.

go around and change jsut moral, i full agree with u....this wont help. but so many agree about the aspect, that the units stay too long now.

i wont discuss this all again, i just see many leave about this issue and we need changes.

back to the spearunit....



koc

[baz]

well changing the moral has made it a bit complicated and its true we all have differences with that aspect, however, one thing we can agree that if we can potentially play at lower florins then it will be better .. so like we have all agreed improving spears will enable us to play at lower moral levels while still having effective spear units at that level .. therefore lets try concentrate on the spears as koc stated


the pushback allows the charge of the cav to damage the spear unit and get a good start in the melee, try charging a spear in 1.0 and then in 1.1 you will notice the difference .. personally whether this is a good thing or not i dont beleive we will get it changed so i think wqe just need to improve the stats of spears slightly but that is easier said than done

How would you suggest improving the spears units of the game?

i am not talking about pushbacks or changing size im just talking either slight stat adjustment (vs cav/vs all) or slight price reduction (perhaps somewhere inbetween 1.0 and 1.1)

please guys lets try this simple and keep within the above criteria other changes are good suggestions but i feel they would be just too radical to implement.

[Puzz3D]

Making the cav a bit weaker doesn't make -4 morale ok unless you like VI v2.0 5k games. At 5k the morale is approximately 4 points below 15k and you cannot afford many cav knights. So, basically you can play that game right now in VI v2.0. My objection is that you remove the possibility to play the game the way the majority are currently playing it in 3v3 and 4v4. You would need 43k for each player to buy back the 4 morale. You also can't simulate 15k by playing 5k + morale off because +12 (morale off) -4 (playing at 5k) -4 (removal of 4 morale) is a net +4 morale.

[baz]

i urge for koc to mail his comments to me garrybibson@hotmail.com

[Puzz3D]

Baz,

Kocmoc is the one suggesting changing morale. Do you see any suggestion to change morale in my original list? I don't see any problem putting it back -2 to the original value, but recognize that lowering morale has the effect of driving up the florins used in games, and, if there is a playable game right now at 5k in VI v2.0, lowering morale will remove that gameplay. This is CBR's thread about the viability of 5k games in VI v2.0.

There are lots of ways to improve spears, but cost reduction is the method that has a minimal impact on single player. Improving the anti-cav factor is the way to do it if you don't want to change how the spear performs vs non-cav units. I think the anti-cav method is attractive for MP because it enhances the rock, paper, scissors aspect of the gameplay. I don't think this would adversely affect SP because the ai is quite good about picking favorable unit matchups.

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Quote[/b] (Kocmoc @ June 06 2003,05:39)]baz, u can easy change spears without making them strong vs other h2h units

as we have now the special stats vs cav.....so there is no prob with this.

the unit shouldnt be to weak vs other h2h units, i suggest a good defence but weak attack. but very good attack and defence vs cav. the moral should be normal.

but 1 important point is, the spear should be faster as other h2h units, not much ...just a bit....to make this unit a bit weak, lower the armour to 1 or 2.
this will make the historicans a bit happy as the unit can walk faster without heavy armour

its also important, that the unit is 60 men and avalaible for every faction. we have enougth 100 men spears, they are to slow, the turning speed is too slow as well. u cant flank with 100 men so nice.
a 60 men unit will be great.

just make sure this unit eat a cav and can hold vs h2h units.

like this 1 (8) 7(15)


koc

Hum...

Why do I keep thinking 'polearm' here?

JHI, billmen, swiss halb and the like are good enough cav killer IMO. +3/+1 and AP seems to do the job pretty fast.

Would a normal speed halberd with less armor and base honor 2 (instead of 0) be good enough? How would you cost that?

Matching up halberd vs CMAA is a sure way to lose. I think nearly all faction have halb (not muslim).

Morale wise... well depend on what kind of game you want to play... I am fine as it is and if I want to change, I just adjust fl level.

I am nearly ok with Yuuki list; my .02 USD on that.

To be more precise;
1/ fix cav swip bug
2/ fix MP crashing
3/ fix lobby separation
4/ improve slightly fatigue recovery rate so that endgame are not decided by exhausted vs very tired
5/ improve slightly spear (+2/+4 anti cav?); +2 morale of VI shall be spear only.

The anticav inf unit already exhist; it's not a spear unit, it's a polearm one.

Louis the Simurgh.

edit; and
6/ fix -ian

[Orda Khan]

Seemed like a bit of a rush fest to me.....

