LOL
Louis:
Earlier today I had decided to bump this thread in an attempt to continue the discussion, as we apparently have more people interested in 5k.
You have proven to be a faster clicker than me..yes not easy for me to admit that.
Ok I'll just have a nap and then its time for some 5k spamming
CBR
Well, toote pinned the .com topic, which might be worse curse for a thread ever... Who wants to got complety OT in a pinned topic... Worse than a death sentence that...
So here we go back on this good ol' thread
Louis,
I dont have any problems using even the basic spearmen. They are cheap and will block cav from wiping out my missile. Yes they might even lose against some super cav but I really dont care..they cost 150 and I dont expect them to hold that long anyway
The routing/rally thing..
I dont know..I must admit that I like being able to rally my army even if most or all has routed. Its easier to rout in 5k and we see more chain routs. If you want to stop an enemy from rallying you need to pursue and that now takes more effort/skill than before heh
Although we still need lots of playing to do I must say that I still find diversity a lot better in 5k. And I dont see cav being overpowered at all. Yesterday I tried my 8 cav/6 missile/2 spears army in a 3v3 and I wouldnt say it was that powerful but I will try it some more.
CBR
Problem might be more 6 miss than 8 cav....
Next thing, you will take 8 cav and 8 peasant, lose, and blame it on the cav
Other potential issues (sorry to state the obvious...) heard yesterday;
- doubling is fatal, I mean more fatal; teamwork is much harder as there is less time to react before one army get routed. Might end up with lot of double rushing being the most efficient strategy... One might argue that one shall not let allies get doubled in the first place, and help them fast... Map choice might help.
- some sheepherding complain; too easy to rout one army on its allies... Making mass route even easier.
Louis,
No I need the missile. I cant get much super cav for the 6 xbows anyway and then the army is a total rush army and I dont plan to charge right into a wall of spearsOriginally Posted by [b
Quote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 27 2003,17:50)]Problem might be more 6 miss than 8 cav....
Yes Yuuki said that normal maps was perhaps best which was what I was thinking too. Teamwork is more important now and less skilled players get killed quicker and right now most of us are less skilled heh.
Chain routs are easier..well what is there to say. I like good teamwork, I like to see a good plan give results (and less units fighting to the death) "better" than what Im used to in 15k. Maybe playing at v1 minimum for all units will make things different. But Im not finished with 5k at all
CBR
i think it's worth continuing. it gave the two games i played last nite a fresher feeling than i've had since vi was raised as the standard. 15k is getting stuck in a rut, the same tired strategies units etc. swords should get run over by even light cav, imo, not rout cav.
and i run at the drop of a hat anyway, so lets go
anyhoo, i'll be happy to play 5k with yas, it eliminates all the complicated unit/upgrades...
If 15K the rout takes a bit too long, in 5k it happens too quick. Thus it is harder to counter the rush. Chain routing is too rampant as well.
I've not had much success using 15k tactics and I might have to switch back to old STW tactics of the fast rush quick corner turn -- force opponent to turn units -- where upon the lines get gittery now --and get the 1st break... but even in STW there were guns to keep u honest. Increased morale effects means the first-break becomes all important... you could have poor tactics everywhere, but if you get the first rout ur opponent is done.
I'd like to see what happens in 10k games -- perhaps that is low enough to eliminate the 8 sword rush, but high enough morale to allow more unit independence and having a second line for reinforcements more viable
Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...
THE DEADLY SHINGEN
We had a few 9k and 10k battles shortly after VI came out. People complained about overpowered cav. IIRC you were one of them heh.
But it does kill unit diversity as you have money enough for the best units only. That already happens at around 7k.
At 7-8k cav gets too powerful. You can buy 8 or more and still be able to get standard foot/missile while the more balanced army doesnt have high enough morale to deal with the big number of cav. And spears starts to have problems as all the extra money is put into upgrades for swords.
CBR
yea i notice everyone stop posting on that thread once i pinned itQuote[/b] (Louis de la Ferte Ste Colombe @ Aug. 26 2003,21:41)]Well, toote pinned the .com topic, which might be worse curse for a thread ever... Who wants to got complety OT in a pinned topic... Worse than a death sentence that...
So here we go back on this good ol' thread
Louis,
how come?
blah.. 3 weeks without new post I will take it down, as usual.
but hmmm....
tootee,
because the originator took exception to his thread being taken off topic.
Mitch,
I think the 5k is ok, but you have to know the morale penalties and the morale of each unit. If you know that, you can get your units to fight for up to a minute or so. You really have to chase routed units all the way off the field or they will come back. It's not a good sight to see a 97 man enemy spear unit that you routed coming back. The double team and the quick move to the flank work well. There is a very small time window to respond to these kinds of moves. Position and chain routing are big factors in 5k. The rps seems to work, but any unit will quickly rout when flanked, although, morale 8 units that are flanked can probably fight to 1/2 strength before routing. You still have to pay attention to matchups because a bad one can easily chain rout you. That's why, if you have one cav knight vs three swords, the swords probably loose because the cav will hit the weakest sword and chain rout all three. If you split the swords up, the cav will just kill them one by one. The same can happen with polearms if the cav charge routs one of them, whereas a single spear can stand up to a cav knight because it cancels the charge as long as it's facing the cav. Conserving fatigue is very important because "vert tired" means -3 morale. Because you really have to chase in the 5k game, you can't conserve fatigue in the endgame, and you end up with many exhaused units. That's why the large maps don't seem well suited for 5k. I have seen a 5k game where the opposing units could not approach each other without routing. We had to end that game before a winner was determined.
_________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.
Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2
Hi Yuuk,
I see what u mean about the 5k tactics. I'm just not sure I enjoy the "feel" of the quick break games. I think there is nothing more frustrating to me than having units flee that are almost completely full -- the 95-man spear unit running from combat -- as the game norm. This can happen in the 15k games too, but just not as often or as easily as the 5k.
My thought about flanking and its affect "in reality on real troops" is that it breaks a unit for a number of reasons: troops don't like to be flanked, so yes they are more skittish, but just as important is they are losing men more rapidly because they are presumably double teamed (hit from front and side) and/or the troops were unable to adequately counter the attack. I believe a rout in real life was due to as much to the rapid loss of own men and the "fight not going well" as it was the mere fact the troops were suprised.
Col. Duprey has said suprise can be expressed as a 2x, 4x, or even 6x combat multiplier -- so it is extremely important, but again, he expresses it as a combat multiplier -- thus increasing lethality of the troops. M:TW expresses it as a morale hit and combat modifier, which is a valid method, but the question becomes how much should attributed to "pure morale" of troops "scared" by the flank maneuver and how much should be the morale hit that also applies from actual rapid troop loss-- which presumably occurs because the flanking troops get combat bonuses.
With 5k it seems that u can get routs where it is more pure "morale overload" and troop casualties are actually secondary. Flank a unit properly and u can "will" it to flee. I can deal with that in some circumstances (say particularly peasants flanked by cav), but as typical game-play for most situations it bugs me.
Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...
THE DEADLY SHINGEN
A major issue IMO... One got to choose tiring itself chasing router, then being pretty sure to have large issue with fatigue later, or to let routers rally, which is not the greatest option either. There is a big incentive now to have 1 'safe' unit, to keep it far far away from main line, thus being able to rally and avoiding mass 'game over' rout.
Louis,
Did any of you tried to look at 6K or 5.5K games?
Mitch
If we look at history you will find that most losses comes after the actual combat. Units dont need many losses before they will rout.
The "fight not going well" can mean a lot things: You see units in your line suddenly start running, your unit banner drops, enemy units suddenly in the flank where they were not supposed to be, rumour that the general died, a new formation suddenly appearing on the hill far away on your right flank (yes they might even be your own troops but you dont know thát so better run now to be sure) or just plain and simply that it doesnt look very good a few ranks in front of you as you see enemy troops chopping through all your mates.
I would say that in 5k MTW units in general fight longer than they did historically.
Of course there is always the question of the what one want in a game. I dont mind units to be nearly intact and still run. Im more concerned about why they run or if they run too quick.
In the 5k games so far I have seen my spears to work ok if standing in a proper line. But against a big enemy rush I will have major problems if Im still maneuvering with them or there are holes in the line.