....Orda

[Skomatth]

Just give 100 man spears +2 morale. It would make them more viable at whatever florin level you like playing. IN 15k all units seems to stick around a little too long except 100 spears. So if you like that long sticking around, then spears with +2 would work for you. If you like lower florin levels it would make spears actually work for you. 100 man spears have in most cases about 2 less morale than all other units after being upgraded in any florin level.

edit: Except for the swipe thing, 60 man anti-cav works fine atm so I don't see a need to give them +2 morale. If Koc wants every faction to have them, well thats not gonna happen just cause of historical accuracy that the devs like and same with cav eating cav. However you have my mod koc which has both those things in it.

[baz]

Yuuki,
theres no need to get defensive with me all i said in my last post was lets concentrate on making spears a bit more worthwhile at lower florins .. from this assumption i thought we would be coming to a compromise where koc would get his less rigid moral and you would get effective spears, if you think thats a bad idea then let me know

are we going for improving spears or not?

[Skomatth]

I'm saying improve order foot by making their base morale 4, so that whatever florin lvl you like their morale will be 2 higher than now, b.c. they rout too easily compared to other units. I dont know any other spears base morale so I can't suggest anything for them. If anyone would like to be an unofficial beta team, I could mod the improvements as we go and we could see how they work.

[CBR]

Hm

Well its difficult for me to come with a final conclusion about 5k games. That requires playing a lot more games. But lets look at it.

Morale:

I dont feel it is so bad really. When people come with upgraded shock units yes my front spears have problems and it can turn into a big rout for my front units. But these armies with upgraded shock units normally lack good cavalry and will still lose even if it looks good for them in the start of a rush.

If the battle has lasted a long time fatigued units might have problems but I think that can be caused by people not having optimal armies (read: loads of shock only) and simply not used to the lower morale.



Cavalry:

Cavalry is an important part of your army. You can have a nice army without any cavalry or at least no heavy cavalry but you need spears and that is something I have seen people forget lots of times.

You cant expect to just buy loads of shock cav and rush the enemy to death. A balanced army (something we never see in 12k+ games anymore) will be a nice army to counter that and you cant buy much heavy cavalry anyway with 5k.



Army selection:

A 5k army is very much different than higher florin armies. I have mostly used a balanced army and I think its a nice army. As heavy cavalry kills shock units rather quickly you really need spears and as upgrading shock units is not an option, without severely weakening some other part of the army, they are an important part of your army and they dont really feel even with less morale compared to higher florins.

Although I have not tried all types of units.. but I would say that at 5k we actually see more units being interesting to buy: Javelins are not that bad for example.



So what is there to say about 5k then?

I would say its very much playable but people need to think differently when selecting units and not just try to copy their standard high florin armies. And the lower morale means you have to be more careful with certain units.. swords versus cav for example.

Yes you cant buy loads of super units as you are used to but then there are other units to buy.

Yes the gameplay is different but right now I wouldnt say its bad. We could use a morale increase I guess...+2 or +4 but I think +4 is actually too much.

But the biggest problem with 5k is the differences. People are used to buying certain units types and gameplay. The only way we are going to see more 5k games would take a huge attitude change that I dont think is possible. Maybe if someone hosted a 5k tournament we would see more people try it.

The 5k game has a much better feel when it comes to combined arms instead of the very IMO one dimensional gameplay at higher florins. Its a shame really. Yes 5k is not perfect as we always could use some cost changes to improve balance but I think its still a nice game at that florin level.

CBR

[Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe]

Bump of a worthy thread....

At 15k, spears have nearly completly disappeared (beside a few diehard..). 8 / 10 pumped up swords seems to be the norm.
It is getting somehow annoying.

At 5K, swords can't handle cav anymore. Then the question is can spears? Or as an alternative, can units like CFK, swiss halb, JHI (although the cost of those would prevent a real widespread use)? Or a Muwahid, Almughavar (those two are promising; got adequate morale) or a viking era Dismounted Nobles....? Case not closed yet, more game needed.
The one sure thing is that 8+ swords armies got a real tough time in 5k

Granted, it's getting selective on the spears used, and many won't be used because of their low morale. But guess what, at 15k, I would bet that even less unit are used; after all, all one needs is MS, FMAA, CMAA, and that's it.

All spears won't get usable before some got a too low morale to resist a cav heavy environment, and very little upgrade to boost them, but in today 15k game none are getting used; all in all, we may have more variety in 5k...

Still...

A few 5k specific problems (beside spears / overpowered cav question ) ;

- fatigue; well some complains that fatigue is too high... At 5k it just get much much worse. Way worse.
- more routing/rallying; that can make for fun game but also gets somehow tiring.

Louis,