About Duprey and surprise multipliers. Lets say you are "surprised" and half your units are facing the wrong direction and generally scattered over a larger area than if deployed. And then the big enemy rush comes. Most of your units gets doubled and flanked and quickly routs. We repeat the situation like this a hundred times and every time we look at the losses and compare to a standard battle.
The result would be a general combat multiplier that gives an effect like an increase in the attackers "lethality". Not because of attack modifiers but because you as a defender are not prepared, and therefore loses a lot quicker.
Now there might be some morale modifiers that would be nice if changed. The "just send big mob at enemy line and they will run" could be reduced. IIRC you do get some big modifiers for being outnumbered. And I still dont like losing bars just by standing( one after 20 min and another one aftr 40 minutes IIRC)
CBR
A possibly overlooked morale modifier...
Infantry charged, by cavalry, in the flank or when in loose/disordered: -6
Louis,
CB
Points well taken, in some ways we're saying very similar things.
I've been getting killed for many different reasons in 5k not the least of which is simple bad unit picks, so I know I'm doing a number of things wrong... but...
The thing I'm not happy about tho, is that on two occasions I've been hit by 1.5 armies and each time the far left guy can get an angle on my flank. Now I don't necessarily expect to win outnumbered, but when the main force is coming at my front and I try to simply peal off 2-3 units to the left to hold the flank, those guys immediately start flagging -- so what, I can't maneuver during an attack because it presents the side of units or disorders them a bit? Well then I'm cooked even before the armies touch.
Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...
THE DEADLY SHINGEN
Yes I see. Well Im saving most of my battles and will look at the interesting ones. Just to see if the big routs is just good attacking/bad defending or perhaps something with morale. If you have any replays Im always interested
Are you talking about front units or second line that you move?
CBR
I have not overlooked it
IMO its working ok...at least so far. Im still worried about an eventual removal of the swipe bug (no Im not saying it shouldnt be removed) and what the effect is.
Yes I know Im the Lancer guy that loves cav
I dont mind playing with my main foot armies..I really like them. But I dont think it will take that many changes before they will be the dominant armies.. and sometimes they already feel like the dominant army.
CBR
Mitch,
Remember the discussion about defensive formations such as the J hook, and how you can't have it in this game because the units are rectangular blocks and the blocks expose their flanks when you arrange them in a sharp curve? Note also that a unit becomes momentarily disordered if you move it in any direction other than straight ahead. Now couple those two things with the positional game (relatively low morale on many units) that 5k represents. See why defense is less viable, and the game becomes more geared to offensive moves?
In the 4v4 on the flat map where our left ally folded and you were pressured from front and left by two armies, I was later advised that CBR and I had to attack on the right to have any chance of winning that game. Well that's right because in trying to make defensive moves our three remaining armies simply ran away without fighting. You can have 5k games with a lot of sparing, but those are due to the playing style of the particular players involved and not because the game system is imposing that syle of play as the best one to follow. At 5k, offensive, fast moving actions are preferable and you'll see defensive minded players having a lot of trouble in these games. Forget about using reserves to counter a threat or bringing a unit from one flank to the other after the battleline engages because it's all over before the reserves even get up to the line, and, if you have an opportunity to flank the battleline, get your flankers out on the wings and forward before the main line meets.
BTW, sorry for saying you charged in that game. I looked at the replay, and it was our left ally who sent his remaining inf at the army in front of you. I mistook those units to be yours.
_________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.
Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2
Hi Yuuk,
Well I did a lot of ugly things that game, and I'm not sure my army was a good H2H army anyway. But I did notice apart from all those things that rear reinforcement or lateral shifts just destroy a unit's morale or are flat-out too late to make a difference and I think that hurts the game. Guys like Koc love the 5k game exactly because it is all about attack. I'm of the belief that defense/counter-attack needs to be an equally viable option.
BTW late last nite I had a good 15k game and was charged by a large (8/9)sword army backed by LBs and a few cav. Now, of my inf -- all were swords, but I only had 6, and 1 LB swing unit, 6 cav and 3 xbows and I crushed the sword army charge. I think that while everyone will be taking swords for their infantry, cavalry and xbows are still viable in the 15k game. It sux that there won't be a ton of variation in armies, but I liken that to chess... so maybe 15k is still playable.
I also wonder what 10k would do. It might be a better midpoint between 15 & 5k games.
Retreat? Hell, we're just attacking in a different direction...
THE DEADLY SHINGEN
Mitch,
I'm not saying the gameplay at 5k is worse than 15k. It's just different, but different in a way that hard to grasp unless you have a good understanding of all the morale penalty stuff. Although most of the morale penalties are known to those who dig for the info, there are still some that haven't been quantified. Certainly the rock, paper, scissors works better at 5k, and mobility and flanking is more important. However, the 5k game in VI is something like playing a SP campaign with zero star generals with a virture that gives +2 morale except that your units don't loose this intrinsic +2 morale if he dies. I've got to move away from a double team situation at 5k in MP, and I have to do it as soon as I notice it. Since units turn their backs on the enemy when they pull back and get a morale penalty if enemy units are nearby, I have to make any backward moves before the enemy gets near me. Likewise, if I see a double team on an ally, I have to arrive in support pretty much at the moment of contact or I might as well forget about going to help.
I had two 5k 3v3 games last night which demonstrates the difficulties a team taking predominantly infantry armies faces. My team took mostly inf with 8 or 9 cav distributed over the 3 armies. In both games I was center, and the enemy had balanced armies on the wings and an all cav army in the center. The threat of that center army to double team one wing forced my team to close ranks. In both games, that double team threat was directed at my left side ally, although, the center cav army didn't have to tip its hand by moving since it has high mobility. My left ally closed ranks with me in both games to avoid the double, but that opened his left flank. In the first game, my left ally moved very close to me and dropped his left flank back so he faced outward, and the enemy cav then enveloped almost all the way around to our rear on that side. We had trees behind us which gave rear protection from cav, and I didn't have to commit any units to face backwards, although I did send an xbow back there to keep the enemy cav at a distance. When the attack came it did rout a lot of my left ally, but I was close enough to get support there just in time to hold and turn back the attack. I'll have to look at the replay to understand why my army didn't chain rout. In the second game, my left ally shifted toward center (me), but maintained a front facing parallel to me and had a wider set than my ally in the first game. The enemy wing advanced and hit my ally's left while the center sent cav. I sent two cav to help which got there in time, but the one inf I sent didn't arrive in time despite it being my left most inf unit and my sending it within a second of when I saw the center cav make their move. In anycase, I was only able to help the right most unit of my ally with the cav I sent. If I shift left before the attack because my ally didn't come close enough to me, the enemy center can switch to attack our right side ally. This is how greater enemy mobility forces inf based allies to contract. I'm not saying it's bad or good. It's just my observation. When I looked at the replay of this battle, I saw instance after instance of inf support arriving too late throught the battle.
I think all these factors combine to make the maps play as though they are larger at 5k than what they seem at 15k for the inf player. The reduced fatigue rate that cav got in mtw v1.1 helps the cav take advantage of enveloping maneuvers made possible by the inf armies closing ranks. It appears to me that inf takes on more of a defensive character in 5k battles due to it's lack of mobility and need to cover its flanks at all times when facing cav on an open field which is probably historically correct. It's pretty suicidal to venture out in an open space with one or two inf units when there is cav around. I don't know what the effect of adopting single line inf and trying to comb the field would be since I don't play like that. Alternatively, the cav would be disadvantaged if it had to fight in trees or assault a strong point held by inf with protected flanks. Another thought is that anything giving morale penalties such as taking casualties from ranged fire or fighting uphill will be more of a factor at 5k.
There is one more disadvantage an infantry commander suffers if he gets enveloped. That is he can't keep all the enemy units in the field of view unless he has unlimited camera. He has to keep rotating the camera back and forth so not to miss an approching enemy unit. If you are trying to protect ranged units in different views from cav attacks, it's tricky and easy to miss an attack. The commander of the enveloping army doesn't have this problem. He can see the whole enemy army and probably most of his own units in a single view.
_________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.
Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2
Other consequence of playing 5k, it seems to make missile war somehow more interesting.
1/ No armor upgrade means missile units loses / win faster and ends up with possibly more ammo and less tired... Somehow mitigated by the current widespread use of loose missile... But potentially the winner of a missile war will be able to make more damage on ennemy line than in 15k
2/ possibly more vulnerable to cav skirmish; no armor upgrade = reduced defense; pav on H/H may be less stucky now.
3/ Bows got more of a chance; a3 pav xbow were way too armored for them. Now v0a0w0 pav xbow are somehow more doable. Still not recommanded though.
I am rather happy with the impact of 5k on missile war, too bad we don't see more of them at those fl level due to hummm a larger incentive to quickly double an opponent
Louis,
Yes Louis missles do seem play better in 5k as long as everyone is taking some, and the lack of mobility and higher cost of the pavise units seems to be more of a drawback and an incentive to use the non-pavise type. However, missle units are relatively more expensive in 5k than they are in 15k games with their substantial base cost and little money available for discounted upgrades which, as TekiSeki said, opens the possibility of effective no missle armies in 5k. For instance, an fmaa at 175 florins is less expensive than a basic archer or xbow. Maybe fatigue, losses while advancing across no man's land and the morale penalty from taking casualties from missles balances out the higher combat power of the no missle army in 5k. I don't think we know the answer to that yet, but I think we are about to find out in the next round of 5k games.
_________Designed to match Original STW gameplay.
Beta 8 + Beta 8.1 patch + New Maps + Sound add-on + Castles 2
..
I have seen the future of TW MP and it is XBox Live!
play some 5k battles the other week
Hm I dont agree on that.
Spears work fine in 5k but not in 15k. Upgrading in 15k gives some hybrids more power while in 5k some might be too weak (especially javelins) Arqs are nice in 5k but the much higher morale in 15k means their primary role has to be melee or not buy them at all.
Each florin/morale level will have its own problems and sometimes you cant solve one problem without causing problems at another level. Some problems are simply not noticed in 15k because they are not problems at that level.
CBR
..
I have seen the future of TW MP and it is XBox Live!
And what is wrong with spears then?
Even in 5k arqs are hardly a unit to count on (but at least they only cost 175) Yes I guess they work when their targets are very tired/exhausted but having to save them for that last phase does limit their use considerable.
Just take Lancers. The standard 15k game makes Lancers too good as the player doesnt have to make any compromises when buying them (maybe one or two less upgrades but thats it) In a game with less florins he suddenly has to buy not as good foot if he wants them. And that is the same with most "super" units (the best of one unit type) the Lancer is just the most obvious.
Lots of units are being used in low florin games but not in high florin games. That is simply not something that can ever be spotted in low florin games. And it cannot be corrected unless you want to give each unit some kind of special ability that everyone wants.
Yes I guess there could be some basic stuff that could be spotted but when I play a 5k and then a 15k game I see 2 different games which has their own problems.
CBR
try them at v3 for 5k games, and v4w2 for 15k games. they are fine h2h units when need to, hold long enof... and their blast when enemy is tired simply extend their flexibility.. one of the most creative units to play around with.
Lol yes you are right.
Heavily upgraded because of the missile cost reduction when upgrading. Same system that gives some missile units armour 3 and has bored some people for months now. Upgrading that turns missile/hybrids into very capable h2h units. In 1.1 it turned Handgunners into very overpowered units (now they cost more so I guess they are not, I havent tried them yet)
The cost reduction system that isnt felt much in 5k (although there are still a few problems) but just gets worse and worse the higher you get in florins. And just to make it clear: I hate this missile cost reduction. Would be much better if we just could get cheaper missile units.
Yes you could call it creative and some likes to play with upgrading and hell yes I can understand that. But as you see in other threads here and on .com you see other people also wanting to reduce upgrading because its the main reason for balance problems.
If we were ever going to play a World War 2: Total war I am of the boring kind that expects German King Tigers to be the best (although slow) tank...I couldnt care less about Sherman tanks with 3 armour and 4 weapon upgrades that suddenly turns in Tiger killers.
If I in Napoleon: Total War buys some veteran French Old Guard Infantry units I dont want them wiped out by some Preussian Landsturm unit just because it has a load of valour flags on it.
Just as I in Medieval: Total War hate to see units that are supposed to be weak in melee suddenly being able to stop cav charges.
But thats just OT ranting. Yes arqs are fine if given lots of upgrades..not to improve their original role as a missile unit but melee.
CBR
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